This is the fourth and final part of our Misunderstood Texts about Jesus series with Bill Schlegel. In this episode he offers remarks on Philippians 2.5-6, Colossians 2.9, and Revelation 1.17. After this, I ask him one of the biggest questions on this subject: if Jesus isn’t God then how can his sacrifice possibly pay for our sins? As usual Schlegel points out that this is not a biblical question–Jesus never asked it, Paul never asked it, and John never asked it. If no one ever makes this point in scripture, maybe we should wonder why our questions are so out of line with theirs?
—— Links ——
- Check out the other episodes in the Misunderstood Texts about Jesus series.
- To learn about Schlegel’s backstory, listen to Interview 31: Master’s University Prof. Finds Son of God, Loses Job
- Check out his excellent book, the Satellite Bible Atlas
- Follow Bill Schlegel on his blog or on YouTube
- For an extensive list of verses and explanations from a biblical unitarian perspective, visit christianmonotheism.com (use the scripture index on the right)
- Watch “Five Major Problems with the Trinity” on YouTube
- Intro music: Jazzy Frenchy by bensound.com. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License.
Sean, thanks for having Bill on for this fantastic series. I’m sorry that it’s over (can’t you find some more misunderstood texts). Regarding the title ‘the first and the last’, I’m thinking, rather than trying to figure out in what way he is the first and in what way he is the last, perhaps it is just an idiom meaning something like ‘ the only one in a class’. So when applied to Yahweh means he alone is God the creator. When applied to Messiah, he is the only human to hold the specific place or position which he holds – the firstborn, the head , etc. Thanks again, and keep up the good work!
Sean, can we do a three participant interview with Troy on Hebrews 1? Please!
Let’s talk on email. Sounds interesting.
I would be very interested in what your discussion reveals, especially after Dr. Michael Brown made such a bruhaha about Hebrews 1:10 last evening (and later on his website). I think Dr. Tuggy did not have time to give exegesis on the ideas presented in Heb 1 in quick debate format.
I feel I understand what Dr. Schlegel would say: Hebrews is written for converted Jews, telling them that Jesus is messiah, by establishing he has dominion (and, as Tuggy tried to say last pm, that he is a new creation/first born to this position) and that he is mediator. The references to Yahweh underscore these points and do not imply that Jesus is YHVH.
Still, your thoughtful discussion could be very beneficial to us meager minds… thank you!
Wonderful interview! As always, it’s so comforting to hear explanations identical to my own. One thought I believe will help with the notion that “it had to be God that died” is:
Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient because of GRACE …. NOT because of math.
HOLY COW this series of four is tremendous! THANK YOU both for dedicating your time to the edification of the lay person.
I was especially interested in hearing Dr. Schlegel’s retrospective views on what he thought about some of these arguments when he was a Trinitarian. I do not think we hear these thoughts often because Trinitarians are loathe to say them out loud. They just keep them hidden in those deep, dark places. He is a wealth of knowledge!
Sean,
You’ve never heard of first and last as unique? Think about the Isaiah text: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides Me there is no god.” Even in the way that Trinitarians and deity-of-Christ believers understand this text, it means “unique” or “only one”, even though they don’t realize this. With them, they are seeing Jesus as that same guy, or at least that he can be called the same magical title due to his being the same nature — and yet, what God says is very plain.
With Jesus, in the relevant passages in Revelation, he’s the first and last that died and came to life again. As far as the beginning and the end, the arche and telos: isn’t that very similar to Jesus being the archegon and teleioten of our faith? I mean, he’s the all there, and what we look to in order to have eternal life. I think that this dovetails nicely with him being the first and last that died and came to life again, and also with the Isaiah context, where God is the first and with the last, calling the generations from the beginning. In the Christian age, Christ is calling them like his Father was, and his Father is through him. Jesus became the source of salvation, and I think that this works well with him. I think that this ALSO fits well with, “it is finished: I am the alpha and the omega [etc.]”, being that it is through the life he laid down, when that work from the Father was finished, that he receives such authority so as to become the source of salvation through faith in his resurrection from the dead.
I hope that this helps!
If any of this was said in a previous episode, then I’m sorry, as I started listening to them backwards after the Tuggy-Brown debate, and came here to comment because I just listened to the next episode after this one, where you’d said to come and comment here if we had anything to say about what Troy brought up!
Much love!
-Jon
Jesus must not be any part of God in order to be our redeeming Savior, It’s actually just the opposite. God could not be the one to die for us – why? Because of justice! There are things God can not do like lie but he also could not be unjust! This is also a legal situation when we are talking about justice! The first Adam was given authority, a kingship over the earth realm. He, Adam gave that authority away, relinquished it to Satan. Now that, in a sense tied Gods hands so to speak because God could not legally save us himself! He needed a real man, son of Adam, to perfectly live a sinless life, earning the right over sin and death to deliver us and regain the legal right of authority over this creation, taking back the keys, overcoming Satan, and regaining this realm called earth to invite God back into it as the ruler! God in a sense was banished from His own creation and Jesus, he second Adam is reuniting man to God, Hallelujah! If Jesus was any part of God then that disqualifies Jesus from being our savior and we are hopelessly lost in our sin! All praise and glory to our Messiah and King for reuniting us to our God and Father, and ultimately bringing / reuniting heaven to earth!