We’re taking a break this week from our class on Reading the Bible for Yourself. By the way, did you know that there’s a separate podcast just for classes without any interruptions like this? You can find it if you search your podcast app for Restitutio Classes. Anyhow, I had an opportunity to speak with Dr. Dale Tuggy about his recent debate with Dr. James White and wanted to share that conversation with you now rather than waiting until the end of this class.
On March 9, 2024 in Houston Texas at the First Lutheran Church, Dale Tuggy debated James White on the question, “Is Jesus Yahweh?” White affirmed and Tuggy denied. Just to give you a little background on these two scholars, James White is a professor of Apologetics at Grace Bible Theological Seminary and has a bachelors from Grand Canyon University, a masters from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a doctorate of ministry from Columbia Evangelical Seminary. He has participated in over 180 public moderated debates and has written the book The Forgotten Trinity in which he presented his case that the Trinity is biblical. Dale Tuggy is an Analytic Theologian who has a bachelors from BIOLA, a masters from Claremont School of Theology, and a Ph.D. from Brown University. He’s the chair of the Unitarian Christian Alliance and the author of What Is the Trinity?, which explains the major Trinity theories and the problems each faces. In what follows, I ask Tuggy how he thought the debate went.
Listen to this episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts
The debate lasted over two hours and is accessible on YouTube. The format of the debate was as follows:
- Opening Statement (25 min each)
- Rebuttal (10 min each)
- Cross Examination (10 min each)
- Concluding Statement (5 min each)
- Audience Questions (20 min total)
Here’s the video:
—— Links ——
- More interviews with Dale Tuggy here
- Visit Tuggy’s website at trinities.org
- Check out his books on Amazon, especially What Is the Trinity?
- Get Philip Kapusta’s book on Hebrews
- Read Thomas Gaston’s article on Hebrews 1.10-12
- Get the transcript of this episode
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Great interview! Thanks for sharing.
Joke: Just for clarification: at 49:45 Dale is obviously referring to the size of one’s philosophical system and nothing else. James White claims he has a bigger one. =p
Hello Dale and Sean,
Great interview. I listened to this first and then actually went and listened to the debate. Overall I believe James and Dale were somewhat talking past one another and debating a different subject. While I’m not a scorecard keeping debate expert I largely think Dale somewhat missed the main thoroughfare of this debate and focused on a different subject than the main debate question “Is Jesus YHWH?”
James White went right at this debate question with trying to give texts he believed supported this view in his opening, and Dale mainly argued against the dual-natured Jesus in his opening. While both debaters have their merits on these points, they missed one another. I can see why Dale thinks James didn’t adequately answer most of his main points(because James didn’t, he dismissed them). I can also see why James thinks Dale didn’t really deal with his “Jesus is YHWH” texts well enough and probably expected some more direct references to this since the both of you shared opening statements since 10 minutes isn’t really enough in a rebuttal to properly answer them. I know that an opening is not meant to address the other person’s opening–but it seems Dale was arguing “Is Jesus dual-natured(a God/man)?” and not “Is Jesus YHWH?” in his opening. From there, the debate opened up a bit more but both debaters felt unanswered. I think if Dale had focused more on why others could be called “YHWH” representationally, or the “LORD/lord” issue in more depth, especially showing if anything Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 was likely referencing Psalm 110:1 and not changing the Sh’ma as a counterpoint his arguments may have had more force to it. White still just tries to dismiss anything he thinks challenges his theological box and assumes his interpretations are Scripture themselves. He really didn’t have a clue where Dale was going with the “Is the Father YHWH?,” “Is Jesus YHWH?” and “Is YHWH triune?” style questions. He’s never just sat and wrote down these statements to realize they’re valid questions and cannot be made to work without creating modalism or tri-theism. I think Dale said it well roughly that the only difference between James White and a modalist is that he says he isn’t one.
Dale is free to correct my understanding–this is just my observation. It was a really good debate though. Glad White is finally trying to address Biblical Unitarianism rather than just dismissing it as online fad of philosophizing Christians.