We’ve seen a couple of perspectives, but my guest today is bringing in a third view to our exploration of this important topic. Growing up with the belief that tongues were the only evidence of salvation, Pastor Victor Gluckin eventually changed his view to accept more diversity in how the spirit shows up in believers’ lives.
Victor Gluckin attended George Washington University, the University at Albany, and the Atlanta Bible College, studying political science, history, Judaic studies, and theology. He served as the assistant pastor at Living Faith Christian Church in Warwick, RI for thirteen years before becoming the lead pastor there in 2018 (where he continues to serve). He’s been an influential mentor and lifelong friend of mine, and I think you’ll appreciate his candor and tone even if you see spiritual manifestations differently.
12 thoughts on “379 Gifts of the Spirit for the Common Good (Victor Gluckin)”
Greetings brother/sister;
I was listening to Victor Gluckin on the 1st part of Gift of the Spirit for the common good. I have a few comments about what he said about when we receive Yehovah’s spirit and the spirit of the Messiah Jesus in our lives.
First the question about when one receives the spirit. There is only one mention of people receiving the holy spirit prior to baptism and that is Cornelius [a non-Jew] and those that were with him in his house. Prior to that manifistation of the spirit to Cornelius and those gathered with him it is obvious he had been led for quite awhile by the spirit of Yehovah before he sought out to met with Peter as he was directed to my the angel that was sent to him to do so! There are only two mentions of people receiving the holy spirit after baptism and that is the converts from the Samaritans and the people Paul met with who were disciples of John and were believers but knew nothing about the holy spirit. The Samaritan were hated and pushed aside as irrevilent by the Jews and the reason they didn’t recieve the spirit at baptism was that the spirit of Jesus wanted to direct the Jewish apostles to go to them and lay hands on them and witness their receiving of the spirit. This would eliminate any hostility between Jewish and Samaritan believers. With the 10-12 men who were disciples of John they had been baptized and when Paul realized they knew nothing about the holy spirit he surly taught them about the necessity of receiving the spirit and then they did.
So for the most part all the rest of those who were baptized received the holy spirit at that time. It is possible that even today Yehovah could decide to allow someone to receive the spirit prior to baptism or after baptism, absolutely, but it would be an isolated case, not a common practice.
At any rate, no one comes to believe in the Lord Messiah Jesus unless they are drawn by the spirit of Yehovah. That drawing by the spirit of Yehovah could begin at ones birth as Paul said of himself.
Those who believe and led by the spirit of Yehovah have come to the place of dying to self through repentance and coming to believe the message the Yehovah gave the Messiah to give to all who hear it are then ready for baptism. So before they enter the waters of baptism they have repented led to do so by the spirit of Yehovah and died to self, prepared to live for the lord Messiah Jesus. Now they enter the water and are completely immersed and then raised up to newness of life as new creations in the Messiah having received the spirit of Yehovah. So in order to have a new life in the Messiah Jesus, you have to die to self through repentance before you can experience the newness of life in the Messiah.
So we see that receiving the spirit of Yehovah does not rule out the spirit’s prior rule in our hearts!
Again we ask when do we receive the spirit of Yehovah in the specific sense of anointing, as a seal and a pledge?
It is at baptism, accompanied by faith and repentance that we receive the spirit in these three aspects. It is baptism that makes baptism meaningful and efficacious.
So we see that one cannot claim to be a Christian unless one has the spirit of Yehovah and the spirit of the Messiah Jesus endwelling them.
I didn’t quote the scriptures that prove what I have said as I know you are well aware of what I have been referring to.
Your brother in the lord Messiah Jesus,
Pastor Bruce Lyon
Gregg and Victor’s talks are so wonderful. I always knew the tongue thing was false but to hear grown men tell how they came to the truth is so helpful. To know there are honest, normal people out there not taken away with this. ajc
Fine job
.Finally got around to the most important The fruit is the proof as well as the evidence. I like Sean would say no about speaking in tongues.
Thx Kent
Thank you for inviting comments on your discussion of “tongues.” I was struck by the fact that no reference was made to the companion gift of translation (interpretation). Paul is clear that no one person has all the gifts. If we are as you say in search of authentic biblical Christianity, would we not focus on all the gifts, and especially the companion gift of translation by a different person than the “tongues” speaker? Self-interpretation all the time does not match the biblical model, and any claims would be far more convincing if they reflected Paul’s teaching on this. My other point is: what evidence can you produce that any of the current claimed “tongues” are real languages?
Thank you for your continued discussion. I agree with you entirely that both self-interpretation and interpretation by another who has that particular gift are presented by Paul. However, how do you reconcile the idea of authenticity in what your church is doing with the fact that we hear only self-interpretation? Would you not be more obviously authentic if you followed the NT pattern given by Paul? On the question of real language, masses of research has been done by linguists and the evidence of real language was in general not found to match the claims of tongues speakers.
I’ve really enjoyed this series. My perspective on tongues has certainly changed in the last few years.
One point that never came up that I hear often is that speaking in tongues is “perfect prayer”. This is taken from Romans 8:26 where our infirmity/weakness is that we don’t know what to pray for and speaking in tongues is supposed to overcome that. I would be very interested to see the three perspectives on that.
As I understand Romans 8:26, the spirit/breath is ours which groans in prayer at times, not in some unknown tongue but in groaning sounds. This is seen more clearly by looking at an interlinear and not capitalizing with an “S”, and also understanding that “pneuma” is “breath” and “autos” is “it”, not “he”. My translation:
“Likewise now also the breath cooperates with our weakness, for the things we should pray for as needed we know not, but it, the breath, makes intercession with inexpressible groanings.”
I would do the same for verse 27:
“And the One searching the hearts knows what is the intent of the breath because according to God it intercedes for the saints.”
Amazed to hear myself being quoted on your podcast! I’ve been enjoying the balanced and open exchange of views, and I’m glad you enjoyed mine.
I’ve not yet heard a full cessation of gifts case made, and appreciate that you may have this planned for later sessions. If all of this is due to be covered – then just ignore me for now.
The case doesn’t seem to be heard very often, and when I do hear it they always seem to miss out some scriptural passages that I would say are important.
The one passage that is always used is 1 Cor 13:8-13, but what about it’s similar companion Eph 4:11-18.
They both speak of the ending of apostolic times, one of the end of apostolic gift manifestations and the other of the offices of apostle and prophet etc., each given for the perfection of the saints and building up the body of Christ – until (Eph 4:13) ‘we come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man.’ This matches the word in Corinthians ‘until that which is perfect/mature has come’. So that both passages seem to be pointing to a maturity in the individual Christian and the Church, which is nothing to do with the return of Jesus.
But rather the church reflecting Christ, as Eph 4:13 goes on to say “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”
Which parallels the passage about looking in a mirror with increased clarity, which is scripturally always a symbol of self-reflection, as we see what manner of man we are, to know ourselves as God knows our hearts, thus we seek to emulate Jesus in our lives. (James 1:22-24). Not having our understanding darkened as with the other Gentiles (Eph 4:18), having a new life in Christ.
Both passages talk about being like children:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Again this is talking about growing up into a maturity.
Isn’t this the time when your father removes the training wheels from your bike and you choose where you will go next, and you stand on your own two feet as a mature adult? Being prepared by God for the world, as the body of Christ ready to see how we make way on our own.
And what about an Old Testament precedent?
The fact that God gave gifts of the holy spirit to craftsmen to build the Tabernacle in the wilderness.
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Exo 31:6 And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;
Exo 31:7 The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle,
Do we think that they passed these skills down to their sons and through the generations, or were these gifts specifically given to allow the building up of the dwelling place of God?
The idea that specific gifts were given for specific purposes does not negate or deny all of the other actions of God in the nation of Israel, or over the years with the lives of the faithful Christian. It is just an understanding that God has a plan, and uses various means, at various times to bring elements of that plan about.
We now each have an individual responsibility to respond appropriately, to what God has offered us.
:
As to the question ‘what are people actually doing, if not exhibiting a gift from God?’
I would suggest that it is a version of what drama students sometimes learn under the heading of Improv, where they train themselves to speak ‘gibberish’.
As you may know, many linguists and scientists have studied the “speaking in tongues” phenomenon.
I previously recommended the book “Speaking in Tongues” by Dr. Felicitas Goodman, an internationally accredited translator and interpreter.
Dr. Goodman said that “after hearing and becoming familiar with the glossolalia of the type about which I report,” she analyzed audio recordings of people under LSD.
She described their “behavior in agreement with glossolalia manifestation. I felt as if this LSD induced vocalization episode were a foreign language.”
She also notes that “it is thought that in epilepsy the cortex is driven by discharges from subcortical structures.
I am proposing that something similar is happening during glossolia.”
No it is just of the flesh. People do it because the pastors tell them it is of the spirit. I have seen people called up to the altar at church over and over and told to just start saying words. And these were adults.
Greetings brother/sister;
I was listening to Victor Gluckin on the 1st part of Gift of the Spirit for the common good. I have a few comments about what he said about when we receive Yehovah’s spirit and the spirit of the Messiah Jesus in our lives.
First the question about when one receives the spirit. There is only one mention of people receiving the holy spirit prior to baptism and that is Cornelius [a non-Jew] and those that were with him in his house. Prior to that manifistation of the spirit to Cornelius and those gathered with him it is obvious he had been led for quite awhile by the spirit of Yehovah before he sought out to met with Peter as he was directed to my the angel that was sent to him to do so! There are only two mentions of people receiving the holy spirit after baptism and that is the converts from the Samaritans and the people Paul met with who were disciples of John and were believers but knew nothing about the holy spirit. The Samaritan were hated and pushed aside as irrevilent by the Jews and the reason they didn’t recieve the spirit at baptism was that the spirit of Jesus wanted to direct the Jewish apostles to go to them and lay hands on them and witness their receiving of the spirit. This would eliminate any hostility between Jewish and Samaritan believers. With the 10-12 men who were disciples of John they had been baptized and when Paul realized they knew nothing about the holy spirit he surly taught them about the necessity of receiving the spirit and then they did.
So for the most part all the rest of those who were baptized received the holy spirit at that time. It is possible that even today Yehovah could decide to allow someone to receive the spirit prior to baptism or after baptism, absolutely, but it would be an isolated case, not a common practice.
At any rate, no one comes to believe in the Lord Messiah Jesus unless they are drawn by the spirit of Yehovah. That drawing by the spirit of Yehovah could begin at ones birth as Paul said of himself.
Those who believe and led by the spirit of Yehovah have come to the place of dying to self through repentance and coming to believe the message the Yehovah gave the Messiah to give to all who hear it are then ready for baptism. So before they enter the waters of baptism they have repented led to do so by the spirit of Yehovah and died to self, prepared to live for the lord Messiah Jesus. Now they enter the water and are completely immersed and then raised up to newness of life as new creations in the Messiah having received the spirit of Yehovah. So in order to have a new life in the Messiah Jesus, you have to die to self through repentance before you can experience the newness of life in the Messiah.
So we see that receiving the spirit of Yehovah does not rule out the spirit’s prior rule in our hearts!
Again we ask when do we receive the spirit of Yehovah in the specific sense of anointing, as a seal and a pledge?
It is at baptism, accompanied by faith and repentance that we receive the spirit in these three aspects. It is baptism that makes baptism meaningful and efficacious.
So we see that one cannot claim to be a Christian unless one has the spirit of Yehovah and the spirit of the Messiah Jesus endwelling them.
I didn’t quote the scriptures that prove what I have said as I know you are well aware of what I have been referring to.
Your brother in the lord Messiah Jesus,
Pastor Bruce Lyon
very good
Gregg and Victor’s talks are so wonderful. I always knew the tongue thing was false but to hear grown men tell how they came to the truth is so helpful. To know there are honest, normal people out there not taken away with this. ajc
Fine job
.Finally got around to the most important The fruit is the proof as well as the evidence. I like Sean would say no about speaking in tongues.
Thx Kent
Thank you for inviting comments on your discussion of “tongues.” I was struck by the fact that no reference was made to the companion gift of translation (interpretation). Paul is clear that no one person has all the gifts. If we are as you say in search of authentic biblical Christianity, would we not focus on all the gifts, and especially the companion gift of translation by a different person than the “tongues” speaker? Self-interpretation all the time does not match the biblical model, and any claims would be far more convincing if they reflected Paul’s teaching on this. My other point is: what evidence can you produce that any of the current claimed “tongues” are real languages?
Thank you for your continued discussion. I agree with you entirely that both self-interpretation and interpretation by another who has that particular gift are presented by Paul. However, how do you reconcile the idea of authenticity in what your church is doing with the fact that we hear only self-interpretation? Would you not be more obviously authentic if you followed the NT pattern given by Paul? On the question of real language, masses of research has been done by linguists and the evidence of real language was in general not found to match the claims of tongues speakers.
I’ve really enjoyed this series. My perspective on tongues has certainly changed in the last few years.
One point that never came up that I hear often is that speaking in tongues is “perfect prayer”. This is taken from Romans 8:26 where our infirmity/weakness is that we don’t know what to pray for and speaking in tongues is supposed to overcome that. I would be very interested to see the three perspectives on that.
As I understand Romans 8:26, the spirit/breath is ours which groans in prayer at times, not in some unknown tongue but in groaning sounds. This is seen more clearly by looking at an interlinear and not capitalizing with an “S”, and also understanding that “pneuma” is “breath” and “autos” is “it”, not “he”. My translation:
“Likewise now also the breath cooperates with our weakness, for the things we should pray for as needed we know not, but it, the breath, makes intercession with inexpressible groanings.”
I would do the same for verse 27:
“And the One searching the hearts knows what is the intent of the breath because according to God it intercedes for the saints.”
yes ajc
Amazed to hear myself being quoted on your podcast! I’ve been enjoying the balanced and open exchange of views, and I’m glad you enjoyed mine.
I’ve not yet heard a full cessation of gifts case made, and appreciate that you may have this planned for later sessions. If all of this is due to be covered – then just ignore me for now.
The case doesn’t seem to be heard very often, and when I do hear it they always seem to miss out some scriptural passages that I would say are important.
The one passage that is always used is 1 Cor 13:8-13, but what about it’s similar companion Eph 4:11-18.
They both speak of the ending of apostolic times, one of the end of apostolic gift manifestations and the other of the offices of apostle and prophet etc., each given for the perfection of the saints and building up the body of Christ – until (Eph 4:13) ‘we come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect man.’ This matches the word in Corinthians ‘until that which is perfect/mature has come’. So that both passages seem to be pointing to a maturity in the individual Christian and the Church, which is nothing to do with the return of Jesus.
But rather the church reflecting Christ, as Eph 4:13 goes on to say “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ”
Which parallels the passage about looking in a mirror with increased clarity, which is scripturally always a symbol of self-reflection, as we see what manner of man we are, to know ourselves as God knows our hearts, thus we seek to emulate Jesus in our lives. (James 1:22-24). Not having our understanding darkened as with the other Gentiles (Eph 4:18), having a new life in Christ.
Both passages talk about being like children:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Again this is talking about growing up into a maturity.
Isn’t this the time when your father removes the training wheels from your bike and you choose where you will go next, and you stand on your own two feet as a mature adult? Being prepared by God for the world, as the body of Christ ready to see how we make way on our own.
And what about an Old Testament precedent?
The fact that God gave gifts of the holy spirit to craftsmen to build the Tabernacle in the wilderness.
Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exo 31:4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exo 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Exo 31:6 And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;
Exo 31:7 The tabernacle of the congregation, and the ark of the testimony, and the mercy seat that is thereupon, and all the furniture of the tabernacle,
Do we think that they passed these skills down to their sons and through the generations, or were these gifts specifically given to allow the building up of the dwelling place of God?
The idea that specific gifts were given for specific purposes does not negate or deny all of the other actions of God in the nation of Israel, or over the years with the lives of the faithful Christian. It is just an understanding that God has a plan, and uses various means, at various times to bring elements of that plan about.
We now each have an individual responsibility to respond appropriately, to what God has offered us.
:
As to the question ‘what are people actually doing, if not exhibiting a gift from God?’
I would suggest that it is a version of what drama students sometimes learn under the heading of Improv, where they train themselves to speak ‘gibberish’.
Mr. Fenton,
Did you listen to my show? https://restitutio.org/2021/02/25/380-test-the-spirits-carlos-jimenez/
I’d be very interested to read your feedback.
As you may know, many linguists and scientists have studied the “speaking in tongues” phenomenon.
I previously recommended the book “Speaking in Tongues” by Dr. Felicitas Goodman, an internationally accredited translator and interpreter.
Dr. Goodman said that “after hearing and becoming familiar with the glossolalia of the type about which I report,” she analyzed audio recordings of people under LSD.
She described their “behavior in agreement with glossolalia manifestation. I felt as if this LSD induced vocalization episode were a foreign language.”
She also notes that “it is thought that in epilepsy the cortex is driven by discharges from subcortical structures.
I am proposing that something similar is happening during glossolia.”
carlos@thehumanjesus.org
No it is just of the flesh. People do it because the pastors tell them it is of the spirit. I have seen people called up to the altar at church over and over and told to just start saying words. And these were adults.