Abortion has been and remains a hot-button issue in our culture at large and even within some corners of Christianity. In this episode Jerry Wierwille will explain the issues with the only biblical text that directly addresses this subject (Exodus 21.22-5). In addition to exegeting this confusing passage, Wierwille also draws on evidence from Psalm 51 before discussing some of the big picture ethical issues related to modern abortions.
I agree with Matthew Elton that Numbers 5 also has some interesting information on abortion beliefs during OT times. It is fascinating that with the Exodus 21 v 22 scriptures that there is no further written testimonies within historic findings from that time regarding final priest rulings on various cases, and this could be also said for Numbers 5 beginning with vs 11. Also, as much as the abortion issue is in the forefront of today’s “christian” movement, it certainly wasn’t front and center in Jesus’ teachings. Jesus, being a Jew, must have thought life began at “breath”, as that was the Torah teachings of the time I believe. Conception was not a beginning of life model. Jeremiah 1 v 5 doesn’t really add any clarity to the issue either. Since I believe, Jews thought the child to be a possession of the mother, then perhaps it was given the same status as the beaten but surviving slave?? From what I can find from a site “The Fetus in Jewish Law,” it appears that breath and exiting of the womb is required in order to give the fetus “life” status. It also says that a criminal woman, if she is pregnant, would be executed regardless of her pregnancy up until the point she is in labor, at which time the execution would be halted to allow birth. It is a complicated issue with many facets, and I appreciate Jerry’s attempt to address biblical comments on the subject of abortion as well as Sean’s comments. God bless.
I think your podcast could have done more in helping people to understand the seriousness of abortion. Abortion is dark, it is evil and demonic. “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Eph 5:11)
As Christians, we know that life begins at conception, and not at birth which is the ongoing of human development. At conception everything is biologically in place for a human being – life begins. Abortion therefore is the killing of children.
It seems unfortunate that in your discussion, you were significantly short on scriptural references, and therefore you will find the following of benefit, which are just some of the scriptures which Christians have prayerfully considered as relevant to the pro-life cause.
Gen 1:27; Ex 1:16-22; 4:11; Job 10:11,12; 31:15; Ps 22:9,10; 127:3-5; 139:13-16; Isa 49:15; Jer 1:5; Luke 1:41-44; Gal 1:15
So then, what about someone who has had an abortion and is now feeling the pain of loss and guilt. A person’s greatest need is forgiveness, and Jesus’ sacrifice covers all sin, including abortion – there is hope in Christ if we turn to him.
Interesting thoughts Kim, but I believe that as a Christian we must live with Jesus’ teachings on the topic, not historical Jews. Jesus said not to kill and to love. Abortion goes against both of his commands.
It also seems to me that the Exodus verses are in regards to an accident causing a miscarriage, not an intentional abortion. The Bible does not say, don’t have an abortion, but it does say not to kill and to love, so that covers the issue of abortion better than any of those OT verses that we try to read it into.
There are two topics. The one discussed here, “Does the Bible Support Abortion?” and that should be an easy answer as a Christian. Don’t kill. The second issue is on when life starts, which it seems to be the issue actually discussed.
Well said Miranda! I agree that the discussion was a bit weak in making a firm biblical stand against killing unborn babies.
As Christians we must be looking at the root of the problem, which overall is sex outside of marriage. If that was preached and taught more, perhaps that would reduce the “need” for many abortions. And if to take it even further, if Christians were more active in preaching the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus, perhaps the world would be a better place while we wait for our redemption.
Thank you Miranda for your last paragraph. Even though abortion is an awful sin, it can be forgiven and God can heal wounded hearts and minds. God’s peace goes beyond our understanding and He loves us with an unending love.
As stated at the end of the podcast, Christians must be willing to take action to help those in need, not just say, “I’ll pray for you.”
While I am glad the subject is being aired, I was very disappointed to hear you say that there is just one text which directly addresses abortion. Not only are there many Scriptures which dictate a biblical worldview concerning abortion, but Exodus 21, which you cite, has nothing to do with abortion. It refers to unintentional damage to a baby in the womb. That would be the opposite of abortion. Abortion is just an updated version of child sacrifice, which we know God hates (Deut. 12:31). The Scriptural fact that He hates bloodshed pertains directly. The list of things God hates (Pro. 6) leaves us in no doubt as to whether “choice” would be acceptable.
The big picture ethical issues resound throughout the Scriptures as God condemns the taking of innocent life. We are actually warned that blood will pursue us unless we hate bloodshed. We are not left in ignorance as to personhood. It is resolved in Luke and in Matthew. We are not left in ignorance as to what our role should be. It should be the defense of the orphan.
To focus on Ex. 21 misses the point. It misses the whole point because it is not describing the climate of today where infants are purposely torn from their mother’s wombs. By saying that this is a complex issue, we lose God’s focus. He is on the side of innocence – always, and against the barbarity which we are discussing.
Clearly life does not begin at breath because “the baby in her womb leapt for joy” (Luke 1:41, 44). The “breath life” philosophy is not sound. You would have to face the unanswerable question, “What was the baby 3 minutes prior to its first breath and why would anyone have the right to kill that baby?”
Abortion is one of the greatest miseries and moral evils ever to be entrenched in our world. There is always a better way. And as Miranda said, there is of course no condemnation for anyone who repents of being involved with abortion.
Thank you for those thoughts Barbara. I know you have done extensive research on this topic! One thought when I read, “life does not begin at breath,” is, would we not say the breath of life is in that child while in the womb, not just when it breathes on its own? God’s breath, His spirit, is in that child (as you shared), and the child “breathes” (receives oxygen) through it’s mother. My children came out into a pool of water and were under water. They obviously didn’t take a breath right away when they came out. They still were “breathing” through the cord under water. (So could we have killed them since they hadn’t breathed on their own through their mouth and with their lungs? I would think NOT!)
Thanks to Jerry and Sean for this very thoughtful and interesting discussion of a very important subject. First, I’d like to mention that there are a number of places above where you need to change what you have written from Ex. 22:22-5 to Ex. 21:22-5 beginning with the little synopsis and also in the section on tagging, etc. In the audio this mistake was also made at the beginning but it becomes obvious it was a misstatement by what follows.
Otherwise, you make many good points. The discussion of Ex. 21:22-25 is very good in that you bring out both the ambiguity of the Heb. text as well as the likely probability of “gives birth prematurely” with “harm” also probably, but not certainly, referring to either the the mother or the prematurely born child. Importantly, you emphasize that even with that understanding as the probability neither of these is a certainty either textually or contextually. I would agree with that overall understanding as well and I think that that is the most intellectually honest position to take. Thus, neither side should use these verses as an attempt to prove their case.
As for Psalm 51, the OT scholar Bruce Waltke was one of the translators of the NIV and one can see his (or his close colleagues) interpretation of the Heb. meaning of the text in the NIV translation:
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.” (Psalm 51:5-6).
Though I am generally a fan of the NIV, it is certainly subject to some translation whoppers at times. As a prime example of that, I think this NIV translation of Psalm 51:5-6 and the understanding it represents is almost certainly not correct (see almost all other translations as well as the New International Commentary on the Old Testament’s translation and explanation which very much disagrees with the NIV translation and understanding here). Here is the commentary’s translation:you
“Behold, in guilt I was born, and in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inmost parts, and in what is secret you make wisdom known to me.” (Psalm 51:5-6)
In short, taken against the background of the entire Psalm, these verses in Psalm 51 simply highlight the comprehensiveness of David’s sin and guilt. I quote the NICOT commentary above:
“Verse 5 of Psalm 51 is perhaps one of the most misinterpreted verses in the Psalter. The psalmist, in the depths of the remorse for the sin committed, declares that guilt and sin were parts of the psalmist’s very conception and birth. Many have understood the words to reflect the concept of “original sin,” a depraved nature that is intrinsic to every human being, passed on to us by the first human pair. A more plausible interpretation, however, is that the psalmist is expressing in these words the all-pervasive quality of the guilt which accompanies the wrong-doing.” p. 456.
At best, then, this section in Psalm 51 is also uncertain as to its exact meaning and certainly should not be used to try to prove one’s case about life in the womb just as with the verses in Ex. 21.
But surely the uncertainty of Ex. 21 and Psalm 51 are not that important to the whole subject. Instead, the whole tenor of scripture from Genesis to Revelation argues for the sanctity of human life as created in God’s image and, therefore, against abortion as represented by many of the verses set forth by others above as well as by Sean and Jerry’s other points which you make, especially, near the end. The greater problem(s) is the practical one(s) of winning acceptance and applying this position in a pluralistic society where so many people and groups disagree on when life begins. This should not however deter Christians in the greater goals of sharing the gospel with the world and living as rightly in love and truth before God as we know how.
Dear Sean, If you wanted to air a discussion on modern abortion, then Exodus 21 (regardless of the translation) should not even have been mentioned. If this verse was so important, then maybe the podcast should be titled, “What should be the jail time for male to male assault where a pregnant women is inadvertently injured, causing a spontaneous miscarriage.”
As a health professional the credibility of this podcast was lost on me early on and I ceased listening. After recent encouragement I labored to the end without aborting again.
Child sacrifice must be rejected in all it’s forms. This should not be a “complex issue” for even a new christian. Ambiguity? I think not. I have a much loved adopted son, now an adult. I regularly pray for his birth mother who rejected the easy way out. When he was young he saw an abortion program on TV and told me, “I’m so glad my mother did not abort me.”
Dr. Luke would turn in his grave if he was listening. He knew that babies ‘quicken’ in the womb. At the sound of Mary’s greeting to Elizabeth, unborn John became very excited (Luke 1:41), and his view of the Messiah did not change until his beheading. Dr. Luke has explained the unborn John’s excitement so well.
PS. As noted by Jerry – Ectopic pregnancies are not viable in the fallopian tube and require urgent medical intervention. This is the same for Spontaneous Abortion, usually called a Miscarriage, and are about 10-20% of all pregnancies.
Thank you, Sean and Jerry, and to all writers of comments,
for your presentation of food for thought. It makes me want to check out the previous podcasts that address the subject of abortion.
The topic also took me down memory lane (a real blast from the past!) to a darkened understanding of 38 or 39 years ago which influenced thousands of us in a group called The Way. I will share very briefly about this, in case it is relevant to folks still under the sway of questionable influences. I am thankful that none of you believe what I was led to believe back then (as a very naïve Christian.)
An editorial article by Victor Paul Wierwille came out in 1980 or 1981 (while I was in Madrid, Spain) which connected the record in Exodus 21: 22-25 to the idea (in Genesis 2:7) of Adam’s first breath and becoming a “living soul.” In a very simplistic way, abortion was overtly justified on this basis. A fetus was regarded as mere “potential life” instead of being a real “person.” [Interestingly, Adam was never a zygote or a developing fetus!]
This old, highly influential article went on to bash Roman Catholics for instigating “unbiblical” anti-abortion movements.
Unknown to many of us at that time, this article coincided with an era of rampant immorality In Way leadership ranks, (in the name of “grace”), causing a wave of “inconvenient” pregnancies. Like many of that Way generation of young adults, I would not question the interpretations of “the man of God of the world” (as we regarded him.) After two decades or so of observing destructive fruit from such twisted dogma, I repented of having gone along with such a pro-abortion travesty. I am thankful that quite a few others have also repented of frivolously endorsing abortions. I pray for those who still need to repent.
I’ll close with a brief quote from Kristen Skedgell on page 183 of Losing the Way:
A few days after I arrive, I realize I am pregnant. I take the test to confirm. How will I make it on my own with two children? I could always have an abortion. Alec need never know. In The Way, the Doctor [referring to Victor Paul Wierwille] of abortions because he said man was not man until he “took his first breath and became a living soul.” Years ago, Years ago, he taught that life was in the blood and life began at impregnation.I don’t know why he changed is mind but his teaching gave me an out. A fetus was not a person, he now taught.
The good news is, Kristen, despite trying circumstances, did not get an abortion.She had her wonderful daughter!
Interestingly, this dichotomy between mere “potential life” and the “living soul” breath life
Correcting a couple of items from my longer statement above. Here is the quote from page 183 of: Losing the Way (without the mistakes) and a brief follow up observation and quote:
A few days after I arrive, I realize I am pregnant. I take the test to confirm. How will I make it on my own with two children? I could always have an abortion. Alec need never know. In The Way, the Doctor [V.P.W.] approved of abortions because he said man was not man until he “took his first breath and became a living soul.” Years ago, he taught that life was in the blood and life began at impregnation. I don’t know why he changed his mind but his teaching gave me an out. A fetus was not a person, he now taught.
What V.P. Wierwille had previously taught (as indicated by Kristen Skedgell in Losing the Way) about life beginning with a zygote (in the PFAL class) is on page 237 of the book: Power for Abundant Living:
The soul life is in the blood and it is passed on when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization.
Once again, my historical observations might provide relevant information in helping any whose background experience involved the confused thinking similar to mine.
I was somewhat confused after listening to the podcast – Does the Bible Support Abortion?
When reading the second sentence: “In this episode Jerry Wierwille will explain the issues with the only biblical text that directly addresses this subject Exodus 21.22-5″ : I was somewhat lost and confused after some 23 minutes with the conclusion – as stated in the comments above Exodus 21. does NOT deal with abortion!
And yes, I listened until the end and yes, I know that Jerry and you do not support abortion, but the presentation was lukewarm, not hot or cold, not convincing….. leaving most listeners lost and confused. Indeed Sean the title is very, very misleading.
To question the fact „Does the bible support abortion“ is quite nauseous. And I certainly do not want to insult or hurt you guys, but the content was very, very weak and after 35 minutes into the podcast (with 17 minutes left), you discussed the main issue ‚the rights, who has the rights“….and although positive…generally the presentation was not convincing.
I have learned so much in reading the comments above, so its good that you guys brought up the issue. It’s very simple: human life is sacred, beginning in the womb and without question the Bible recognises life in the womb and and murder is a repulsive practice.
The testimony of Scripture is clear—life begins at the moment of fertilisation. Whenever the Bible refers to life in the womb, that life is always described as a person—a human being made in the image of God. Therefore, taking that life—someone made in the image of God—is murder – Lets call a spade a spade and not be hot or cold on this issue. Thank you Barbara, Tracy and Ken on the subject on „when life begins“.
As followers of Jesus, if our hearts are not deeply affected over the killing of babies in the womb, then how can we expect those growing up in this lost, confused culture to take our Kingdom message seriously?” And as far as abortion is concerned, our work on this earth is to reach the hearts of those who are tragically anaesthetised to the value of human life.
The love of God is loving the unborn baby. Jesus presented in his first kingdom message‚ you shall not murder…don’t be angry with your brother or call him names, love God and your neighbour and even your enemy who wants to hurt you or destroy you!
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them. (Psalm 139:13–16)
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
Have you guys seen „UNPLANNED“? It is a powerful movie. I saw it in the USA in April 2019. In Germany and many European countries it is not available, due to the powers that be. But it will come. It is the true story of Planned Parenthood clinic director Abby Johnson who, after witnessing an ultrasound-guided abortion, left the industry and became a passionate advocate for life. Perhaps an interview with somebody like Amy Johnson or some other activists in the Pro-Life Movement would help so many listeners of your Podcast and bring clarity. I personally learned so much from Barbara Buzzard writings, who has done so much research, is actively involved in the Pro-Life Movement and has taught and wrote various articles on the issue of abortion.
Being a nurse, we fought for the sick, the mentally handicapped children, the unwanted, the thought of abortion or euthanasia was outlawed.
I, like Ken became involved in The Way Int. in 1977, they did not teach a Biblical pro-life viewpoint with regard to abortion. Life didn’t begin until the fetus took its first breath” best describes the viewpoint they held and taught. That is what I as indoctrinated into believing and we for the most part never questioned the doctrine for many, many years. We were hoodwinked, until hurting people risked their lives and challenged the system. Put their lives on the line for truth! What a disaster that attitude was, which led to the deaths of countless children and destroyed the lives of many in the name of ‚biblical research’, not only in the USA, but Europe also. That is why I am so strong on the subject
According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day. GOD HELP US! It’s insane! It is mass infanticide. It is a rejection of morality as we have known it. It is a renunciation of both Christian and non-Christian virtues. That is what we should be communicating!
Among so-called ‚christians‘ leaders, there seems to be a numbness, a lethargy and refusal to engage in the abortion issue and speak up.
It was 1994, and Nobel Prize winner Mother Teresa was the keynote speaker at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C.. In attendance President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore and their wives, Hillary Clinton and Tipper Gore. And what was Mother Teresa’s central focus? The evil of abortion. She minced no words in her address as the Clintons and Gores sat stone-faced. Talk about a divine setup. This is just part of what she had to say:
“By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. [Abortion is] really a war against the child, and I hate the killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that the mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”
She continued: “Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love one another, but to use violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion.”
Another quote
“Abortion kills twice. It kills the body of the baby and it kills the conscience of the mother. Abortion is profoundly anti-women. Three quarters of its victims are women: Half the babies and all the mothers.”
Now 25 years later, what have we learned!
The following are two quotes from a ‘must read’ book‘
The Unholy Trinity: Blocking the Left’s Assault on Life, Marriage, and Gender by Matt Walsh
“Abortion — a cancer in the bloodstream of American society; a depraved, nefarious, shameful practice; a travesty of historic proportions, and one that should be garnering an enormous amount of your attention and anger.
“Abortion kills more black people than heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents, diabetes, homicide, and respiratory illness — combined.”
In conclusion, silence is not an option. We must speak up. Remaining silent is implied consent. We were meant to be lights of the world, and NOT hide our light under a bushel. No matter how dark it is, our light WILL make a difference,. No matter the confusion of the moment, let’s be brighter stars for Christ.
Please God, give us the strength to protect the unborn child and support pregnant woman who are lost and without hope.
I listened to all the comments at the end of podcast 301 concerning abortion. . What I found lacking was the power of Holy Spirit to convict the world concerning sin. Of course man’s intellectual attempts may count for something.
Did you know that King Baudouin of Belgium threatened to abdicate in 1990, rather than give his royal assent to legalize abortion in Belgium? That’s what I call being a good Christian monarch.
I don’t know where you get your information from but it certainly does not take a mastermind to think that abortion is a person’s right to freedom of Will …simple as that..goodbye..I just read that insulting thing that mother teresa said…and also the NIV ..it basically stinks …
“The ONLY biblical text that directly addresses this subject”? That’s a bold claim. What about Numbers 5?
I agree with Matthew Elton that Numbers 5 also has some interesting information on abortion beliefs during OT times. It is fascinating that with the Exodus 21 v 22 scriptures that there is no further written testimonies within historic findings from that time regarding final priest rulings on various cases, and this could be also said for Numbers 5 beginning with vs 11. Also, as much as the abortion issue is in the forefront of today’s “christian” movement, it certainly wasn’t front and center in Jesus’ teachings. Jesus, being a Jew, must have thought life began at “breath”, as that was the Torah teachings of the time I believe. Conception was not a beginning of life model. Jeremiah 1 v 5 doesn’t really add any clarity to the issue either. Since I believe, Jews thought the child to be a possession of the mother, then perhaps it was given the same status as the beaten but surviving slave?? From what I can find from a site “The Fetus in Jewish Law,” it appears that breath and exiting of the womb is required in order to give the fetus “life” status. It also says that a criminal woman, if she is pregnant, would be executed regardless of her pregnancy up until the point she is in labor, at which time the execution would be halted to allow birth. It is a complicated issue with many facets, and I appreciate Jerry’s attempt to address biblical comments on the subject of abortion as well as Sean’s comments. God bless.
I think your podcast could have done more in helping people to understand the seriousness of abortion. Abortion is dark, it is evil and demonic. “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Eph 5:11)
As Christians, we know that life begins at conception, and not at birth which is the ongoing of human development. At conception everything is biologically in place for a human being – life begins. Abortion therefore is the killing of children.
It seems unfortunate that in your discussion, you were significantly short on scriptural references, and therefore you will find the following of benefit, which are just some of the scriptures which Christians have prayerfully considered as relevant to the pro-life cause.
Gen 1:27; Ex 1:16-22; 4:11; Job 10:11,12; 31:15; Ps 22:9,10; 127:3-5; 139:13-16; Isa 49:15; Jer 1:5; Luke 1:41-44; Gal 1:15
So then, what about someone who has had an abortion and is now feeling the pain of loss and guilt. A person’s greatest need is forgiveness, and Jesus’ sacrifice covers all sin, including abortion – there is hope in Christ if we turn to him.
Interesting thoughts Kim, but I believe that as a Christian we must live with Jesus’ teachings on the topic, not historical Jews. Jesus said not to kill and to love. Abortion goes against both of his commands.
It also seems to me that the Exodus verses are in regards to an accident causing a miscarriage, not an intentional abortion. The Bible does not say, don’t have an abortion, but it does say not to kill and to love, so that covers the issue of abortion better than any of those OT verses that we try to read it into.
There are two topics. The one discussed here, “Does the Bible Support Abortion?” and that should be an easy answer as a Christian. Don’t kill. The second issue is on when life starts, which it seems to be the issue actually discussed.
Well said Miranda! I agree that the discussion was a bit weak in making a firm biblical stand against killing unborn babies.
As Christians we must be looking at the root of the problem, which overall is sex outside of marriage. If that was preached and taught more, perhaps that would reduce the “need” for many abortions. And if to take it even further, if Christians were more active in preaching the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus, perhaps the world would be a better place while we wait for our redemption.
Thank you Miranda for your last paragraph. Even though abortion is an awful sin, it can be forgiven and God can heal wounded hearts and minds. God’s peace goes beyond our understanding and He loves us with an unending love.
As stated at the end of the podcast, Christians must be willing to take action to help those in need, not just say, “I’ll pray for you.”
In Gen 25:22 and Luke 1:41 the “babies” are said to “leap” in the womb, I.e., the unborn babies are alive.
For more see: https://abort73.com/abortion/biblical_teaching/
While I am glad the subject is being aired, I was very disappointed to hear you say that there is just one text which directly addresses abortion. Not only are there many Scriptures which dictate a biblical worldview concerning abortion, but Exodus 21, which you cite, has nothing to do with abortion. It refers to unintentional damage to a baby in the womb. That would be the opposite of abortion. Abortion is just an updated version of child sacrifice, which we know God hates (Deut. 12:31). The Scriptural fact that He hates bloodshed pertains directly. The list of things God hates (Pro. 6) leaves us in no doubt as to whether “choice” would be acceptable.
The big picture ethical issues resound throughout the Scriptures as God condemns the taking of innocent life. We are actually warned that blood will pursue us unless we hate bloodshed. We are not left in ignorance as to personhood. It is resolved in Luke and in Matthew. We are not left in ignorance as to what our role should be. It should be the defense of the orphan.
To focus on Ex. 21 misses the point. It misses the whole point because it is not describing the climate of today where infants are purposely torn from their mother’s wombs. By saying that this is a complex issue, we lose God’s focus. He is on the side of innocence – always, and against the barbarity which we are discussing.
Clearly life does not begin at breath because “the baby in her womb leapt for joy” (Luke 1:41, 44). The “breath life” philosophy is not sound. You would have to face the unanswerable question, “What was the baby 3 minutes prior to its first breath and why would anyone have the right to kill that baby?”
Abortion is one of the greatest miseries and moral evils ever to be entrenched in our world. There is always a better way. And as Miranda said, there is of course no condemnation for anyone who repents of being involved with abortion.
Thank you for those thoughts Barbara. I know you have done extensive research on this topic! One thought when I read, “life does not begin at breath,” is, would we not say the breath of life is in that child while in the womb, not just when it breathes on its own? God’s breath, His spirit, is in that child (as you shared), and the child “breathes” (receives oxygen) through it’s mother. My children came out into a pool of water and were under water. They obviously didn’t take a breath right away when they came out. They still were “breathing” through the cord under water. (So could we have killed them since they hadn’t breathed on their own through their mouth and with their lungs? I would think NOT!)
Thanks to Jerry and Sean for this very thoughtful and interesting discussion of a very important subject. First, I’d like to mention that there are a number of places above where you need to change what you have written from Ex. 22:22-5 to Ex. 21:22-5 beginning with the little synopsis and also in the section on tagging, etc. In the audio this mistake was also made at the beginning but it becomes obvious it was a misstatement by what follows.
Otherwise, you make many good points. The discussion of Ex. 21:22-25 is very good in that you bring out both the ambiguity of the Heb. text as well as the likely probability of “gives birth prematurely” with “harm” also probably, but not certainly, referring to either the the mother or the prematurely born child. Importantly, you emphasize that even with that understanding as the probability neither of these is a certainty either textually or contextually. I would agree with that overall understanding as well and I think that that is the most intellectually honest position to take. Thus, neither side should use these verses as an attempt to prove their case.
As for Psalm 51, the OT scholar Bruce Waltke was one of the translators of the NIV and one can see his (or his close colleagues) interpretation of the Heb. meaning of the text in the NIV translation:
“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.” (Psalm 51:5-6).
Though I am generally a fan of the NIV, it is certainly subject to some translation whoppers at times. As a prime example of that, I think this NIV translation of Psalm 51:5-6 and the understanding it represents is almost certainly not correct (see almost all other translations as well as the New International Commentary on the Old Testament’s translation and explanation which very much disagrees with the NIV translation and understanding here). Here is the commentary’s translation:you
“Behold, in guilt I was born, and in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inmost parts, and in what is secret you make wisdom known to me.” (Psalm 51:5-6)
In short, taken against the background of the entire Psalm, these verses in Psalm 51 simply highlight the comprehensiveness of David’s sin and guilt. I quote the NICOT commentary above:
“Verse 5 of Psalm 51 is perhaps one of the most misinterpreted verses in the Psalter. The psalmist, in the depths of the remorse for the sin committed, declares that guilt and sin were parts of the psalmist’s very conception and birth. Many have understood the words to reflect the concept of “original sin,” a depraved nature that is intrinsic to every human being, passed on to us by the first human pair. A more plausible interpretation, however, is that the psalmist is expressing in these words the all-pervasive quality of the guilt which accompanies the wrong-doing.” p. 456.
At best, then, this section in Psalm 51 is also uncertain as to its exact meaning and certainly should not be used to try to prove one’s case about life in the womb just as with the verses in Ex. 21.
But surely the uncertainty of Ex. 21 and Psalm 51 are not that important to the whole subject. Instead, the whole tenor of scripture from Genesis to Revelation argues for the sanctity of human life as created in God’s image and, therefore, against abortion as represented by many of the verses set forth by others above as well as by Sean and Jerry’s other points which you make, especially, near the end. The greater problem(s) is the practical one(s) of winning acceptance and applying this position in a pluralistic society where so many people and groups disagree on when life begins. This should not however deter Christians in the greater goals of sharing the gospel with the world and living as rightly in love and truth before God as we know how.
Thanks for pointing out the scripture reference error. I’ve corrected them above.
Dear Sean, If you wanted to air a discussion on modern abortion, then Exodus 21 (regardless of the translation) should not even have been mentioned. If this verse was so important, then maybe the podcast should be titled, “What should be the jail time for male to male assault where a pregnant women is inadvertently injured, causing a spontaneous miscarriage.”
As a health professional the credibility of this podcast was lost on me early on and I ceased listening. After recent encouragement I labored to the end without aborting again.
Child sacrifice must be rejected in all it’s forms. This should not be a “complex issue” for even a new christian. Ambiguity? I think not. I have a much loved adopted son, now an adult. I regularly pray for his birth mother who rejected the easy way out. When he was young he saw an abortion program on TV and told me, “I’m so glad my mother did not abort me.”
Dr. Luke would turn in his grave if he was listening. He knew that babies ‘quicken’ in the womb. At the sound of Mary’s greeting to Elizabeth, unborn John became very excited (Luke 1:41), and his view of the Messiah did not change until his beheading. Dr. Luke has explained the unborn John’s excitement so well.
PS. As noted by Jerry – Ectopic pregnancies are not viable in the fallopian tube and require urgent medical intervention. This is the same for Spontaneous Abortion, usually called a Miscarriage, and are about 10-20% of all pregnancies.
Thank you, Sean and Jerry, and to all writers of comments,
for your presentation of food for thought. It makes me want to check out the previous podcasts that address the subject of abortion.
The topic also took me down memory lane (a real blast from the past!) to a darkened understanding of 38 or 39 years ago which influenced thousands of us in a group called The Way. I will share very briefly about this, in case it is relevant to folks still under the sway of questionable influences. I am thankful that none of you believe what I was led to believe back then (as a very naïve Christian.)
An editorial article by Victor Paul Wierwille came out in 1980 or 1981 (while I was in Madrid, Spain) which connected the record in Exodus 21: 22-25 to the idea (in Genesis 2:7) of Adam’s first breath and becoming a “living soul.” In a very simplistic way, abortion was overtly justified on this basis. A fetus was regarded as mere “potential life” instead of being a real “person.” [Interestingly, Adam was never a zygote or a developing fetus!]
This old, highly influential article went on to bash Roman Catholics for instigating “unbiblical” anti-abortion movements.
Unknown to many of us at that time, this article coincided with an era of rampant immorality In Way leadership ranks, (in the name of “grace”), causing a wave of “inconvenient” pregnancies. Like many of that Way generation of young adults, I would not question the interpretations of “the man of God of the world” (as we regarded him.) After two decades or so of observing destructive fruit from such twisted dogma, I repented of having gone along with such a pro-abortion travesty. I am thankful that quite a few others have also repented of frivolously endorsing abortions. I pray for those who still need to repent.
I’ll close with a brief quote from Kristen Skedgell on page 183 of Losing the Way:
A few days after I arrive, I realize I am pregnant. I take the test to confirm. How will I make it on my own with two children? I could always have an abortion. Alec need never know. In The Way, the Doctor [referring to Victor Paul Wierwille] of abortions because he said man was not man until he “took his first breath and became a living soul.” Years ago, Years ago, he taught that life was in the blood and life began at impregnation.I don’t know why he changed is mind but his teaching gave me an out. A fetus was not a person, he now taught.
The good news is, Kristen, despite trying circumstances, did not get an abortion.She had her wonderful daughter!
Interestingly, this dichotomy between mere “potential life” and the “living soul” breath life
Sorry about a few typos.
Correcting a couple of items from my longer statement above. Here is the quote from page 183 of: Losing the Way (without the mistakes) and a brief follow up observation and quote:
A few days after I arrive, I realize I am pregnant. I take the test to confirm. How will I make it on my own with two children? I could always have an abortion. Alec need never know. In The Way, the Doctor [V.P.W.] approved of abortions because he said man was not man until he “took his first breath and became a living soul.” Years ago, he taught that life was in the blood and life began at impregnation. I don’t know why he changed his mind but his teaching gave me an out. A fetus was not a person, he now taught.
What V.P. Wierwille had previously taught (as indicated by Kristen Skedgell in Losing the Way) about life beginning with a zygote (in the PFAL class) is on page 237 of the book: Power for Abundant Living:
The soul life is in the blood and it is passed on when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization.
Once again, my historical observations might provide relevant information in helping any whose background experience involved the confused thinking similar to mine.
Dear Sean & Jerry,
I was somewhat confused after listening to the podcast – Does the Bible Support Abortion?
When reading the second sentence: “In this episode Jerry Wierwille will explain the issues with the only biblical text that directly addresses this subject Exodus 21.22-5″ : I was somewhat lost and confused after some 23 minutes with the conclusion – as stated in the comments above Exodus 21. does NOT deal with abortion!
And yes, I listened until the end and yes, I know that Jerry and you do not support abortion, but the presentation was lukewarm, not hot or cold, not convincing….. leaving most listeners lost and confused. Indeed Sean the title is very, very misleading.
To question the fact „Does the bible support abortion“ is quite nauseous. And I certainly do not want to insult or hurt you guys, but the content was very, very weak and after 35 minutes into the podcast (with 17 minutes left), you discussed the main issue ‚the rights, who has the rights“….and although positive…generally the presentation was not convincing.
I have learned so much in reading the comments above, so its good that you guys brought up the issue. It’s very simple: human life is sacred, beginning in the womb and without question the Bible recognises life in the womb and and murder is a repulsive practice.
The testimony of Scripture is clear—life begins at the moment of fertilisation. Whenever the Bible refers to life in the womb, that life is always described as a person—a human being made in the image of God. Therefore, taking that life—someone made in the image of God—is murder – Lets call a spade a spade and not be hot or cold on this issue. Thank you Barbara, Tracy and Ken on the subject on „when life begins“.
As followers of Jesus, if our hearts are not deeply affected over the killing of babies in the womb, then how can we expect those growing up in this lost, confused culture to take our Kingdom message seriously?” And as far as abortion is concerned, our work on this earth is to reach the hearts of those who are tragically anaesthetised to the value of human life.
The love of God is loving the unborn baby. Jesus presented in his first kingdom message‚ you shall not murder…don’t be angry with your brother or call him names, love God and your neighbour and even your enemy who wants to hurt you or destroy you!
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them. (Psalm 139:13–16)
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
Have you guys seen „UNPLANNED“? It is a powerful movie. I saw it in the USA in April 2019. In Germany and many European countries it is not available, due to the powers that be. But it will come. It is the true story of Planned Parenthood clinic director Abby Johnson who, after witnessing an ultrasound-guided abortion, left the industry and became a passionate advocate for life. Perhaps an interview with somebody like Amy Johnson or some other activists in the Pro-Life Movement would help so many listeners of your Podcast and bring clarity. I personally learned so much from Barbara Buzzard writings, who has done so much research, is actively involved in the Pro-Life Movement and has taught and wrote various articles on the issue of abortion.
Being a nurse, we fought for the sick, the mentally handicapped children, the unwanted, the thought of abortion or euthanasia was outlawed.
I, like Ken became involved in The Way Int. in 1977, they did not teach a Biblical pro-life viewpoint with regard to abortion. Life didn’t begin until the fetus took its first breath” best describes the viewpoint they held and taught. That is what I as indoctrinated into believing and we for the most part never questioned the doctrine for many, many years. We were hoodwinked, until hurting people risked their lives and challenged the system. Put their lives on the line for truth! What a disaster that attitude was, which led to the deaths of countless children and destroyed the lives of many in the name of ‚biblical research’, not only in the USA, but Europe also. That is why I am so strong on the subject
According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day. GOD HELP US! It’s insane! It is mass infanticide. It is a rejection of morality as we have known it. It is a renunciation of both Christian and non-Christian virtues. That is what we should be communicating!
Among so-called ‚christians‘ leaders, there seems to be a numbness, a lethargy and refusal to engage in the abortion issue and speak up.
It was 1994, and Nobel Prize winner Mother Teresa was the keynote speaker at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C.. In attendance President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore and their wives, Hillary Clinton and Tipper Gore. And what was Mother Teresa’s central focus? The evil of abortion. She minced no words in her address as the Clintons and Gores sat stone-faced. Talk about a divine setup. This is just part of what she had to say:
“By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. [Abortion is] really a war against the child, and I hate the killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that the mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”
She continued: “Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love one another, but to use violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion.”
Another quote
“Abortion kills twice. It kills the body of the baby and it kills the conscience of the mother. Abortion is profoundly anti-women. Three quarters of its victims are women: Half the babies and all the mothers.”
Now 25 years later, what have we learned!
The following are two quotes from a ‘must read’ book‘
The Unholy Trinity: Blocking the Left’s Assault on Life, Marriage, and Gender by Matt Walsh
“Abortion — a cancer in the bloodstream of American society; a depraved, nefarious, shameful practice; a travesty of historic proportions, and one that should be garnering an enormous amount of your attention and anger.
“Abortion kills more black people than heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents, diabetes, homicide, and respiratory illness — combined.”
In conclusion, silence is not an option. We must speak up. Remaining silent is implied consent. We were meant to be lights of the world, and NOT hide our light under a bushel. No matter how dark it is, our light WILL make a difference,. No matter the confusion of the moment, let’s be brighter stars for Christ.
Please God, give us the strength to protect the unborn child and support pregnant woman who are lost and without hope.
with love,
Patricia Byrne
Hello all, I responded to these comments at the end of episode 301 The Bible’s View of the Body, starting at about 66 minutes.
I listened to all the comments at the end of podcast 301 concerning abortion. . What I found lacking was the power of Holy Spirit to convict the world concerning sin. Of course man’s intellectual attempts may count for something.
Did you know that King Baudouin of Belgium threatened to abdicate in 1990, rather than give his royal assent to legalize abortion in Belgium? That’s what I call being a good Christian monarch.
I don’t know where you get your information from but it certainly does not take a mastermind to think that abortion is a person’s right to freedom of Will …simple as that..goodbye..I just read that insulting thing that mother teresa said…and also the NIV ..it basically stinks …
Whose freedom of will are you talking about, William ? Before Jeremiah was born, God knew him (Jeremiah 1:5).