We continue our refutation of Michael Brown’s opening statement by addressing some alleged pre-existence texts in John 17.5, John 12.41, Philippians 2.6-11, and Matthew 23.37. (See previous episodes here.) Lastly we spend some considerable time working through Hebrews 1, giving special attention to verses 8 and 10.
To help you follow along, here is the relevant portion of the manuscript Brown used for his opening statement:
There are other texts which explicitly point to the Son’s eternal preexistence. In John 17:5, Jesus prays to the Father, “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” Once again, the text is clear.
John also tells us in chapter 12 that when Isaiah saw the Lord’s glory (meaning, Yahweh in His glory in Isaiah 6), it was the Son of God he saw, the one who suffers and dies in Isaiah 53. Isaiah saw the Son of God, and the Son was called Yahweh.
That’s why Paul tells us explicitly in Philippians 2 that Jesus existed in the form of God yet emptied Himself and became a servant, dying for us. And that’s why Paul uses a text speaking of Yahweh in Isaiah 45:23, where God swears that every knee will bow to Him and every tongue swear to Him and applies the verse to Jesus, saying that every knee will bow to Him and every tongue confess that He is Lord. If the Son is not deity, that’s blasphemous, and it cannot possibly be to the glory of the Father. Just think if the verse were referred to an angel, rather than Yahweh. It’s unimaginable.
Note also that Paul in this passage uses the example of Jesus in Philippians as an example of humility. He didn’t take what rightly belonged to Him – namely, the privileges of deity – but rather emptied Himself on our behalf. He who was eternally God came to earth as a servant to die for us!
That’s why Jesus says that He had often longed to have mercy on Jerusalem, but it was not willing (Matthew 23:37). He was the one wooing His people throughout Old Testament times.
That’s why Hebrews 1:8, quoting from Psalm 45:7, says to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” Yes, the Son is God and has an eternal throne! (The plain sense of the Hebrew and Greek texts is quite clear and the major reason there is any debate in how to translate the words is because of theological objections to the Messiah being God.)
Not only so, but Hebrews continues, quoting from Psalm 102 and applying these words to the Son, “And, ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’” (Heb 1:10-12) The Son is the eternal creator, the one who always was and always will be. That’s what Scripture states!
We don’t need to play games with this text and try to make it say something it is not saying. The text clearly and indisputably speaks of the Lord creating the heavens and the earth, which will ultimately wear out, but He – the eternal Lord – will remain the same. Yet Hebrews applies this to the Son! And Psalm 102 makes frequent reference to Yahweh, yet the psalm is referred to the Son in Hebrews 1. Not only so, but the Greek text speaks of the Lord creating the universe in the beginning (archas). There is no denying the plain truth of these words!
And Hebrews makes the consistent argument that the Son is greater than the angels, yet in first-century Judaism, the very context of these words, there was no one higher than the angels other than God Himself.
—— Links ——
- You can find the other episodes in this series on Refuting Brown’s Opening Statement here
- You can listen to the entire debate on podcast 158 or watch it on YouTube
- Check out post debate interviews with Michael Brown and Dale Tuggy
- Also see, Bill Schlegel’s 4 part series on explanations of misunderstood texts about Jesus
- For a written examination of Hebrews 1.8 and John 20.28 in light of the principle of agency, see my article, “Explanations to Verses Commonly Used to Teach that Jesus Is God”
- Intro music: Jazzy Frenchy by bensound.com. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License.
Thanks for rehearsing all of this! The more we explore these issues the better we can present the truth. I handled the Hebrews 1 Scriptures in my twenty reason why the doctrine of the trinity is wrong. That you have now on Christianmonotheism.com
Great color commentary once again guys.
Just my 2 cents:
1. John 12:41; 17:5: The key common denominator, as yous alluded to, is the “glory” and not the actual person! The theme that runs through the whole “suffering servant” cycle John 12:41 mentions. So a paraphrase would be something like, ‘Isaiah said these things about the glory of Messiah (Isa 4:2; 49:5LXX; 52:13-15LXX; 53:1; 6:3, 10) because he saw Messiah’s future glory.’ As you rightly said, Abraham who “rejoiced to see my day” Jesus says in John 8:56.
Again, nothing to do with a literal, preexistent person; let alone the 2nd member of a 3-in-1 God!
Also of note is the identity of the servant of Yahweh as originally the nation of Israel itself (Isa 41:8; 45:4; 49:3, a preexistent being?!)! And the nation is portrayed as a suffering, human being called “the branch of Yahweh” (4.2); “who fears Yahweh” (11.3); who “grows up like a young plant before Yahweh” (53.2); and ultimately will bear all the sins of all peoples because Yahweh’s will is to “crush” him, i.e., cause him pain/suffering (53.2, 6)! Nonsensical, not to mention blasphemous, to somehow read this figure as Yahweh Himself!
2. Hebrews 1:10 is definitely about the Son and not the Father. As you guys said, it would be foolish to apply the context of the whole chapter as a reference to God, as if we needed to be told that God was greater than the angels, etc.
The writer’s use of the LXX of Ps 102, instead of the Hebrew text, is key because it introduces another figure who is also called “lord.”
(And we know from the textus classicus that the Bible is a story about 2 Lords, Yahweh and adoni, one is God and the other is not God: Psalm 110:1.)
So now the question is which creation is Heb 1:10 a reference to? The writer reinterprets the OT passage of Ps 102, referring to the Genesis creation by Yahweh, to a new, Millennium creation “about His Son,” as yous noted by citing Heb. 2:5. The belief in someone else apart from Yahweh as “creator” (of a new creation) can be found in Isa 51:16 (see NASB not NIV). This verse “makes no sense if it refers to the original [Genesis] creation…In the other instances God acts alone, using no agent. Here the one he has hidden in the shadow of his hand is his agent.” (Word Biblical Commentary)
The last question we need to answer is, how is it that this new-Millennium creation “will perish, grow old and like a garment be rolled up”? Just like the original Genesis creation “perished in the flood” (2Peter 3:5-6), “the present heaven and earth” will perish through fire (2Pet 3.7, 10) and then again the coming new creation (the age to come) will undergo a further change (Rev 20:7-15). And just like Noah and his family stepped out into a “new world,” so will we: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more.” Rev 21:1-2
If it was understood that the Genesis creation perished in the flood, then why did the psalmist, in Psalm 102 of the Hebrew text, refer to God’s original creation perishing in the future? Why didn’t he say that God’s creation, after the flood, was what would perish in the future?
And why did John say, in Revelation 21:1, “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away….”? Is your thought that “first” doesn’t mean literal first in time, but first compared to the new heaven and earth that is unfolding?
In the reading of the Hebrew Masoretic text, Psalm 102 is about YHWH and Genesis creation, I.e., a doxology about God the Father.
The LXX translators and NT writer, hundreds of years later, apply the passage to the Son and “the world to come, of which we are speaking” (Hebrews 2:5).
For more see: https://youtu.be/ZZH-i6R-1vQ
Thanks Sean and Jerry for exposing these really flawed arguments that Trinitarians use to assert that “Jesus is YHWH”. I want to add to the discussion of Isaiah 6/John12. Just reading the text, we can see that the holy Spirit is revealing a much broader scope of “His Glory”, referenced in John12. Isaiah 6:1-3 “In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said,“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.” We clearly see, in verse 3, that “the whole earth is filled” with the glory of God. A summary of what is being said in Isaiah 6: In spite of the unbelief of God’s people, this [Glory filling the earth] will happen in the future, through Messiah. We all know that our Lord Jesus Christ is the “One that He [YHWH] Sent”, and it is through HIM, that the Lord God is being exalted and lifted up by the whole world in the future. It is through our Lord Jesus Christ, who God reveals His Glory, to His people. Ironically, the people that believe in One, Triune God; have to separate Jesus Christ from God, to make their fallacious points. Rather, the holy Spirit, in these texts, is declaring the Unity of God in Christ, we all can SEE the glory of YHWH, in the glorified Son Of God…coming soon to the whole earth….yet future. The Trinitarian pattern of eisegesis is clear: They want to confuse God and Jesus Christ when the holy Spirit is making them distinct, and they want to make them distinct, when the holy Spirit, couldn’t be more clear that “the arm of the Lord” and the Lord God work together as one: ultimately, for the Glory Of the One True God, Himself. As our Lord prays to His God, “the Kingdom and the power and the glory is Yours; forever, Amen.”
Hi Sean and Jerry,
Thank you for doing some follow-up to this debate. I think the doctrine of the Trinity, Oneness or a Pre-existent Christ has really damaged the truth of who God is. A plain reading of the Scriptures has been so distorted by these doctrines being read into the text that these verses need to be explained in detail and in light of the Scriptures as a whole. I appreciate what you and Jerry are trying to do. Maybe everyone else already knew this, but one thing that I’ve recently come to realize after listening to the debate and other Trinitarians explain their beliefs is that many think Yahweh is the name of the Trinity. So, just as they say the Father is God, Jesus is God and the holy spirit is God, they also would say the Father is Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh and the holy spirit is Yahweh. The three are One God named Yahweh. This is how they harmonize the Scriptures that say Yahweh created all things with the ones that say all things were created through Jesus. I’ve even heard some say that no one knows the name of the Father, because they’ve made Yahweh the name of the Triune God. When I realized this I barely had words. It is infuriating and heartbreaking at the same time. I don’t believe most are trying to intentionally deceive others, but this is so wrong. God intentionally told us His Name and that He is One because He wants us to know Him. And to know that He is God alone and He wants us to love Him with everything we are. And Jesus said he made known the Father’s Name! Everything Jesus did was to glorify and honor His Father. We are the Father God’s creation. He loves us so much He gave His son to die for us so that we could be reconciled to Him and be with Him. Yet people have made Him unknown because of their theology. They have changed the meaning of what God has said – God did not really mean He is One, but rather three in one and that one being is one! This is almost unbelievable, but we know there are spiritual powers of darkness at work. I am praying that this stronghold of the lie of the Trinity would be torn down. But I take hope because I know there is a day coming when Yahweh’s Name will be the only One. “ For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Yahweh, As the waters cover the sea!” (Habakkuk 2:14)
Just one more comment. I’ve been thinking about Dr. Brown’s claim that Jesus has to be God because only God is to be worshiped and He won’t share His glory with another. As well as him saying that to worship Jesus in any way other than God is idolatry and that we have 2 Gods. I feel like these conclusions show a lack of consideration of God’s plan and the Scriptures as a whole. Reason and understanding are just gone. We must consider why did God command these things? Why is He the only One we are to worship and give glory to? Because He is the One who created us, He is the giver of life. We were made for Him. He made us for His glory. He loves us and His desire is for us to know Him and love Him in return. He wants all of our heart – everything that we are to be devoted and loyal to Him. When we give our hearts to another, to a false god, to covetousness (which is idolatry) or don’t trust in or have faith in Him, He is upset. He is angry and offended because He is jealous for us. Faith – faithfulness to Him is what pleases Him (Hebrews 11:6). Worshiping Jesus isn’t doing any of these things. Jesus doesn’t take us away from God like idolatry does. Jesus brings us to God. Believing in Jesus shows we have faith in God, the one who sent him. It is through him that we have peace with God and can be born again. God put life in His son. Through Jesus we now live. We can have our hearts sprinkled clean and now worship the Father in spirit and in truth, which is God’s desire. In Christ nothing can separate us from the love of God! In Christ is where the Father wants us to be. Honoring and bowing to Jesus is what the Father wants us to do. God is so please with Jesus that He exalted him to the highest possible place and it is the Father’s will that every knee bow to him. We don’t worship Jesus as God the Father. We worship him to the glory of the Father. We worship Jesus for who he is and what he has accomplished. Our hearts aren’t torn between the two. We don’t see Jesus as a second God. We honor him because he is the son of God who redeemed us with his life and brought us to the Father. Our life is not our own anymore. We were bought with a price. Our life is now in Christ. It is the Father’s will and good pleasure that we honor his son. If we honor Jesus then we are honoring God. It is almost hard to comprehend that someone would call this idolatry. Especially because this is what the Scriptures teach God’s will is. With the Trinity, the whole point of God sending Jesus so that we could have a right relationship with Him (the Father) seems lost. These doctrines have twisted the Scriptures so much and caused so much confusion.
Dr Brown says that the Bible is clear so hasn’t he read 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28?
I love how the CJB expreses this verses since other versions may complicate the wording a little bit.
“then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be done away with will be death, for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.”
1 Corinthians (1 Co) 15:24-28 CJB
https://www.bible.com/1275/1co.15.24-28.cjb
Another one that is very clear of like a chain of command if you will or subordination is 1 Corinthians 11:3
“But I want you to understand that the head of every man is the Messiah, and the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of the Messiah is God.”
1 Corinthians (1 Co) 11:3 CJB
https://www.bible.com/1275/1co.11.3.cjb
Im loving this podcasts, even though I’ve known the truth for 12 years now your podcasts have given me a new perspective on how to explain or to see the Bible in a more contextual way. Thanks a lot. Yah bless
Many trinitarians believe similar to Patrick Navas. They believe Jesus (previously God’s living word) is the agent of creation. Trinitarians see a consistent theme in Genesis 1 (“Then God said…..”), John 1, Hebrews 1, and Colossians 1. All things exist from God, but exist through God’s word. Both are responsible for creation.
Matthew 23:37 is used as a pre-existence text because Jesus refers to OT times when those in Jerusalem stoned/killed God’s messengers; and the thought is that Jesus means he existed (in some form) at that time, and was wanting to gather Jerusalem’s people together. That’s why this passage was thrown in.
Great rebuttal. I don’t think I could think of a single thing to add to your explanations. All I see over and over is that B.U.’s are open and honest about legitimate understandings even if they disagree while Trinitarians rake over the coals anyone who disagree with traditional interpretations.
I’m a #4 interpreter of Hebrews 1:10. I really think after looking it over more and more with the total context of Hebrews chapters 1 and 2 it’s being completely cherry-picked by Trinitarians. They don’t seem to understand the entire point of the first two chapters and the arguments the writer is making… they’re too busy in the thick of the trees rather than seeing the entire forest.