Will Turner grew up in a Presbyterian Church, but when the Jehovah’s Witnesses came calling, he had to admit they made a lot of sese. They got him to question the Trinity and heaven-at-death. He almost joined, but there were a few issues that made him keep his distance. Find out what they were and how encountering Biblical Unitarians online like John Schoenheit and Dustin Smith helped Will tremendously in his journey of faith. Today he’s an avid biblical unitarian apologist defending God’s oneness and engaging in Scriptural conversations with people from different backgrounds.
1 thought on “670. I Almost Became a Jehovah’s Witness… Then I Found Biblical Unitarians (Will Turner)”
Hi Sean. I’ve been listening for about 3 years now and have wanted to comment a number of time’s but never have so today is finally the day!
I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, I have my own long complicated story with that but I’m of course very familiar with that world. I have had a lot of thoughts on your opinions when JW’s and WT come up on your podcast. So this episode was finally my push to comment.
I enjoyed and appreciated Wills sharing his story, but his perspective is going to be a bit limited since he was just studying with them for a bit. A few things were a little off and thought I would mention a couple things that might be worth clarifying.
Like the JW blood issue, the change that Will mentioned that took place in March was not a change allowing for witnesses to accept blood. Actually it just so happens that the March update was just followed by an additional update 2 weeks ago. In March the Governing Body did say witnesses could store their blood for future use. But that was really it, Will thought they were allowed to accept donated blood, that’s not correct. It was notable but really not that helpful, myself and many others would say it was too little too late.
The bigger update now is that they are allowed to accept the 4 main components of blood, which is pretty huge news. Whole blood is still off the table but now of days in much of the world whole blood is not used as often. Expect for certain situations mostly your getting some fraction or another, and most of those fractions were not allowed prior to 2 weeks ago, September 18th actually was the announcement. So it’s good but still bad, because in an emergency situation you may need whole blood and an obedient JW would still refuse this. Which is bizarre that in the Hamburger analogy you could have a bun, a meat patty, lettuce and a condiment, as long as they are all separate it all good, but once you put them together this then is a violation of Gods law, is what it boils down to, pretty illogical but hey take what you can get I suppose!
One thing you said Sean was it sounded like the GB was wanting to admit they were wrong but still maintain control. The correction there for me is they have not admitted to being wrong at all, not even hinted at it, and there has been no acknowledgement of the fact that many people died because of this wrong point of view, or that it as been normal to cheer on your family members and friends for refusing blood and potentially dying because this is a commandment from God. The idea always pushed was if you die for this you’re giving a good witness to everyone and most important being obedient to God commands. I have seen this in my own family a few times in my life and it’s a very disturbing point of view.
Instead of any acknowledgment of this the GB actually used carefully crafted speech to more so make it sound as though they were not wrong at all but that these updates are God now clarifying things in his own time, like this is an example of progressive revelation basically, which is standard for them.
Changes are always given as “new light at the proper time” a reference to Proverbs 4:18 which is arguably an out of context interpretation but this is how they refer to these and any updates/doctrine changes.
According to the WT this new understanding is God revealing new light to them, since they believe themselves to be the exclusive channel in which God provides biblical truth to humanity. Not the more likely reality that things like mounting political pressure throughout the world, lawsuit’s, and a lot of general criticism on this topic which has become more widespread than ever now, is what brought in this change. The March update infact had many people including myself expecting this newest update was going to come about soon and sure enough it did.
Seems like they were doling out the already decided change slowly, assumedly to soften the shock for JWs and make it easier to play on the idea that this is being done in Gods time not theirs.
So yes I’d say it’s a move in the right direction but again too little too late and it’s come with it’s fair share of gas lighting, another usual pattern when they make their changes. And there have been many changes in the last few years, a lot of them being more social allowances, like the lifted ban on beards that was mentioned in the episode, along with other dress code allowances, but there’s been a bunch of things.
Anyway concerning this blood change I said gaslighting because they usually spin things to make it sound like they aren’t really changing anything, or it’s just a little adjustment to what they’ve always said, it’s never an admission that they were going beyond what was written or it was bad interpretation or that they have done anything wrong. And I can give you endless examples of these things. I had a little argument with my mom about the blood update in March actually, she was relaying pretty much verbatim what was said in the update video to me in March, basically that nothing changed with the blood ban. This was how it was communicated to them, so automatically she believes that despite the fact she has a blood denial card as all witnesses do/did in her wallet that actually disproved the claim that nothing changed because on that card it said she does not store her own blood, but the GB are master manipulators and amazingly the misled constituents usually just accept a claim like that without question, even when they have the contradiction right in their wallet.
With all that said in a light critique on some of your defense of the WT/JW’s in the past I’ve heard you make. I know you have had limited experience in their world, but I’ve gotten the impression that you don’t quite see how manipulative they can be and how problematic things really are within the culture. I know you don’t like when people call them a cult, but they are extremely “culty”!
I’ve heard you explain why you don’t think that’s a fair word to use. I think it’s pretty fair, though I think often the people saying it don’t really even understand the cult like aspects that truly exist, and it tends to be more of a name calling thing, because of the controversial biblical understandings. Which I don’t say it because of those things i say it in the true modern sense and idea of how people understand the word “cult” and how cults operate.
The manipulation, the word salads used, the carefully tailored way of saying things, the insider meaning on words, the peer pressure, the shunning, the insane blood policy, the hiding and denying of their embarrassing history and terrible policies, the gaslighting, the idea that they are the only ones who are true Christians and they are the one chosen organization used by God and only they understand the Bible and joining them is the only hope you have. These and many other examples, are all very culty things that permeate through the culture, not to mention they are literally taught to not use critical thinking and that it’s dangerous to do so, which is one of the key reasons all the other things go on with most JW’s happily burying their heads in the sand. It’s very unfortunate and when this is how most of your family is and you’re on the outside it’s very frustrating, sad, and alienating.
It was also mentioned in the episode about the mansion in San Diego that was called Bethsarim, and indeed it was built supposedly for the patriarchs and it actually was deeded to Abraham Isaac and Jacob. “Judge” Joseph Rutherford had it built and did use the house as his winter retreat, during the great depression of all times, this was with donated money while the rank and file were in soup lines. His claim about the return of the patriarchs was stated with his Millions Now Living Will Never Die public talk and campaign. But it had nothing to do with the 1914 doctrine was said in the episode, it happened quite a while after 1914.
Which on that note, I have wondered if you are aware of the 1914 and 1919 doctrines Sean? It is those teachings along with the Millions Now Living campaigns, along with 1975 and many other failed predictions that I believe hands down the WT is 100% a false prophet and I believe they are a deeply corrupt organization and for these and tons of more reasons I can only conclude it is a demonically highjacked mess that I pray for the well intentioned good hearted people with in to figure it out. I truly mean that. Also do you know much of the child abuse scandals and cover ups?
So it’s been a little tough for me sometimes, I feel like you give them too much benefit of the doubt. I do remember the episode from several years ago you did with the lady who left the WT but even her story it was very interesting and of course valid, if I remember right she wasn’t raised in it and her family was not in it.
I hope you can understand a bit better from some of us why WT is worse than you may realize.
Anyway I can go on about this topic for hours and days and I’m sure this has gotten too long already, so I apologize if it has!
I really do like your podcast, I have loved a bunch of the series you’ve done and this recent theme with peoples life stories have been very interesting. I always like your delivery, I like your subtle humor and you really seem like a genuine good man and I appreciate your work and I’m sure your church is very blessed to have you. Actually I have been reading Kingdom Journey and I’m about 2/3 through and I have really liked all your stories in that. I know you have some newer books but unfortunately I don’t have as much time to read these days as I wish I did, I’ve been reading KJ about 10 minutes a day (most days) so it’s taking a while but I’m really liking it!
I will say there are a bunch of things I have heard you say that I’d challenge you on and think you’re missing the boat on some important topics. I’d say I think we have a big difference in some world view topics, but I do greatly appreciate your research and insights in biblical topics and all your deep dive presentations.
Last I’ll say I’ve been interested in this event in Tempe. I too am from NY but I have been living in AZ for 20 years now, and hearing of this event I’ve been curious about checking it out. In fact coincidentally I tried to find out information on it this morning but didn’t really feel I found much. I know where it is and I see the dates which I believe were Thursday Friday and Saturday, 22-24th (sort of tough days in my schedule but all days seem to be if I’m being honest) but I don’t know what the times are, I don’t know if I need to sign up or need a ticket. I was wondering what day you’d be speaking? Maybe this is not the right place to direct these questions, but I hope you don’t mind and any direction would be nice.
Thanks Sean, again I apologize if this got too long.
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Hi Sean. I’ve been listening for about 3 years now and have wanted to comment a number of time’s but never have so today is finally the day!
I was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, I have my own long complicated story with that but I’m of course very familiar with that world. I have had a lot of thoughts on your opinions when JW’s and WT come up on your podcast. So this episode was finally my push to comment.
I enjoyed and appreciated Wills sharing his story, but his perspective is going to be a bit limited since he was just studying with them for a bit. A few things were a little off and thought I would mention a couple things that might be worth clarifying.
Like the JW blood issue, the change that Will mentioned that took place in March was not a change allowing for witnesses to accept blood. Actually it just so happens that the March update was just followed by an additional update 2 weeks ago. In March the Governing Body did say witnesses could store their blood for future use. But that was really it, Will thought they were allowed to accept donated blood, that’s not correct. It was notable but really not that helpful, myself and many others would say it was too little too late.
The bigger update now is that they are allowed to accept the 4 main components of blood, which is pretty huge news. Whole blood is still off the table but now of days in much of the world whole blood is not used as often. Expect for certain situations mostly your getting some fraction or another, and most of those fractions were not allowed prior to 2 weeks ago, September 18th actually was the announcement. So it’s good but still bad, because in an emergency situation you may need whole blood and an obedient JW would still refuse this. Which is bizarre that in the Hamburger analogy you could have a bun, a meat patty, lettuce and a condiment, as long as they are all separate it all good, but once you put them together this then is a violation of Gods law, is what it boils down to, pretty illogical but hey take what you can get I suppose!
One thing you said Sean was it sounded like the GB was wanting to admit they were wrong but still maintain control. The correction there for me is they have not admitted to being wrong at all, not even hinted at it, and there has been no acknowledgement of the fact that many people died because of this wrong point of view, or that it as been normal to cheer on your family members and friends for refusing blood and potentially dying because this is a commandment from God. The idea always pushed was if you die for this you’re giving a good witness to everyone and most important being obedient to God commands. I have seen this in my own family a few times in my life and it’s a very disturbing point of view.
Instead of any acknowledgment of this the GB actually used carefully crafted speech to more so make it sound as though they were not wrong at all but that these updates are God now clarifying things in his own time, like this is an example of progressive revelation basically, which is standard for them.
Changes are always given as “new light at the proper time” a reference to Proverbs 4:18 which is arguably an out of context interpretation but this is how they refer to these and any updates/doctrine changes.
According to the WT this new understanding is God revealing new light to them, since they believe themselves to be the exclusive channel in which God provides biblical truth to humanity. Not the more likely reality that things like mounting political pressure throughout the world, lawsuit’s, and a lot of general criticism on this topic which has become more widespread than ever now, is what brought in this change. The March update infact had many people including myself expecting this newest update was going to come about soon and sure enough it did.
Seems like they were doling out the already decided change slowly, assumedly to soften the shock for JWs and make it easier to play on the idea that this is being done in Gods time not theirs.
So yes I’d say it’s a move in the right direction but again too little too late and it’s come with it’s fair share of gas lighting, another usual pattern when they make their changes. And there have been many changes in the last few years, a lot of them being more social allowances, like the lifted ban on beards that was mentioned in the episode, along with other dress code allowances, but there’s been a bunch of things.
Anyway concerning this blood change I said gaslighting because they usually spin things to make it sound like they aren’t really changing anything, or it’s just a little adjustment to what they’ve always said, it’s never an admission that they were going beyond what was written or it was bad interpretation or that they have done anything wrong. And I can give you endless examples of these things. I had a little argument with my mom about the blood update in March actually, she was relaying pretty much verbatim what was said in the update video to me in March, basically that nothing changed with the blood ban. This was how it was communicated to them, so automatically she believes that despite the fact she has a blood denial card as all witnesses do/did in her wallet that actually disproved the claim that nothing changed because on that card it said she does not store her own blood, but the GB are master manipulators and amazingly the misled constituents usually just accept a claim like that without question, even when they have the contradiction right in their wallet.
With all that said in a light critique on some of your defense of the WT/JW’s in the past I’ve heard you make. I know you have had limited experience in their world, but I’ve gotten the impression that you don’t quite see how manipulative they can be and how problematic things really are within the culture. I know you don’t like when people call them a cult, but they are extremely “culty”!
I’ve heard you explain why you don’t think that’s a fair word to use. I think it’s pretty fair, though I think often the people saying it don’t really even understand the cult like aspects that truly exist, and it tends to be more of a name calling thing, because of the controversial biblical understandings. Which I don’t say it because of those things i say it in the true modern sense and idea of how people understand the word “cult” and how cults operate.
The manipulation, the word salads used, the carefully tailored way of saying things, the insider meaning on words, the peer pressure, the shunning, the insane blood policy, the hiding and denying of their embarrassing history and terrible policies, the gaslighting, the idea that they are the only ones who are true Christians and they are the one chosen organization used by God and only they understand the Bible and joining them is the only hope you have. These and many other examples, are all very culty things that permeate through the culture, not to mention they are literally taught to not use critical thinking and that it’s dangerous to do so, which is one of the key reasons all the other things go on with most JW’s happily burying their heads in the sand. It’s very unfortunate and when this is how most of your family is and you’re on the outside it’s very frustrating, sad, and alienating.
It was also mentioned in the episode about the mansion in San Diego that was called Bethsarim, and indeed it was built supposedly for the patriarchs and it actually was deeded to Abraham Isaac and Jacob. “Judge” Joseph Rutherford had it built and did use the house as his winter retreat, during the great depression of all times, this was with donated money while the rank and file were in soup lines. His claim about the return of the patriarchs was stated with his Millions Now Living Will Never Die public talk and campaign. But it had nothing to do with the 1914 doctrine was said in the episode, it happened quite a while after 1914.
Which on that note, I have wondered if you are aware of the 1914 and 1919 doctrines Sean? It is those teachings along with the Millions Now Living campaigns, along with 1975 and many other failed predictions that I believe hands down the WT is 100% a false prophet and I believe they are a deeply corrupt organization and for these and tons of more reasons I can only conclude it is a demonically highjacked mess that I pray for the well intentioned good hearted people with in to figure it out. I truly mean that. Also do you know much of the child abuse scandals and cover ups?
So it’s been a little tough for me sometimes, I feel like you give them too much benefit of the doubt. I do remember the episode from several years ago you did with the lady who left the WT but even her story it was very interesting and of course valid, if I remember right she wasn’t raised in it and her family was not in it.
I hope you can understand a bit better from some of us why WT is worse than you may realize.
Anyway I can go on about this topic for hours and days and I’m sure this has gotten too long already, so I apologize if it has!
I really do like your podcast, I have loved a bunch of the series you’ve done and this recent theme with peoples life stories have been very interesting. I always like your delivery, I like your subtle humor and you really seem like a genuine good man and I appreciate your work and I’m sure your church is very blessed to have you. Actually I have been reading Kingdom Journey and I’m about 2/3 through and I have really liked all your stories in that. I know you have some newer books but unfortunately I don’t have as much time to read these days as I wish I did, I’ve been reading KJ about 10 minutes a day (most days) so it’s taking a while but I’m really liking it!
I will say there are a bunch of things I have heard you say that I’d challenge you on and think you’re missing the boat on some important topics. I’d say I think we have a big difference in some world view topics, but I do greatly appreciate your research and insights in biblical topics and all your deep dive presentations.
Last I’ll say I’ve been interested in this event in Tempe. I too am from NY but I have been living in AZ for 20 years now, and hearing of this event I’ve been curious about checking it out. In fact coincidentally I tried to find out information on it this morning but didn’t really feel I found much. I know where it is and I see the dates which I believe were Thursday Friday and Saturday, 22-24th (sort of tough days in my schedule but all days seem to be if I’m being honest) but I don’t know what the times are, I don’t know if I need to sign up or need a ticket. I was wondering what day you’d be speaking? Maybe this is not the right place to direct these questions, but I hope you don’t mind and any direction would be nice.
Thanks Sean, again I apologize if this got too long.
Thanks again for your time!