This is part 7 and the final episode in our holy spirit series.
Are you on a journey with God or have you arrived? Are you still willing to learn and grow and try new things or have you erected boundaries around your current understanding and practice? Today my guest is Kevin Guigou, a full-time minister at Christian Family Fellowship in Tipp City, Ohio. Although he came from a background that stressed rigidity when manifesting the holy spirit, he’s come to enjoy a greater freedom as he has continued to grow and learnx. Not only does Guigou encourage us to remain open to God’s leading, but he also shares how we shouldn’t let fear of doing something wrong stop us from stepping out in faith.
—— Links ——
- Find out more about Kevin Guigou at Christian Family Fellowship’s website and YouTube channel
- Check out a few of Guigou’s audio teachings here
- See the previous podcasts in this series on the holy spirit
- If you’d like to support Restitutio, you can donate here.
- Leave a voice message via SpeakPipe with questions or comments
- Intro music: Good Vibes by MBB Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Free Download / Stream: Music promoted by Audio Library
Kevin,
Around the 30 min. mark you mentioned how in some charismatic churches people fall on the floor, laugh, jump up and down, etc.
You also cited 2Chron 5.14 as proof for some of these manifestations.
It sounds like you’re describing what some call “slain in the spirit” and “laughing in the spirit.”
Are you saying this is a good Christian belief/practice?
Thanks,
carlos@thehumanjesus.org
Hi Carlos,
I believe that “good Christian belief/practice” (your phrase) is anything genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, not merely a checklist of allowable “how to’s” in scripture. Some scripture is PREscriptive of what we should do and how we should do it; on the other hand, some scripture is only DEscriptive of merely what others in another time were guided to do and how they did it.
Experiences that you refer to (also hand raising, etc) may be: 1) godly, 2) ungodly, or 3) an expression of someone’s worshipful submission to God from someone’s tradition. I believe that the Holy Spirit may inspire anything God wishes, even when it’s unfamiliar or uncomfortable. The Bible is full of places “being shaken where they were assembled.” We quench fiery darts, but we don’t quench the Spirit.
We should be very careful in PREdetermining a long list of experiences that we’d consider counterfeits. We may not be comfortable with God inspiring a talking donkey, the marrying of a harlot, or allowing Naaman to bow down in the pagan house of Rimmon.
Our community doesn’t use the pejorative term, “slain in the spirit,” but I believe that at times God’s people may feel brought to the floor “under the weightiness of His presence” (besides 2 Chronicles 5:14, see also John 18:3-6 including Craig Keener’s notes in The IVP Bible Background Commentary, 2014; and Dan. 10:8-9 in context). But these miraculous possibilities aren’t what I might call “the tenth manifestation of Holy Spirit.”
In some ways, a “falling” encounter blends with the broad fundamental idea of OT/NT “worship” being the bowing down or falling down in submission to God’s majesty across the Bible. Various forms of prostration are often the body language of worship. Today, seculars may even say, “I worship the ground he walks on.”
I believe that ‘pneumatikos’ may be best reflected in: 1) spiritual gifts (“matters;” assigned long suits; special abilities), 2) manifestations of the spirit (evidences or overflow of being filled with the spirit, as commonly mentioned by Paul), and/or 3) unique phenomenon that aren’t promised or even mentioned in Scripture (e.g., shadow of Peter, work clothes of Paul, hem of garment, walking on water, mud in eyes); although some people might include this latter category to be within Paul’s manifestation of workings of miracles.
No spiritual experience in these areas makes anyone more holy or righteous than another believer. And Christ’s gracious salvation surely doesn’t rest on our practices and expressions.
In any case, it’s important to distinguish between what is: 1) doctrine (true teaching), 2) tradition, or 3) expression. Some believers confuse the practices of their faith TRADITIONS to be, in fact, Christian DOCTRINE. Let’s not “create God in our own image.” In the same way, a believer’s preferred EXPRESSIONS (of loud or soft praise, submission, etc.) may also be imagined to be DOCTRINE for everyone. I believe that God allows a broad range of faith traditions and preferred expressions within the Christian experience across times and cultures. There are many streams and creeks in River Jesus. ~KPG
KPG,
Thank you for taking the time to answer.
So then, what exactly is THE criteria for testing what is “genuinely inspired by the Holy Spirit”?
I greatly enjoyed this discussion, Sean and Kevin, as I’m sure many others did as well. Thanks for making this available and for sharing so freely throughout. Kevin, it was good to hear your voice again and I was glad to see that despite now living in the North you haven’t lost all of your NC Southern accent in the intervening years since I’ve last seen you! Your mention of reading the Good News for Modern Man, the Presbyterian church, the early days in the Way in the Valdese/Morganton area, and, most especially, speaking in tongues for the first time at the age of 15 brought back a lot of very good memories for me since I was having similar in my slightly older teenage years at the same time in other parts of NC. Without a doubt there was a very real movement of God at that time among many, many young people throughout the USA who were truly searching for spiritual meaning and who found it, if not perfectly at least vital parts of it, at that time. Your phrase “Bible fed, spirit led” captures what began for many of us at that time and has continued – through different paths, groups, journeys, etc. – until today. I certainly agree with the most of what you expressed in both the audio discussion and what you have so eloquently and precisely written above. Sean, thanks for this very informative Series, and Kevin all the best to you, Sarah, and Christian Family Fellowship. II Cor. 3:4-6!
Richie!
Thanks so much for those rich & gracious observations and memories. Yes, my brother, I remember meeting you for the first time at a weekend camp style event we had in NC. The earth had just cooled, and King James I was keynote speaker.
So thankful for those days in our past that you mentioned. If the Lord was involved in any chapter, we dare not write it off. Every chapter of life is deeply flawed because our Adamness is also present. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. We should never hold onto shame over any stretch of our journey that was dedicated to his glory. Something about babies and bath waters.
Your reputation of faithfulness and kindness hasn’t wavered since those early days, but has only grown as you’ve touched so many lives home and abroad.
Our greatest days are ahead of us and I hear a trumpet in the distance.
Love to you and yours. Loved checking those scriptures that you mentioned. Life theme for me for the last decade or so has been 1Peter 2:25. We have returned.
Sean,
Thanks once again for inviting me to talk to your audience.
RE: your commentary at the end of this podcast, you said it’s a valid point to “test the spirits.”
So what is THE criteria for testing the spirits?
carlos@thehumanjesus.org
This whole conversation fascinates me… I very much relate to that fear of being wrong… some of us are GOING to be wrong, and some correct. We all come from such different perspectives and backgrounds and experiences.
With the Spirit, we as humans don’t like not being in total control. It’s understandable to an extent, but we also most likely miss out by hiding behind fear and control. Is God held back and not able to do as much as He would because of this?? I wonder…
Thank you so much for exploring these issues. We are all in search of authentic Christianity. I have multiple stories from the past 50 years of people who, having been fully instructed in tongues speaking, and having taught their children to speak in tongues, eventually abandoned the whole exercise, believing it to be a clever form of self-deception. I do have one major question: Why would God grant the gifts, which are accrediting signs of the Gospel (Heb. 2:3-4), when some claimants to the gifts have not even understood the non-negotiability of water baptism? “God gives the spirit to those who obey him” (Acts 5:32). But we are aware of some claimants to the gifts who refuse water baptism. What do you make of this?
Mr. Buzzard, have you considered the possibility that you are mistaken in your claim of “the non-negotiability of water baptism”? It is by one spirit that we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). Eph 4:5 says there is “one” baptism. I submit the one baptism that matters is baptism in holy spirit, not water. People who have been baptized in holy spirit are Christian. People who have been baptized in water might, or might not be.
Mr. Woods, Acts 2:38 is quite clear. Upon hearing and believing, the people asked, what shall we do? Peter’s response was, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of holy spirit.” It appears that both are necessary; and receiving holy spirit is a result of obedience of baptism. It is a promise, a gift, if you do the first part. And if one claims to follow Christ, be a Christian, he should follow Christ’s example. In addition, nowhere in the Bible is there evidence that having the gift of holy spirit means or is equivalent to, speaking in languages/”tongues,” like many insinuate.
If to listen to this “Holy Spirit Series,” about 90% or more of it was focused on languages/tongues. Many people have received holy spirit and are filled with God’s spirit, and don’t speak in “tongues.” I feel it is quite demeaning to say one is not experiencing a spirit-filled life or ministry if they don’t manifest the spirit by speaking various languages/”tongues.”
Hello Tracy,
Thanks for your response. To be clear, I did not say, nor do I believe that “having the gift of holy spirit means or is equivalent to speaking in languages/tongues.” Nor did I say that “one is not experiencing a spirit-filled life or ministry if they don’t manifest the spirit by speaking various languages/tongues.” As you stated, there are many Christians who have a wonderful relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ who have never spoken in tongues. But I do believe Paul when he wrote by revelation that he wants all Christians to speak in tongues and prophesy. I also believe that every Christian has the ability to do both, whether they know it or not.
Concerning water baptism, Cornelius and his household received holy spirit and spoke in tongues before they were water baptized. When the Philippian jailer asked Paul what he needed to do to be saved, Paul said to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:30-31). Romans 10:9-10 says that is a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they shall be saved. Paul wrote in Ephesians that when they heard the gospel and believed it, they were sealed with the holy spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14). It is true that in Acts 2:38 Peter told the crowd to “repent and be baptized”. Further revelation came later.
We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
Mr. Woods, thank you for your reply. I agree, there have been exceptions to the “rule” and I believe it was for a special purpose. Also, I would agree that God has and can give His spirit to people when He wants to. My point was, in the Acts 2.38 verse, it was a promise, something you can count on.
As we see in Corinthians not all are given every gift and certainly not tongues, the least of the gifts.
I would disagree that there was “further revelation” in this regards and water baptism was never nullified.
Yes, I agree, we must confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts in order to be saved. I would totally agree. I also agree that baptism in and of itself saves us. It does not. Because we have believed in our hearts we humble ourselves and obey to be baptized, like Naman did to be healed in thee OT.
Yes we are saved by faith in Jesus, but that too is an action. God offers salvation and we must accept it.
sorry for not being clear with this paragraph. I fixed it.
Yes, I agree, we must confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts in order to be saved. I would totally agree. I also agree that baptism in and of itself DOES NOT saves us. Yes, we are saved because we have believed in our hearts we humble ourselves and obey to be baptized, like Naman did to be healed in thee OT.
Tracy,
I hope this response appears in the correct order. It looks like these comments only nest so deep…
I do not believe that a person must be water baptized before receiving holy spirit is a “rule”. God’s promise is that people who believe the gospel are sealed with the gift of holy spirit.
The overall context of 1 Cor 12-14 is in meetings, and in meetings not everyone does everything. If Paul believed that “certainly not all are given tongues” (paraphrased), then why did he say “I want all of you to speak in tongues”? (1 Cor 14:5) And where do you get the idea that tongues is “the least of the gifts”?
Also, Paul directly contrasts faith and works in Eph 2:8-9.
If people want to get water baptized, great! If they don’t, great! The important baptism is baptism in holy spirit. That’s what makes a person a Christian.
This will be my last post here. People generally do not change their beliefs on a comment board, and the back and forth responses can go on forever.. 😉 For the record, of the seven episodes in this series on holy spirit, I most closely align with John Truitt’s and Kevin Guigou’s positions.
Tracy Z. I don’t believe I have seen or heard anyone say that “one is not experiencing a spirit-filled life or ministry if they don’t manifest the spirit by speaking various languages/”tongues.”
On the other hand I have said that everyone who is born again has the ability to speak in tongues. I stand firmly on this belief and if simply stating that offends you then with all due respect I think that is a you issue and not a me issue. I personally do not view anyone who hasn’t spoke in tongues any different than any other believer. I am saddened though when a believer denies the ability and therefore isn’t even open to learning and trying.
I do find it interesting that despite Paul saying I would you all spoke in tongues and I speak in tongues more than ye all- you are willing to lax “non-negotiabilty” but at the same time despite scriptures that clearly question the necessity for H2O baptism you strictly maintain “non-negotiabilty” I ABSOLUTELY know spirit filled Christians that have NEVER been water baptized and who have expressed no interest in ever partaking in that rite.
Do you not recognize the biased subjective judgements you are making here with these 2 subjects?
Thank you for replying to my comment Mr. Trivo. I have heard that comment directly and indirectly.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that everyone will or everyone will have the ability to speak in tongues/different language. In fact Paul states not everyone has every gift. If you claim everyone has the ability to speak in tongues then everyone should have the ability to heal people and do miracles. And if that is the case, why is the church so sick then? We should be praying for that gift and seek it more than tongues. It would have more benefit to the brethren today. But what are we told to pursue most? Prophecy and teaching.
You stated, “I am saddened though when a believer denies the ability and therefore isn’t even open to learning and trying.” I have a few thoughts to this comment.
If God GIVES you a gift, the ability to manifest any one of the gifts, you do not need to learn or try to do the gift. There is no evidence of Spiritual Gift Class.
Allan – what have you got against water baptism and the vitally important symbolism associated with it, in Romans chapter six ?
Dear Allan – When did you personally become totally and infallibly free from “biased, subjective theological judgements ” ? God bless you, sir.
I thought it was rather sad, Rob, to see that you so soon ‘bailed out’ from your conversation with Tracy – and from having your views fully biblically analysed. God bless you, though, wherever you are.
Don’t be sad, John. The internet is full of never ending discussions on this topic. Keeping this one going is pointless. My views have been “fully biblically analyzed” by people who support the “the non-negotiability of water baptism” position many times over. I have stated my position and provided scriptural support. I understand that Mr. Buzzard, Carlos, Tracy, and you do not agree. That’s fine. Everyone must be fully persuaded in their own mind. God bless.
Why would. You split the witness on earth?1 John 5:7.And why would you turn the great commission into the great omission.? Br. Kent
Christian love is not impatient, Rob. (cf. 1 Cor. 13:4).How did you start ‘speaking in languages’, and was your initial verbal glossolalia accompanied by any supernaturally profound spiritual experience ?
God bless you, Rob.
My answer to your last question, Anthony, is :
” There is, in my opinion, something importantly amiss in their theology “.
Good program.
The balance I was looking for.
Thanks Kent
Mr Buzzard I believe that whenever an individual assigns the term “non-negotiability” in reference to God Almighty they are already in hot water and have strayed from the truth.
If there is only one thing that I can absolutely claim to know about God is that He will do anything in His power to work with any pure and honest repentant heart. (Manasseh)
If God gives the spirit ONLY to those who obey Him and if disobedience is sin then we are all guilty and undeserving of anything from God.
I believe you have erroneously equated H2O baptism with salvation and the granting of the gift of pneuma hagion
I suppose we could argue this point to ad nauseam
It saddens me to think that you would deny yourself of this blessing based on H2O and on your experiences over the last 50 years.
As to those “claimants” that you refer to – do you think that God would disallow us from perceiving the genuineness of His presence working in our lives?
allan you are right
Would you be, by any chance, from the ‘Way International’ denomination (or from one of its splinter groups), Allan ? God bless you.
Thanks Sean and Kevin and, indeed, all contributors to this really enlightening and challenging 7 part series.
While Kevin’s experiences are not my own, I found what he said, and him personally, to give out “a ring of truth”.
I especially found his thoughts which I summarise as: “beware of putting God and His Holy Spirit in our own respective thought and life experience boxes”, a salutary warning and reminder that the Evil One so often uses to ensnare us in our own subtle and often hidden, intellectual pride!
So many debilitating Christian doctrines and schisms among us as “Christians” seem to have come into being since our Lord’s death and resurrection, and seem have been perpetuated – (like the doctrine of the Trinity) – because we, as fallible human beings, all too often permit the Evil One to manipulate our thoughts so that we actually place ourselves in the centre of our ‘logic’, and thereby limit our understanding of our Creator God, by imposing our own logic and emotional limitations on Him, rather than staying open and excited to His infinite possibilities of thought and action in His world, and so remain open to discern and experience afresh each day, such new revelations as He may want to give each of us, if only we would remain open and receptive to Him – through His Holy Spirit with the innocence of a child – yet discernment of a fox!
Thank you so much for this wonderful series – it has opened my mind and thinking on this topic.
Best wishes,
Darcey
Appreciated your summary thoughts and perspective!
Thanks so much for this series, Sean, really enjoyed it and it gave me much food for thought.
Me too, Fiona. God bless you.
I have spoken with Mr. Buzzard before at great length. All he wants to discuss is water baptism. We spoke of nothing else. I went to a church where they told a neck breather he would not be saved unless he was baptized in water. Took special medical equipment, 7 or 8 medical people and a special medical bed to lower him in the water. Great caution had to be taken so he would not drown. Allan is right. Just because the message of these fake manifestations is watered down and polite doesn’t mean the message is not off. This person talks as if the spirit is something we control. The breathe of God is serious. These manifestations are fleshly and empty. ajc
ajc,
Could you point to a verse or passage where water baptism is phased out, I.e., made obsolete?
As you may know there’s no such thing as “baptism with the Holy Spirit” in the NT.
And “baptized in Holy Spirit” only has God and/or Jesus as the subject.
Furthermore, apart from Acts there are references to water baptism throughout Paul’s letters (Ephesians 4:5; 5:26; Titus 3:5; Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; cp. Hebrews 10:22).
Thanks,
carlos@thehumanjesus.org
One of the best booklets I have read on the spirit is BIBLICAL FACTS ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE TRUE HOLY TRINITY by Robert L. Whitelaw. I ordered it from Hess Publications. The holy spirit in English bibles can be substituted by power of God:, the witness of God” or the breath of God. I am quoting Mr. Whitelaw. Introduction from this booklet is even good. (What a sorry record of emotional excess, perversion, imposture. and gross superstition, both before and after the Reformation, has been complied by many claiming the power of guidance of the “The Holy Spirit”. What glittering temples of darkness, whether Papal, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant of other names, have been sanctified with the title “Holy trinity this or that”; what pompous and turgid Creeds and prayer-books have paid lip service to ancient trinitarian formulations, while those who claim to worship God thereby remain, for the most part, in heathen darkness. That is part of his introduction. And of course there is the 500 year history of christianity that I think Sean wrote. It is a hard, eye opening read. And I have a book on church doctrines and creeds. Difficult to read but also an eye opener. ajc
God bless you, ajc.
John Thank you for being kind. I do not communicate well. When I wrote of the man that was told he would not be saved unless he went thru the ordeal of being baptized in water even tho he was a neck breather, I wasn’t saying how important water baptism was, I was saying how ignorant the pastor and his assistants were to put this man and his family thru this. What kind of God were they promoting. I went to this church because I was really trying to find a church and true christian fellowship. The pastor came to me one day and told me in a very not nice way that I wasn’t welcome to fellowship there because of my view on baptism. It must have been eating at him for some time as he was very hateful. I no longer go to church and hate that I wasted so much time being around these people. What a waste of a sunday afternoon . And I have to say that I have NEVER seen any tongues that were not gibberish and of the flesh. Never. When they say we are to test the spirit, I can’t understand how anyone who has had God’s spirit come to them, could not see how false this tongues thing is. And some of the other manifestations. I realize that some of the people who get involved in this stuff are actually looking for something and I feel for them. I do not think much of the old way was left after 70 AD. The temple and all of the old ways of everything was destroyed. We were given something new. The tongues and other stuff spoken of, lead us away from God. It is parlor games. I don’t mean that in a mean way but the damage and hurt it has done. Confusion. ajc My heart is broken because of all the time I spent at these places called church and all the money I gave them that my dear family could have used. That is something to repent of.
God bless you, ajc.
I understand the kind of thing you’re talking about, but we have to forgive them (cf. Romans 12:17-21). Keep strong, ajc. God loves you.
Great question he asks: How would you act if you weren’t afraid? We need to allow the spirit to invade and take over. I see it all the time in the black churches I attend. Services allow the spirit to interrupt, redirect, move people to prophesy, move the pastor to stop his planned sermon and speak on what the spirit is directing. It’s very spontaneous but calm and respectful. My husband at one point in his life was drowning in fear and pain over his life falling apart. A woman in the church who was a prophetess just went up to the podium as the pastor or ministry leader (I can’t remember) stopped and backed away from the mic. She looked at my husband and addressed him by name, unaware of anything he was going through, and said she was shown a tangled ball of yarn in her head and given words to tell him–that he needs to stop worrying. God knows how to untangle the mess. He’s got this. My husband broke down and wept. The whole congregation, from my impression, felt that word and presence of the spirit.
Recently we had a baby blessing in our small church, and the pastor got really heavy into praying for the young father and told us all we need to pray and wrap our arms around him. The whole congregation, men and women, old and young, began weeping, so moved in emotion, necessity, love, concern. It was so unexpected and unusual but absolutely needed. A well of healing (emotional) poured through all and into all, leaving everyone moved and spent in a profound way. I am so grateful for churches that allow–truly allow–the spirit to enter in and work in the hearts of those there.