This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 673: Building Churches to Last in Kenya with Maurice Chahilu This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Audio file 673 Maurice Chahilu - Building Churches to Last in Kenya.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan and you are listening to Restitudio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan Maurice Chihilu serves as a bishop in Western Kenya. 00:15 Sean Finnegan He coordinates a network of around two dozen churches who are part of Kingdom Life Abrahamic Faith Ministries, or as he likes to call it, KLAFM. 00:24 Sean Finnegan In this interview, I ask him what that is like and what problems he faces. 00:29 Sean Finnegan He talks at length about the importance of vetting pastors who want to join his group of churches. 00:34 Sean Finnegan He wants to make sure that those who affiliate with him are genuine, that they are teaching the same truths and that they are complying with the laws of the land. 00:44 Sean Finnegan He also explains how stringent government policies can result in pastors paying fines or even prison time for non-compliance. 00:52 Sean Finnegan Here now is episode 673, building churches to last in Kenya with Maurice Chihilu. 01:06 Sean Finnegan Hey everyone, I'm Pastor Sean Finnigan here with Pastor Maurice Chihilu of Kingdom Life Ministries in Kenya, Africa. 01:16 Sean Finnegan And I have known Maurice for 01:22 Sean Finnegan maybe about 20 years. 01:23 Sean Finnegan Exactly. 01:25 Sean Finnegan So a long time relationship. 01:27 Sean Finnegan We were born not only the same year, but also the same month, which is also this month. 01:34 Sean Finnegan And so your birthday is tomorrow? 01:36 Sean Finnegan After tomorrow. 01:37 Sean Finnegan After tomorrow. 01:38 Sean Finnegan And then mine is in a couple of weeks. 01:40 Sean Finnegan So we have met before in person back in 2018 when I visited with a number of other missionaries, Joe and Rebecca Martin, 01:52 Sean Finnegan and Linda Karlblom and Lacey Dunn. 01:56 Sean Finnegan And we had a great time back in 2018. 01:59 Sean Finnegan I'm just getting done with a missionary trip this year, 2026, where Maurice was our driver and we were visiting other churches outside of his network, churches associated with Living Hope. 02:14 Sean Finnegan But Maurice was a very great consultant and resource while we were 02:21 Sean Finnegan navigating a lot of difficult terrain, dealing with problem after problem. 02:28 Sean Finnegan Yeah, with the vehicle, with today the police. 02:33 Sean Finnegan And there are lots of challenges in doing ministry in Kenya. 02:39 Sean Finnegan And so I want to welcome you to this interview. 02:43 Sean Finnegan Thanks for joining me today, Maurice. 02:44 Maurice Chahilu Thank you so much, Pastor Sean. 02:46 Sean Finnegan So to begin with, Maurice, tell us about Kingdom Life Ministries. 02:51 Sean Finnegan What's it all about and what's the size and when did it start? 02:58 Sean Finnegan Give us some background information. 02:59 Maurice Chahilu Thank you so much. 03:00 Maurice Chahilu Kingdom Life Ministries began in my house actually around 2011. 03:08 Maurice Chahilu And by that time was still a banker and we had just come to the truth. 03:14 Maurice Chahilu Thankfully, with the help of my brother, Pastor Sean, 03:18 Maurice Chahilu who had been helping me online to arrive at the truth. 03:22 Maurice Chahilu So in the early 2015, we had officially organized ourselves, having been organized and met with the other teams across the nations from Church of God, Rebecca and John Martin around 2012, 2013, and officially the ministry was organized and registered in 2015. 03:47 Maurice Chahilu Okay. 03:47 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 03:48 Sean Finnegan So you are 11 years old now? 03:50 Maurice Chahilu Exactly. 03:51 Sean Finnegan As a ministry. 03:52 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 03:53 Sean Finnegan And you have grown to approximately 21 churches in the region where you are a bishop, an overseer. 04:02 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 04:02 Sean Finnegan And then another 20 plus churches in the other, yeah, in the southern region. 04:08 Sean Finnegan So tell us about what your life is like. 04:13 Sean Finnegan Do you travel a lot? 04:16 Sean Finnegan is it mostly handled through the phone communication? 04:19 Maurice Chahilu Yes, I have been traveling, but in the recent past few months ago, I've gone by. 04:27 Maurice Chahilu I have slowed down a little bit, traveling. 04:31 Maurice Chahilu But from the inception of the ministry, there has been a lot of traveling and coordinating the work of God across various regions and places with many people that are also desirous of 04:45 Maurice Chahilu knowing the truth that God has graciously enabled us to come to. 04:50 Maurice Chahilu So that is what has gone into and helped a lot in establishing and grounding the kingdom work in Kenya so far. 05:00 Maurice Chahilu But recently, as I already mentioned, we have taken a slow down a little bit for various purposes, for alignment, for coordination and maturing and stabilizing before 05:15 Maurice Chahilu we can continue with the expansion outward. 05:18 Maurice Chahilu So more of stabilizing internal structures. 05:23 Maurice Chahilu And most of what we are doing now is through online communication. 05:27 Sean Finnegan Okay. 05:27 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 05:28 Sean Finnegan And tell them about how many languages you speak. 05:33 Sean Finnegan Just for fun. 05:34 Maurice Chahilu Well, I speak. 05:36 Sean Finnegan You speak English. 05:37 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, speak English. 05:38 Maurice Chahilu I speak Swahili. 05:40 Maurice Chahilu And I speak my native language, Maragoli. 05:42 Sean Finnegan Maragoli, yes. 05:43 Maurice Chahilu Very good. 05:44 Sean Finnegan So Maurice is able to operate in multiple languages. 05:47 Sean Finnegan He also can understand other African dialects. 05:52 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 05:53 Sean Finnegan You can understand Luo a little bit, right? 05:55 Sean Finnegan Yes. 05:56 Sean Finnegan Was that the one you used? 05:57 Sean Finnegan Luo. 05:58 Sean Finnegan Okay. 05:58 Maurice Chahilu Luya. 05:59 Maurice Chahilu Kisi. 06:00 Sean Finnegan Okay. 06:01 Maurice Chahilu And other dialects in Luya. 06:04 Sean Finnegan Okay, very good. 06:06 Sean Finnegan And when you were 06:10 Sean Finnegan growing over the last 11 years. 06:14 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 06:16 Sean Finnegan Tell us about some experiences that you've had. 06:20 Maurice Chahilu As a minister. 06:21 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 06:22 Maurice Chahilu I have had great and wonderful experiences and equally negative ones or challenging experiences also. 06:33 Sean Finnegan I would expect that. 06:34 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 06:35 Maurice Chahilu So the past 11 years have gone into grounding 06:39 Maurice Chahilu mobilizing and onboarding of like-minded folks to push the agenda that was solid in my heart after God helped me to understand a few dynamics of the restorative truth. 06:56 Maurice Chahilu So thankfully we have had the work established and many people embracing the truth which we are 07:06 Maurice Chahilu proud about. 07:07 Maurice Chahilu And especially those that are from other backgrounds coming to realize the biblical truth and letting go the old version of their belief practices. 07:22 Maurice Chahilu That to me is encouraging. 07:24 Sean Finnegan Well, just so everyone knows what truth you're talking about, maybe you could just mention a few of the different points of truth. 07:32 Maurice Chahilu We grew up from a religious background 07:35 Maurice Chahilu where we were raised in practices and beliefs of the Bible, what we call the basic Bible doctrines. 07:42 Maurice Chahilu And we believed they were biblical. 07:46 Maurice Chahilu But as we began maturing in the things of God and the light began coming, we began to realize that not everything that we grew up knowing was actually biblical. 07:58 Maurice Chahilu Key among those elements was the truth about God. 08:02 Maurice Chahilu I grew up 08:04 Maurice Chahilu knowing that God was eternity. 08:06 Maurice Chahilu But after coming to the understanding of the Bible, I realized that the Bible frequently speaks about God being one person and he is the father, separating him from Jesus, who is his son according to the Bible, and the Holy Spirit also not being another God besides God, but being the active presence and the power of God in the world and the believers. 08:32 Maurice Chahilu That is basically one truth that I'm talking about. 08:36 Maurice Chahilu I also grew up knowing that the believers hope was to go to heaven after salvation and maybe after death. 08:46 Maurice Chahilu So the Bible challenged me that was never biblical. 08:51 Maurice Chahilu God never promised that believers upon death will be taken to heaven. 08:57 Maurice Chahilu So 08:59 Maurice Chahilu we embrace the restorative truths that believe us upon death, they remain in their graves and await for the blessed hope of the resurrection at the return of Christ. 09:09 Sean Finnegan And this was something that you originally were researching when you came across my website, which used to be called kingdomready.org. 09:21 Sean Finnegan I think a mentor of yours was 09:24 Sean Finnegan teaching you about the kingdom of God. 09:26 Sean Finnegan You went onto the internet. 09:28 Sean Finnegan This would be like the early 2000s when people went to the internet to, we used to call it surf the web, right? 09:35 Sean Finnegan And just go to websites and learn. 09:38 Sean Finnegan Now everyone uses AI. 09:39 Maurice Chahilu Exactly. 09:40 Sean Finnegan It's very different. 09:42 Sean Finnegan But yeah, so that was an early belief of yours that you were willing to change. 09:47 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 09:50 Sean Finnegan What else? 09:51 Sean Finnegan What other beliefs did you 09:54 Sean Finnegan Would you include in that? 09:56 Maurice Chahilu I also tied closely to the blessed hope of the resurrection is also the privilege God has accorded the saints to be able to rule and reign with Christ on earth during the millennium and in the kingdom to come, the eternal kingdom with God, that was the kingdom of God on earth. 10:16 Maurice Chahilu So that one also was so powerful. 10:18 Maurice Chahilu In fact, it's the basis upon which our ministry is founded. 10:22 Sean Finnegan Kingdom life ministries. 10:23 Maurice Chahilu Kingdom life ministries. 10:25 Maurice Chahilu And our rallying cry is actually declaring God's kingdom based on Matthew 24, 14. 10:30 Maurice Chahilu The good news about the kingdom of God will be heralded across the nations. 10:35 Sean Finnegan And I got to quote that verse this week when I was preaching. 10:38 Maurice Chahilu It's true. 10:39 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 10:41 Sean Finnegan So what other experiences would you like to share? 10:46 Maurice Chahilu Well, as we've been working towards that goal of 10:53 Maurice Chahilu emphasizing, advocating and preaching the truth. 10:55 Maurice Chahilu We have had both good and bad times. 10:58 Maurice Chahilu We have succeeded in establishing a very clear vision and a ministry builded and founded on the truth. 11:09 Maurice Chahilu We are not trying to replicate anybody's work or experiment something that we aren't sure about. 11:16 Maurice Chahilu Our hearts are rest assured that 11:19 Maurice Chahilu We found the middle view because the scriptures give us that confidence. 11:26 Maurice Chahilu And as much as we are moving forward, we also experience a few setbacks. 11:31 Maurice Chahilu Like not everybody embraces what we talk about. 11:37 Maurice Chahilu Many are sold out to religion that their minds are so tied and closed up. 11:42 Maurice Chahilu But by the grace of God, we keep learning every day on how to navigate those challenges. 11:48 Maurice Chahilu And also, initially, for me, it wasn't easy to stand criticism or bear criticism. 11:59 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 12:00 Maurice Chahilu Especially when you know you're right and somebody is trying to ridicule what you're doing. 12:05 Sean Finnegan Yeah, it's very hard. 12:06 Maurice Chahilu Critique what you're doing, no matter what evidence you produce, it was not very easy for me to get around that. 12:13 Maurice Chahilu But I realized that we are not serving man. 12:16 Maurice Chahilu We are serving God who called us. 12:19 Maurice Chahilu And so if we are striving to please him, that would be far better than trying to please men who are on the wrong. 12:27 Maurice Chahilu As long as we have the confidence from the word of God that this is what the Bible teaches. 12:32 Maurice Chahilu Over time, God has given us the courage and the grace to endure positive criticism and withstand. 12:42 Maurice Chahilu Jesus never promised us an easy time altogether. 12:44 Maurice Chahilu He said, in the world, you have trouble. 12:46 Maurice Chahilu but be of good cheer. 12:48 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 12:48 Maurice Chahilu So we have had to learn to be of good cheer. 12:51 Maurice Chahilu Also drawing comfort from the scriptures that when men ridicule us and persecute us for doing what is right, it is counted to us as a joy. 13:03 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 13:04 Maurice Chahilu And our faith grows stronger out of that situation. 13:08 Maurice Chahilu And then now God has also been gracious to help us to know how to present 13:14 Maurice Chahilu the truth without necessarily causing conflict. 13:17 Maurice Chahilu And also understanding that those who are in the world or who are not out of this truth are like patients who need time to come to that position of understanding the truth. 13:29 Sean Finnegan Sometimes it takes time. 13:30 Sean Finnegan Sometimes you have to research the subject and consider the different verses that both support and seem to go against the subject. 13:40 Maurice Chahilu Yes, sure. 13:41 Sean Finnegan And 13:43 Sean Finnegan depending on what the belief is, you might want to take a year or even more. 13:49 Sean Finnegan But is it your experience that the people you interact with, they're more open-minded or more close-minded? 14:01 Maurice Chahilu A good number. 14:02 Sean Finnegan Or is it a mix? 14:03 Maurice Chahilu A good number are open-minded and a few are open-minded and afraid. 14:10 Maurice Chahilu That is normally that 14:12 Maurice Chahilu fear of transition. 14:14 Maurice Chahilu Yes, somebody is fully convinced that this is the truth. 14:18 Maurice Chahilu Unfortunately, because of his established status or opposition in the religious world, it becomes hard for them to make that transition. 14:30 Sean Finnegan But maybe they fear to be excluded or cast out. 14:36 Maurice Chahilu Yes, And then also many fear 14:40 Maurice Chahilu because it has an impact, especially for those who arrive to this truth when they are already established in other religions or nominations and such like. 14:52 Maurice Chahilu But if you are just a Bible student seeking for the truth, you have nothing to lose. 14:57 Maurice Chahilu You have a better ground to start from. 15:00 Maurice Chahilu But those who have taken root in building organizations, that fear of facing 15:07 Maurice Chahilu Maybe the congregations you've been raising and telling them, look, we've been practicing a wrong thing for a long time. 15:13 Maurice Chahilu Not so many have that courage and grace to approach that. 15:17 Maurice Chahilu So they'd rather shy off and continue with what they have been doing for years, even if they are convinced otherwise, which is quite unfortunate. 15:26 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 15:27 Sean Finnegan Okay. 15:28 Sean Finnegan What else would you like to talk about? 15:30 Maurice Chahilu Well, I would like to talk about probably the future of Clapham. 15:36 Maurice Chahilu which is now Kingdom Life of Banning Fair Ministries. 15:40 Maurice Chahilu We have done a number of strategies and put in place a number of structures, but there still remains a burning passion on my heart that we haven't done enough yet. 15:55 Maurice Chahilu And if God gives us grace and allows us to see the future, it is in my heart that we reach as many people 16:06 Maurice Chahilu as possible, but that is only possible if we strengthen the current structures and systems we have and also try to come up with better and more strategies to achieve our objectives. 16:23 Maurice Chahilu God has graciously expanded us in numerous ways and we are reaching at a point whereby we are now opening up for strategic partnership in terms of 16:35 Maurice Chahilu allowing us to be able to enhance and realize our shared mission goals effectively. 16:42 Maurice Chahilu We don't just want to be busy and increasing but not having impact. 16:48 Maurice Chahilu Discipleship remains very critical to me and very key. 16:53 Maurice Chahilu Discipleship whereby we bring those churched and those uncharged to a place that they are able to be. 17:01 Maurice Chahilu Actually, that's what Jesus said. 17:02 Maurice Chahilu teach them to observe everything I've commanded you. 17:05 Maurice Chahilu Go and make disciples of all nations. 17:08 Maurice Chahilu So we don't want to make that mistake as a ministry where we have embraced the truth. 17:14 Maurice Chahilu We have arrived at a place where we are comfortable and we think we have arrived and we settle. 17:20 Maurice Chahilu There is still great work ahead of us, great mission fields, but we need to develop our capacity 17:27 Maurice Chahilu to strengthen the systems we already have to be able to effectively undertake and achieve that objective. 17:35 Maurice Chahilu So it involves having a way that the current churches which we have are able to pull together in a common direction, in a common understanding, and develop some framework that can easily be adaptable to be able to reach the regions within which they are represented. 17:56 Maurice Chahilu And then also 17:58 Maurice Chahilu as God connects us regionally and nationally, there are many opportunities even outside Kenya, within Kenya, outside our villages, our local locality areas. 18:11 Maurice Chahilu But there is need for coordinated strategy and structure to be able to achieve that. 18:18 Maurice Chahilu And like right now where we are feeling like, I personally feel like I'm not really 18:24 Maurice Chahilu hitting that as expected. 18:27 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 18:27 Maurice Chahilu So it is my prayer that as we meet and work with our pastors, we are going to find a constructive way to be able to achieve that goal. 18:42 Sean Finnegan So tell me about some of the problems you see in communicating and developing the structure you need for the ministry. 18:52 Maurice Chahilu Okay. 18:53 Maurice Chahilu As I said, the ministry has grown in the last years, probably 11, 12 there. 19:00 Maurice Chahilu The vision is clear, the mandate is clear, but constantly we experience challenges with capacity. 19:12 Maurice Chahilu There are challenges with capacity. 19:16 Maurice Chahilu And unlike the past years where much has depended on me, I have 19:21 Maurice Chahilu also had the challenge of delegation. 19:24 Maurice Chahilu And of course, for there to be sustainability, we needed resources and systems. 19:34 Maurice Chahilu So those are some of the challenges that we are facing now. 19:39 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 19:41 Maurice Chahilu Okay. 19:42 Sean Finnegan And what would some solutions be? 19:45 Maurice Chahilu The solutions, number one, 19:48 Maurice Chahilu which I believe through strategic partnership, of course, with Church of God, we are beginning to see strengthening of a system leadership whereby we are looking at developing the next generation leaders and trying to diversify the mandate as many as possible. 20:15 Maurice Chahilu so that it doesn't depend on one person only to carry it and to accomplish it. 20:24 Maurice Chahilu In the event one person is overwhelmed, we are coming up with a press of developing leaders across the nation to carry the same vision, the same mandate in their regions. 20:39 Maurice Chahilu But still, that system or structure requires support 20:46 Maurice Chahilu Our churches are scattered across the nation in remote areas mostly. 20:53 Maurice Chahilu So it still needs resources to be able to develop those leaders. 21:01 Maurice Chahilu Even though you want them to work in their region, they must be developed before they can be effective in that, which is currently lacking right now. 21:12 Sean Finnegan So as I would see it, you have really two options. 21:15 Sean Finnegan Either you can go in person on a motorbike or your own vehicle. 21:22 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 21:22 Sean Finnegan Or you can bring them to your training center. 21:26 Maurice Chahilu Yes, and have them equipped. 21:27 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 21:28 Sean Finnegan So what would you say is preferable or more effective? 21:36 Maurice Chahilu Both are effective and preferable. 21:38 Sean Finnegan Okay. 21:38 Maurice Chahilu It's a matter of balancing. 21:40 Maurice Chahilu There are times when going to them will be more important because you won't just meet the leaders only, you interact with the local congregations and edify them as well. 21:53 Maurice Chahilu Now, when there is a need for the leaders only, maybe closing the lay leaders, that would be preferring to have them come at a central place and be able to equip them 22:09 Maurice Chahilu and then they go back and be able to develop to their local communications. 22:13 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 22:14 Sean Finnegan Okay. 22:16 Sean Finnegan What else would you say as far as your vision for the future? 22:23 Maurice Chahilu My vision for the future still remains as I've seen that to see healthy churches spread across, not just many churches that are not healthy. 22:36 Maurice Chahilu but healthy leaders, healthy congregations, healthy churches that have come and are still coming to the embodiment of the truth that we share commonly. 22:49 Maurice Chahilu That to me remains strong and I believe God that it is achievable. 22:54 Maurice Chahilu That's why we have come to a place whereby we are trying to think out-of-the-box. 23:01 Maurice Chahilu What can we do to ensure we achieve that? 23:05 Maurice Chahilu And that one part I have told you is to invest a lot in leadership development. 23:11 Maurice Chahilu Because like now, I believe that I'm celebrating my birthday in a day's time. 23:19 Maurice Chahilu So as years go by, we are also advancing age, we are beginning to think about who will take on the mantle, who will take on the battle. 23:30 Maurice Chahilu There is more need now to invest greatly and heavily 23:35 Maurice Chahilu in leadership development. 23:37 Maurice Chahilu And there have to be men and women that have been tried and tested and proven that they have a sound understanding of the truth we are talking about so that you can be sure that the congregations also are being nurtured and fed rightly. 23:55 Maurice Chahilu And like a situation which is worrying me right now is that due to 23:59 Maurice Chahilu scatter the congregations which you rarely visit, they rarely come over for nourishment. 24:06 Maurice Chahilu Only God knows what they are feeling on. 24:08 Maurice Chahilu Not majority have access to online interactions and teachings. 24:13 Maurice Chahilu And if their leaders fall short of that insight, then we could be having a social whereby we are simply moving on with the old system, which is worrying. 24:25 Sean Finnegan Yeah, So you're looking to develop existing pastors in the churches? 24:31 Maurice Chahilu Exactly. 24:32 Sean Finnegan You also want those pastors to train up their successors. 24:37 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 24:38 Sean Finnegan And what about you? 24:39 Sean Finnegan Do you have someone in mind for your taking over the overseer position in time or you are still looking? 24:47 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, recently we held our, not recently, a few years ago, that was 2024, I believe. 24:53 Maurice Chahilu We had our first national convention where we had all leaders coming up from the southern north. 25:03 Maurice Chahilu And we put in place a structure. 25:08 Maurice Chahilu We wanted to be sure that it's as clear as the day that the ministry knows where it is going as we pursue the vision 25:21 Maurice Chahilu we talked about the succession strategy also. 25:25 Maurice Chahilu So everybody, including the young ones, based on our structure, should be able to know in the event the appointed bishop who is the spiritual leader is out of the picture, what happens. 25:41 Maurice Chahilu So that one was made very clear. 25:43 Sean Finnegan Oh, good. 25:44 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 25:45 Maurice Chahilu And it was suggested that we came up with regions 25:50 Maurice Chahilu Like now we have the South region, we have the North region, and we have other developing regions that are still acting under the North region because the leadership hasn't been developed yet. 26:02 Maurice Chahilu So we have been doing development and then onboarding them fully as regions and having a leader joining the board as a regional leader. 26:15 Maurice Chahilu So in this infrastructure, 26:18 Maurice Chahilu we have the office of the bishop and then we have the regional leaders who are overseers, regional overseers. 26:27 Sean Finnegan I see. 26:27 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 26:28 Maurice Chahilu From the regional overseers, we come down to local church pastors. 26:34 Maurice Chahilu So in the event of a problem in the bishop's office, any regional overseer is a candidate to the bishop's office who is a spiritual leader. 26:48 Maurice Chahilu However, there are some dynamics that must be looked into before he is approved by the governing council. 26:58 Maurice Chahilu The basic ones from the Bible, he must be a man of one wife. 27:04 Maurice Chahilu His house is in order. 27:06 Maurice Chahilu He must be above 40 years. 27:09 Maurice Chahilu He must have a basic knowledge of the basic truths that will be taught because you cannot teach him what you don't know. 27:16 Maurice Chahilu and so on. 27:17 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 27:18 Maurice Chahilu So that is what we have been doing. 27:20 Maurice Chahilu Now, I cannot tell you I have a specific person. 27:24 Maurice Chahilu It is an open check where the regional overseers gather and they know themselves that any one of us can qualify for this office, but they can do a vetting based on the requirements set down. 27:38 Maurice Chahilu But at my local church, I have two pastors I'm developing, Pastor Karen and Pastor Lucas. 27:45 Maurice Chahilu in the local congregation. 27:48 Maurice Chahilu I've been away with you. 27:50 Maurice Chahilu This is going to be the second Sunday. 27:52 Maurice Chahilu This is the second Sunday, actually. 27:53 Maurice Chahilu Yesterday. 27:53 Sean Finnegan Yesterday. 27:54 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 27:55 Maurice Chahilu And I don't have a problem that there's a problem. 27:57 Maurice Chahilu There might be a problem at home because I have trained them, have equipped them. 28:01 Sean Finnegan They can handle it. 28:02 Maurice Chahilu They can handle it and they can multitask. 28:05 Maurice Chahilu They can handle the local issues and even if the emerges are regional issue, they should be able to provide a response. 28:12 Maurice Chahilu So that is delegation and empowerment. 28:14 Maurice Chahilu which is already working effectively. 28:16 Maurice Chahilu I may not be so sure with other regions if that is possible, but I would want to be confident where I am that it is a possibility. 28:25 Maurice Chahilu And that's why I'm saying that we have to strengthen our system whereby we have every data we need available and also every challenge we have across the regions can be known and a way of being able to address it also. 28:41 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 28:41 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 28:43 Sean Finnegan Very good. 28:43 Sean Finnegan So you're looking to establish something that has the structure and the strength, the continuity to survive into the next generation so that all the work that you've done will not just disappear when you die or others. 29:04 Sean Finnegan What else would you like to talk about? 29:08 Maurice Chahilu I would like to also appreciate our 29:12 Maurice Chahilu missionary partners, Church of God Abrahamic Faith or Church of God General Conference. 29:18 Maurice Chahilu I would like to extend a great appreciation to LHI for the overwhelming immense support they have put in to make sure that this work is what it is today. 29:33 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, they have been great partners financially in times 29:40 Maurice Chahilu when we have needed them and we still need them more and more, in fact more than we ever needed because now with expansion and growth comes more challenges, as I said earlier, both negative and positive. 29:57 Maurice Chahilu So we are trying to relook into our shared vision, goals and objectives. 30:05 Maurice Chahilu We are trying to look into 30:08 Maurice Chahilu of finances of the ministry, funding models, and also trying to look into administrative issues, local administrative issues, and how they align with the shared mission goals with our partners outside Glafon. 30:30 Maurice Chahilu Because as I said, we are looking at growth and also balancing it with health. 30:37 Maurice Chahilu And then 30:38 Maurice Chahilu So our mission partners also wanted to trust God that if we can come up with a strategy that would be efficient to help achieve the already underlying need within the ministry, that would be without a lot of maybe bureaucracy around it and interference in terms of maybe, for example, 31:09 Maurice Chahilu the local leadership of the church or of the ministry has a way of assessing situations across churches and making some determinations in as far as support of shared resources, distribution of shared resources. 31:30 Maurice Chahilu We don't want to have a situation whereby we are ending up just with 31:37 Maurice Chahilu a bunch of churches that seem not to be regulated in any way. 31:42 Maurice Chahilu Recently I made a statement that it is important for all our churches to know, our pastors, that in Kenya, all our churches have what we call a shared registration certificate. 32:02 Maurice Chahilu And also a shared 32:07 Maurice Chahilu revenue PM that is for compliance with the government. 32:14 Maurice Chahilu And the accountability part rests with the head office. 32:20 Maurice Chahilu We are now having a session whereby, because many churches are joining a coming board that do not have an understanding of that shared responsibility, 32:32 Maurice Chahilu It is not just about showing the platform. 32:35 Maurice Chahilu There are other expectations also that must be communicated and made very clear. 32:42 Sean Finnegan Well, if they misbehave, that would reflect badly on kingdom life. 32:47 Sean Finnegan It reflects badly on ministries, right? 32:49 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 32:50 Sean Finnegan And that could compromise the registration of all the churches. 32:53 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 32:54 Sean Finnegan If you had a pastor who was doing something illegal or causing the whole 33:01 Sean Finnegan Registration with the, and this is, maybe you can explain a little bit more too, because this is a major issue. 33:07 Sean Finnegan If you aren't registered with the government, then you can be fined, you can be imprisoned. 33:14 Sean Finnegan Talk a little bit more about that. 33:16 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, registration in Kenya has been a great issue because many churches operate illegally without any legal mandate. 33:28 Maurice Chahilu And in the recent years, the government has been 33:31 Maurice Chahilu having many of them on spot. 33:34 Maurice Chahilu There are several communications that have been made regarding that and only God knows it's like a ticking bomb. 33:43 Maurice Chahilu Anytime that bill is reviewed or acted upon, many organizations can find themselves with no registration overnight. 33:55 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 33:56 Maurice Chahilu And so I want to make it clear to our churches and our pastors that we all have a shared certificate of registration. 34:05 Maurice Chahilu It has expectations that we comply with the requirements of the government. 34:12 Maurice Chahilu Conduct ministry as per our constitution. 34:17 Maurice Chahilu And then also outside legal requirements, the ministry itself has expectations on the churches. 34:23 Maurice Chahilu Of course. 34:24 Maurice Chahilu you cannot be using our identity and you do not promote our shared values like the doctrines we stand for. 34:34 Maurice Chahilu So there has to be an in-house way of ensuring and making sure that any church that is called by our name is actually, if not 100% to a greater level, promoting and 34:52 Maurice Chahilu teaching and sharing the doctrines and the teachings that we are holding together. 34:58 Maurice Chahilu Well, as I said, that having made it clear that all the churches under the registration of Kingdom Life Abrahamic Faith Ministries in Kenya have a shared document. 35:12 Maurice Chahilu It makes it binding on them to act in a manner that sustains 35:19 Maurice Chahilu the expectations that are placed on the ministry by the government and other regulators like Kenya Regulatory Authority, Registrar of Societies and all that. 35:32 Maurice Chahilu We have recently had a situation whereby because of the lack of communication, some of the churches tend to misunderstand that because they are being supported 35:49 Maurice Chahilu by our partners directory without the involvement of head office. 35:55 Maurice Chahilu They are not answerable or responsible to whatever happens. 36:00 Maurice Chahilu And that one in a way undermines the administrative structure. 36:05 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 36:05 Sean Finnegan And your concern is also that you want to be able to impose checks on these churches. 36:18 Sean Finnegan to ensure that they are agreeing with the beliefs of Kingdom Life Ministries and the values of Kingdom Life Ministries. 36:28 Sean Finnegan So if somebody had a different doctrine, that would be a problem. 36:32 Sean Finnegan And you need some system to know that that's happening so that you can address that problem. 36:38 Sean Finnegan And if somebody, maybe they have the doctrine correct, but they're committing adultery or they're doing some other sin, embezzling money or whatever, like 36:47 Sean Finnegan You need some way to find out if that's happening. 36:50 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 36:51 Sean Finnegan And right now, there's no way to find out. 36:53 Maurice Chahilu Right now. 36:54 Sean Finnegan Other than going and asking and hoping they just tell you the truth. 37:00 Maurice Chahilu Like we have in our constitution how churches can be onboarded. 37:07 Maurice Chahilu Because in our strategy, we can open totally new congregations where there's need and disciples. 37:16 Maurice Chahilu But still, as we teach the word of God online and other various platforms, people come to hear about and they embrace our belief system and they express interest of aligning and joining. 37:29 Maurice Chahilu So those ones, they come in when they are already in ministry with their own structures and systems. 37:36 Maurice Chahilu So there is need for at least a review and a vetting so that 37:45 Maurice Chahilu we know if this person is joining us and he is coming from an already existing Ministry has he understood what the ministry is doing in stands for yeah now if for example I'm the bishop and there is a church that is coming on board in a different region yeah that I'm not aware of they are coming under this affiliation to use our registration to use my license like for example I have a personal license 38:15 Maurice Chahilu that one that enables me now to serve the churches. 38:19 Maurice Chahilu I must know which pastor is using my license. 38:23 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 38:24 Maurice Chahilu But I'm in a situation sometimes whereby I just hear there are some churches that have joined without proper order, proper structure. 38:35 Maurice Chahilu That is not what we envision initially. 38:38 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 38:39 Sean Finnegan So you want growth, but you want quality? 38:42 Maurice Chahilu Quality and also controlled or kind of? 38:48 Sean Finnegan Yes, No, I understand. 38:49 Sean Finnegan You're making good sense. 38:51 Sean Finnegan Now, what people might not realize is that there's an incredible appeal to join an established umbrella organization, especially now in a climate with the government where they're putting forward a bill that if you're not part of an umbrella organization, you can't have a church that's registered with the government, which means that if you 39:15 Sean Finnegan were found to be in violation, you would have to pay fines or go to prison. 39:19 Sean Finnegan I mean, this is a very, very serious thing. 39:21 Sean Finnegan It's not law currently in Kenya, but it's gone before the Senate many times. 39:27 Sean Finnegan And it is law in Rwanda, which is a neighboring country. 39:30 Sean Finnegan So you are understandably concerned about this. 39:36 Sean Finnegan Other pastors are 39:39 Sean Finnegan a little bit more eager than normal to join something so that they can be protected. 39:44 Sean Finnegan And not everyone's very concerned about beliefs or practices. 39:50 Sean Finnegan They just want to serve God and be legitimate in as easy a way as possible. 40:00 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, right. 40:02 Sean Finnegan Sorry, go ahead. 40:04 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, so that has been my concern. 40:06 Maurice Chahilu And also we are trying to build a family. 40:09 Maurice Chahilu in as much as we come from various regions, we have great need to identify as one body, one people with a common belief, one culture, values, one value system. 40:22 Maurice Chahilu So there has to be a way, if not mandatory, just a common family endeavor that can create sustainability. 40:34 Maurice Chahilu These interactions require 40:37 Maurice Chahilu intentionality require open minds. 40:43 Maurice Chahilu So the conflict was coming in whereby if a church is found to be out of order with the expectations maybe from head office, those expectations are interpreted as like controlling 41:03 Maurice Chahilu But in the real sense, it's just everywhere, expectable, standard everywhere, that you cannot just function from the air. 41:12 Maurice Chahilu And now what fuels that kind of mentality is the lack of communication and clarity, which is something I began working on recently informing our strategic partners that allow that regardless of there being support to charge us directly, 41:32 Maurice Chahilu the parent ministry should be involved in a way that, or rather should even be made aware of what is happening for record keeping, for data exchanging there. 41:46 Maurice Chahilu So that even if you ask me like now, how many churches do you have? 41:53 Maurice Chahilu I should be able to know because I have the data available. 41:57 Maurice Chahilu Now, it is something that we have developed as a policy. 42:01 Maurice Chahilu that needs to be addressed by the local churches willingly and voluntarily and happily because it's a way of life. 42:11 Maurice Chahilu But sometimes it's interpreted as a control measure. 42:16 Sean Finnegan Well, what you're doing is you're going from a growth model to a more established model. 42:26 Sean Finnegan And when an organization, say for example, a business is very young, it's just 42:31 Sean Finnegan grows, grows, grows. 42:32 Sean Finnegan That's the only focus. 42:34 Sean Finnegan Sell more, expand, right? 42:38 Sean Finnegan Borrow money like crazy. 42:40 Sean Finnegan We don't know how we're going to pay it, but we'll just sell more stuff or make more, whatever. 42:46 Sean Finnegan And then if it actually succeeds, then it has to develop systems of what they would call quality control. 42:54 Sean Finnegan So for example, right now, we're in the Hilton Darden Inn. 42:58 Sean Finnegan It's a very large 43:00 Sean Finnegan company in the United States, and we're in Nairobi, and it feels like a Hilton Garden Inn in the United States. 43:09 Sean Finnegan Even though almost nothing else in Nairobi really matches what we have in the United States, this building does. 43:16 Sean Finnegan Even the materials are very similar to what we have in America, if not identical, because they have a great deal of quality control in this organization. 43:27 Sean Finnegan And so 43:30 Sean Finnegan What I hear you saying is that Kingdom Life Ministry is shifting from the early stages of disorganized, just grow, grow, grow, into a more stable situation where there is concern about legitimacy with the government and quality control among the churches that are part of the network. 43:53 Sean Finnegan So this is, I think it's a good thing. 43:57 Sean Finnegan But some pastors maybe are interpreting this as you, we say in America, getting a big head. 44:06 Sean Finnegan Where you think you're so great, King Maurice. 44:09 Sean Finnegan Yeah, You're going to tell everyone what to do. 44:13 Sean Finnegan And that's not where you're coming from, is it? 44:17 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 44:17 Maurice Chahilu At the end of the day, if kingdom life is found to be in 44:24 Maurice Chahilu any legal issue? 44:26 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 44:26 Maurice Chahilu It's middle comfort. 44:27 Sean Finnegan Yes. 44:28 Sean Finnegan Right. 44:29 Sean Finnegan So it's your blood on the line. 44:30 Maurice Chahilu If any legal identity of the ministry, you can't be using our name and you're just doing your own way. 44:39 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 44:39 Maurice Chahilu Doing your own things. 44:40 Sean Finnegan But this is sort of the Kenyan way. 44:42 Sean Finnegan Yeah, unfortunately. 44:44 Sean Finnegan You have a lot of freedom, which as an American, I appreciate that. 44:50 Sean Finnegan You know, this idea of like, 44:51 Sean Finnegan I'm just going to start my own church. 44:53 Sean Finnegan And so many of the churches I see are some guy who built a church on his property next to his house. 45:00 Sean Finnegan And he's like, now we got a church. 45:02 Sean Finnegan And there was no thought of, oh, we should fill out paperwork, or we should go to Bible college, or we should write up a statement of faith. 45:13 Sean Finnegan There's a kind of freedom mindset, an entrepreneurial mindset 45:19 Sean Finnegan to starting churches, although churches don't really provide a living in Kenya. 45:26 Sean Finnegan All the pastors I know, including you, are bi-vocational, and you are selling honey. 45:32 Sean Finnegan You have honeybees, bees that could kill you, African killer bees, but you are managing them and producing hundreds of kilos of 45:47 Sean Finnegan honey. 45:48 Sean Finnegan And you're selling the honey and you have other businesses because you are not able to receive from the offerings enough to supply your family needs. 45:59 Sean Finnegan And you're more successful. 46:01 Sean Finnegan Some others are barely making it buy with just farming or maybe some tea or sugar cane and then bringing that down to the 46:13 Sean Finnegan big companies to sell it to them to refine it. 46:17 Sean Finnegan And they're just making a little bit to get them through. 46:20 Sean Finnegan And so in other words, you're not, if I can speak for you and then you correct me, you're not looking to build a kingdom of Maurice. 46:32 Sean Finnegan What you're looking to do is ensure quality church behavior. 46:43 Sean Finnegan And what your goal is, to have a vetting system for new churches to join? 46:54 Maurice Chahilu Yes. 46:55 Sean Finnegan And then ongoing communication with existing churches to make sure they're still compliant. 47:00 Sean Finnegan You need a compliance protocol. 47:03 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, and of course training, communicating and training. 47:08 Sean Finnegan Right, because they might, somebody who joins, they might have just heard, oh, if I join this, I'll be part of this umbrella organization. 47:17 Sean Finnegan They might not even know who you are or what the beliefs are. 47:21 Sean Finnegan They're just like, yeah, I'll join. 47:22 Sean Finnegan Sounds good. 47:23 Maurice Chahilu That's why I wanted now our partners to understand that in Africa, if in any way you are affiliated or related cooperation wise to 47:37 Maurice Chahilu a foreign organization or a body or a church, there has to be a very clear way of determining the motivation for joining. 47:48 Sean Finnegan Yes. 47:50 Maurice Chahilu Because some will join not because they are interested in what you're doing, but they know by becoming part of you, they kind of automatically have access and a connection to the other body. 48:04 Maurice Chahilu Like they, see the 48:07 Maurice Chahilu The whites. 48:09 Maurice Chahilu All right. 48:09 Maurice Chahilu Some mentality in Africa right now. 48:11 Maurice Chahilu Zumbus. 48:12 Maurice Chahilu The Zumbus. 48:13 Maurice Chahilu They want connections. 48:14 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 48:15 Maurice Chahilu And of course, at the end of the day, financial support or monetary support. 48:19 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 48:20 Sean Finnegan That's totally understandable. 48:22 Maurice Chahilu That should not be the motivation. 48:23 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 48:24 Maurice Chahilu So it is of importance that our partners understand and allow for the local structure to be in charge. 48:37 Maurice Chahilu of the vetting and even disciplinary issues locally, whereby it is not good to have a decision made in the US concerning a local dispute that could have easily been resolved locally. 48:58 Maurice Chahilu You see that? 48:59 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 49:00 Maurice Chahilu That one undermines and weakens the local leadership structure. 49:05 Maurice Chahilu The pastor now ends up thinking this ministry or this leader is in no position to give direction. 49:15 Maurice Chahilu The board sat and agreed on a direction that the bishop's office will be the highest and the spiritual leader of the ministry. 49:28 Maurice Chahilu So if the board agreed and saw that fit, and it is not limited to one person forever, 49:34 Maurice Chahilu Even the one who is having problems with the current bishop today may be the one in the office tomorrow. 49:42 Maurice Chahilu So it's about developing a structure and a system that is going to support sustainability, accountability, healthy growth, coordination and unity. 49:54 Maurice Chahilu When we began, we had some differences with the southern region. 49:58 Maurice Chahilu We worked through all those issues and were able to bring the region together. 50:03 Maurice Chahilu And so far we have a very healthy relationship. 50:07 Maurice Chahilu And unfortunately, with the recent developments we ran into in the northern, I still believe that as we have begun to make communications in the south and in the north at large, we are going to have our first leaders or pastors meeting, hopefully and God willing nationwide to be able to 50:32 Maurice Chahilu have a kind of, and the same council and review. 50:38 Sean Finnegan Hopefully it's better than the nice scene council. 50:40 Maurice Chahilu Yeah, better. 50:40 Maurice Chahilu It will be better, of course. 50:42 Sean Finnegan Hopefully the president of Kenya doesn't show up or the prime minister. 50:46 Maurice Chahilu No, it will just be within the fraternity of club. 50:49 Maurice Chahilu I have already made that communication to past us that this is my heart. 50:54 Sean Finnegan Okay, is this on the calendar? 50:56 Sean Finnegan You have a date for this. 50:58 Maurice Chahilu To meet and agree on a date so that when every pastor has received feedback from some of them, they are showing positivity about it and confirming the need of it. 51:11 Sean Finnegan Well, would it be fair to say that you also will need to provide funds for their transportation or they would be able to provide for their own transportation? 51:23 Maurice Chahilu Well, this is our initiative. 51:26 Maurice Chahilu There is 51:26 Maurice Chahilu a total need to agree that some may be in total need, especially those who have to travel, because we must agree on a venue, most preferably at the head office or any other place, because we shall just be the local green or pastors. 51:43 Maurice Chahilu Then if we all are in agreement over a debt and a venue, then we can now lobby for support for those that will be traveling. 51:53 Maurice Chahilu And we agree how many days are we going to meet and talk? 51:56 Sean Finnegan Well, there's travel, but then there's also food, housing. 52:00 Maurice Chahilu No, housing is not an issue because if it's the head office, we have housing. 52:04 Maurice Chahilu We provide accommodation. 52:06 Maurice Chahilu And that's what normally makes it most ideal to have them come there. 52:10 Maurice Chahilu However, it would be our wish that we have it rotational. 52:13 Maurice Chahilu But because it's something I'm considering to do for the first time, I do not want us to remain stuck where we are because honestly, we will not be building 52:23 Maurice Chahilu that way. 52:25 Maurice Chahilu And I'm making a special appeal to our partners to allow the system to develop an internal mechanism to be able to address those issues locally. 52:37 Maurice Chahilu I want to be able to call the overseer of the South and we speak on a brotherly level and coordinate issues. 52:44 Maurice Chahilu I want to be able to call any other emerging leader because I cannot do everything, but we need to do 52:52 Maurice Chahilu all of us to work in a coordinated manner. 52:55 Maurice Chahilu So those seeming barriers are the things that I wish to deal with before the end of this year. 53:01 Maurice Chahilu And when the new year comes, we are on a new plan. 53:07 Sean Finnegan So your vision for the future then is to have the churches have better accountability and accountability will lead to better health? 53:17 Maurice Chahilu Remember, we are working towards 53:21 Maurice Chahilu raising and establishing an identical ministry that would eventually be able to operate as an affiliation of churches. 53:36 Maurice Chahilu We have a vision, we're not just running. 53:38 Maurice Chahilu I did this with you in my first interview. 53:41 Maurice Chahilu The vision still remains, tell the vision, that we need to do not just spiritual growth, but also numerical growth. 53:50 Maurice Chahilu But we have posed on numerical growth currently because of the structural issues, which we are now working on. 53:57 Maurice Chahilu Of course, with every growth comes challenges. 53:59 Maurice Chahilu So we take a pause, address the challenges, but then we don't lose track of the vision because there is also other interfering forces from our side that we must be clear about how to organize ourselves. 54:13 Maurice Chahilu As and when the time comes, we are not caught off guard. 54:17 Maurice Chahilu And that is for the future of the ministry. 54:20 Maurice Chahilu Yeah. 54:21 Sean Finnegan All right. 54:21 Sean Finnegan Well, we're running out of time here. 54:24 Sean Finnegan So do you have any concluding thoughts? 54:28 Maurice Chahilu My concluding thoughts would be that we continue to develop a greater partnership strategy that will help fulfill our primary goal of disciple making. 54:47 Maurice Chahilu And then also 54:49 Maurice Chahilu We trust God to help us and open doors for resources because as we develop that strategy, it requires resources to be able to fulfill. 55:01 Maurice Chahilu We continue to appeal to our supporters and partners across the nation and even outside the nation to remember us and to keep us in prayers. 55:11 Maurice Chahilu And if the Lord so touches you and puts it on your heart, 55:16 Maurice Chahilu find any way that you can partner with us in making sure that this objective becomes a reality, you are welcome. 55:27 Sean Finnegan Okay. 55:27 Sean Finnegan All right, well thanks for talking with me today. 55:35 Sean Finnegan That brings this interview to a close. 55:37 Sean Finnegan What did you think? 55:37 Sean Finnegan Come on over to restitudio.org and find episode 673, Building Churches to Last in Kenya with Maurice Chihilu and leave your comments, questions, and feedback there. 55:49 Sean Finnegan I wonder if you have heard about the two upcoming UCA events happening on opposite sides of the world in October and November. 55:58 Sean Finnegan The first is the Unitarian Christian Alliance annual conference in the United States 56:04 Sean Finnegan held this year at Tempe, Arizona at Lakeshore Bible Church. 56:08 Sean Finnegan Speakers there include Will Barlow, the pastor of Compass Christian Church, Mark Kane, who is self-titled as Podcastinator with the UCA, myself, who is a pastor at Living Hope International Ministries, and the host of Rest Studio, Suzanne Lakin, who is an author and writing coach, Sam Tiedemann, who is the host of the Transfigured podcast, 56:32 Sean Finnegan and Dale Tuggy, the chair of the UCA. 56:36 Sean Finnegan Also attending this event will be Dustin Smith of the Biblical Unitarian Podcast, Jerry Wearwell of the REV Bible Translation, Keegan Chandler, the author of The God of Jesus in Light of Christian Dogma, and Seth Ross, the executive director of the Church of God General Conference. 56:53 Sean Finnegan and along with many more. 56:55 Sean Finnegan So this is an event you don't want to miss. 56:58 Sean Finnegan It's only 100 bucks to come, which includes your food for the whole weekend. 57:03 Sean Finnegan Actually, it's technically not a weekend. 57:05 Sean Finnegan It's Thursday night. 57:06 Sean Finnegan Food is Friday, Saturday, and it ends Saturday night. 57:09 Sean Finnegan So if you need to get back for church on Sunday, you should be able to do that, no problem. 57:13 Sean Finnegan Or you can join in at the church service at Lakeshore Bible Church where Levi Salyers is the pastor. 57:18 Sean Finnegan And that's where I plan on attending. 57:21 Sean Finnegan that Sunday. 57:22 Sean Finnegan So once again, the dates are October 22nd to the 24th. 57:27 Sean Finnegan You can get more information at UnitarianChristianAlliance.org. 57:31 Sean Finnegan That's the official website where you can find events from the menu and then under events, go to upcoming events where there's a link for registration. 57:40 Sean Finnegan You do have to register to come. 57:42 Sean Finnegan That's required for obviously quantities of food and seating and that sort of thing. 57:47 Sean Finnegan So hope to see some of you there. 57:49 Sean Finnegan If you are there, don't be shy. 57:50 Sean Finnegan Come up and say hi. 57:52 Sean Finnegan I think it's going to be a great time together to listen to some scholarship, also some practical workshops, choice is yours, whatever you'd like to attend, and have lots of time at the meals to hang out and get to know each other. 58:04 Sean Finnegan Also in November 2026, November 20th to the 22nd at the Don Rowland Center in Karapiro, New Zealand, just 10 minutes outside of Cambridge, there is going to be the New Zealand UCA conference. 58:20 Sean Finnegan And that is organized by Zach Mayo of Living Hope Christian Church in New Zealand. 58:27 Sean Finnegan And I know that Dale Tuggie is planning to go there and to be speaking at this event, along with a number of Kiwis and Aussies as well. 58:38 Sean Finnegan So if you are nearer to North America, come to the UCA event in a couple weeks in Arizona. 58:44 Sean Finnegan And if you're on the other side of the world or in Asia or on the Pacific Islands, certainly Australia and New Zealand, come to the UCA New Zealand Conference and support the good work that's happening all around the world. 58:58 Sean Finnegan Well, that's it for today. 58:59 Sean Finnegan Thanks everybody for tuning in. 59:01 Sean Finnegan If you'd like to support us, the best thing you can do is share this episode with others. 59:06 Sean Finnegan And if you'd like to support us financially, you can certainly do that by making a monthly donation at restitudio.org. 59:11 Sean Finnegan I'll catch you next week and remember, the truth has nothing to fear.