This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 672: New LHIM Churches in Kenya with Andrew Ondari This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Audio file 672 Andrew Ondari Interview.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan and you are listening to Restitudio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan As many of you know, I'm not only the host of this podcast. 00:16 Sean Finnegan My main job is working for Living Hope International Ministries, which is a network of churches, home fellowships, and individuals seeking to make authentic disciples of Christ. 00:29 Sean Finnegan Now, in addition to my local church responsibilities as a pastor, I also travel on behalf of LHIM to visit churches within our network, help start new ones, and affiliate with existing churches that share the same beliefs. 00:44 Sean Finnegan This brings me to Andrew Andari of Kisi, Kenya. 00:49 Sean Finnegan He grew up Mormon, but eventually came to question the legitimacy of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. 00:55 Sean Finnegan After he decided the Bible was the only book he needed for faith and practice, he came across our ministry website, lhim.org. 01:04 Sean Finnegan As he studied the content on the site, he came to believe in the kingdom of God coming on earth, hell as destruction rather than eternal torment, and Jesus as the human Messiah instead of a God man. 01:16 Sean Finnegan Having felt the call to ministry, he started a church on a piece of property near his home and began connecting with other pastors in his area. 01:25 Sean Finnegan A-team of us went to visit him a few weeks back and while I was there, I recorded this interview. 01:31 Sean Finnegan I hope you enjoy hearing his story and learning about what incredible opportunities are opening up in Kenya. 01:38 Sean Finnegan Here now is episode 672, New LHIM Churches in Kenya with Andrew Andari. 01:53 Sean Finnegan Hello everyone, I am here with Pastor Andrew Ondari of Kisi, Kenya. 01:59 Sean Finnegan And it is my great pleasure to talk to him today and hear about his story of faith, his journey of faith. 02:07 Sean Finnegan So welcome Pastor Andrew, so glad to talk to you today. 02:11 Andrew Ondari Oh, thank you, thank you Pastor Sean for coming all along to be singing again Kenya. 02:17 Andrew Ondari And I really appreciate for everything, for taking your time 02:21 Andrew Ondari since it is a blessing from God that uh it's not easy but actually uh let me appreciate for everything okay first of all my name is Anne Gondari as Patashona has said and I'm married I've got I've got three kids one daughter and also a little son okay both schooling and I have a wife by the name Dolphine Gondari and 02:49 Andrew Ondari About our journey of faith, we started this all along, sometimes when I was young with my family, as my father was also a church leader. 02:59 Andrew Ondari So we've been working in the church, and it's a great time that now I came into contact with Pastor Sean, who is now came to check on us and also to help us improve on our spiritual journey. 03:17 Andrew Ondari doing other things around in our churches. 03:20 Sean Finnegan Yes. 03:20 Sean Finnegan Yes. 03:21 Andrew Ondari Thank you. 03:23 Sean Finnegan So, growing up, you were of what form of Christianity? 03:30 Sean Finnegan You were raised as a Christian. 03:32 Andrew Ondari Yeah, I was raised as a Christian. 03:33 Sean Finnegan Tell us about what it was like for your dad and his journey and what kind of Christian you were. 03:40 Andrew Ondari Wow, thank you. 03:41 Andrew Ondari Okay, my dad is called Joffrey 03:46 Andrew Ondari and actually he used to be a church leader under the Church of Christ, the Church of Christ, Temple North, and that was where I grew up. 03:59 Andrew Ondari And before that, we used to be attending SDA, Seventh-day Adventist Church, as you are young, and at a certain age, we came into Church of Christ through my father, who was also living there. 04:13 Andrew Ondari Let me clarify then. 04:16 Sean Finnegan So Seventh-day Adventist, many people understand what that is. 04:21 Sean Finnegan That is a Christian group that believes in keeping the law of Moses, and keeping the food laws, and keeping the Sabbath, and they are not familiar with the Church of Christ of which you speak, because this Church of Christ, you said Church of Christ Temple. 04:41 Andrew Ondari Temple Notes. 04:41 Sean Finnegan Temple Lots. 04:42 Sean Finnegan Okay. 04:43 Sean Finnegan So, Church of Christ Temple Lot is a Mormon church, right? 04:47 Andrew Ondari Yes. 04:48 Sean Finnegan And so, in that church, what did they teach? 04:52 Andrew Ondari Okay, mostly in Temple Lots, Church of Christ. 04:56 Andrew Ondari They do teach about Jesus Christ. 05:00 Andrew Ondari Okay, they do also read the Bible. 05:03 Andrew Ondari And at the same time, the only thing there is that we also learn a lot from the Book of Mormons. 05:11 Andrew Ondari which have got some chapters there explaining maybe those who wrote that book were inspired through the Holy Spirit and they came to write more what the Bible was not having so they believe that the Book of Mormon explains more what we are missing in the Bible so they are using it as an extra book they can read also that one as a Bible in the church. 05:39 Sean Finnegan Okay so when you were growing up you were Seventh-day Adventist then you were Church of Christ Temple lot and then you went off to to school yes what did you go to school for what did you study? 05:56 Andrew Ondari Okay after my high school got home for in Kenya I went to college I started teaching as a primary teacher and I did that for 06:09 Andrew Ondari three years from Mombasa College and I came out as a professional teacher teaching Swahili in Kenya. 06:19 Sean Finnegan Now just so people understand Swahili is a very dominant language in Kenya but in Kisi where you live the language is different it's Kisi language. 06:32 Sean Finnegan So 06:33 Sean Finnegan You are teaching people Swahili so that they will have more opportunity for business or why would somebody study Swahili? 06:42 Andrew Ondari Swahili is our national language and Kisi is my tribal language. 06:49 Andrew Ondari As we know that Kenya has got 43 tribes and different language groups so I belong in Kisi tribe. 06:58 Andrew Ondari Okay. 06:58 Andrew Ondari Yes. 06:59 Sean Finnegan Okay. 06:59 Andrew Ondari So I went to school now to learn this Swahili language. 07:03 Andrew Ondari So I'll be teaching schools how to speak Swahili in Kenya because it's a national language. 07:10 Andrew Ondari So it's a subject of its own. 07:12 Andrew Ondari And this, it is under the curriculum of Kenya. 07:16 Andrew Ondari Swahili is compulsory. 07:19 Andrew Ondari Okay. 07:19 Andrew Ondari But English and Swahili, and one says the chemistry, biology, or physics, it is common. 07:27 Andrew Ondari It is compulsory, we are not doing any national exams. 07:32 Sean Finnegan So that's how you learned English, was by going to school? 07:35 Andrew Ondari Yes. 07:36 Andrew Ondari Okay. 07:37 Sean Finnegan And tell us about how you were questioning the Book of Mormon while you were in college. 07:44 Andrew Ondari Oh, thank you. 07:46 Andrew Ondari So this idea came to me when I was still in high school, that we believe, okay, I've been reading the Bible since I was young. 07:56 Andrew Ondari And now when my father came into this religion of the Church of Christ Temple, so he introduced us into that religion where also we had this book called the Book of Mormon. 08:09 Andrew Ondari So my question was that when I was now old enough to understand things that are being done. 08:16 Andrew Ondari So I was asking why are we reading this text to a book called Book of Mormon? 08:20 Andrew Ondari And yet I've been reading the Bible that this Bible is not a book. 08:25 Andrew Ondari which was written by and in part to guide us all of us here in the world so this book called the Book of Mormon who wrote this book and why does why why this book has not been there on when God when when all all these years and the person who came in that book was Joseph Smith 08:47 Andrew Ondari Now, someone was asking, Who is this Joseph Smith? 08:50 Andrew Ondari Such questions came into my mind, and when I was also reading the Bible, there are other things, like now, maybe the names Levi, the books, there are some chapters there, Mosiah, all those. 09:05 Andrew Ondari So I was wondering all that, what was happening there in that book? 09:14 Sean Finnegan And what did you conclude? 09:16 Andrew Ondari So after it took some time, it took me almost the only year, I stopped going to church, the Church of Christ Pemple North, to start figuring out what's paper, what I was supposed to do. 09:31 Andrew Ondari Actually, I stopped. 09:32 Andrew Ondari I stopped going there, and I took my time praying to God, so that I can get inspired, what am I supposed to do? 09:42 Andrew Ondari what religion am I supposed to be going, which church I am supposed to go, what time so that I can get clearly what God wants me to be in my life? 09:55 Sean Finnegan Okay, and what did you decide? 09:59 Andrew Ondari Now I came to decide I have to come and be check-in on other 10:06 Andrew Ondari That's because I have now to make a clear decision of what I am supposed to be doing with my family and also I have got others who are also leaving from my community. 10:21 Andrew Ondari So I was taking what I could do for them which can benefit them from one or the other spiritually. 10:27 Andrew Ondari So I came to learn about Living Work International Ministries which I started going through the teachings there online because I like doing reading and learning what I'm not around. 10:39 Andrew Ondari So it took me some time to learn all that until I came to contact with Pastor Sean. 10:45 Sean Finnegan Do you remember what year it was that you came across the LHIM website? 10:50 Andrew Ondari Yes, I remember very well. 10:52 Andrew Ondari It's now four years back. 10:54 Sean Finnegan Four years back. 10:55 Andrew Ondari Yes. 10:56 Sean Finnegan And do you remember what you were searching for that led you to find that website? 11:02 Andrew Ondari Sure, yes. 11:04 Andrew Ondari Okay, first of all, as I was learning, according to the Bible verses which I read before, I came to understand that 11:16 Andrew Ondari the kingdom of God will come on earth. 11:19 Andrew Ondari Okay. 11:19 Andrew Ondari Yeah, so, and when I went through the... 11:22 Sean Finnegan And how did you learn that? 11:23 Sean Finnegan How did you see that for yourself? 11:25 Andrew Ondari Okay, from the Bible verses at first. 11:28 Andrew Ondari And I came to read that in the Lemo. 11:32 Andrew Ondari I also came to know that. 11:33 Andrew Ondari That's what exactly what they were teaching. 11:35 Andrew Ondari Okay. 11:36 Andrew Ondari Yes. 11:37 Sean Finnegan So, learning that instead of going to heaven, the kingdom of God is coming to the earth is something you learn 11:44 Sean Finnegan Just from reading the Bible. 11:46 Andrew Ondari Yeah, first I read from the Bible, and when I came to El Lemimoth's teachings, I also found the same, and the same was being taught there. 11:57 Andrew Ondari So it took me my time to read and understand well how this will happen, so that's the information I was looking for. 12:04 Andrew Ondari And not only that, and also we had this issue of maybe the health. 12:12 Sean Finnegan Yes. 12:13 Sean Finnegan Please explain. 12:14 Andrew Ondari Yes. 12:15 Andrew Ondari We get that in Church of Christ, we are being taught that we love everlasting fire, which will be there for the rest of the life of those ones who are sinners. 12:27 Andrew Ondari Now, when I went to read in the book of Revelation, which was mentioned that this is for a punishment of those ones who are sinned, that we won't be able to have this everlasting fire. 12:38 Andrew Ondari So when I also came to Livinghof, I also found that this water, November was telling us, so I came to, Oh, this water I was looking for. 12:46 Andrew Ondari So it makes me to get in deep and learn more from Livinghof. 12:51 Sean Finnegan So you came to see that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire instead of being tortured day after day. 13:00 Andrew Ondari Yes. 13:02 Sean Finnegan And what else did you learn? 13:04 Andrew Ondari Also learned about we have also this matter that on the other side I said in the Bible that God is the Father and we have Jesus Christ His Son and also have the Holy Spirit which is us meaning that these are not they are not one so that everybody has got a responsibility and the powers which dominates or does 13:33 Andrew Ondari over this universe. 13:34 Andrew Ondari So like now that's what I read from the Bible. 13:37 Andrew Ondari So when I came to learn it from Lemon, I came back with the same teachings which also mentioned that we don't have maybe God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as one. 13:50 Sean Finnegan They are separate. 13:51 Andrew Ondari Yeah, separate. 13:52 Sean Finnegan And the Father is the only true God and Jesus Christ is His human Messiah, the Son of God the Messiah. 14:03 Sean Finnegan When you learn these truths, did you tell anyone else? 14:07 Andrew Ondari Yes. 14:08 Sean Finnegan Who did you tell? 14:09 Andrew Ondari Thank you. 14:10 Andrew Ondari So each and every step I was making, like now having to know that the kingdom of God will come here on earth, this water took me some time to understand it well. 14:23 Andrew Ondari And I've also... 14:24 Andrew Ondari So this thing, I'm not the only person with all this because I left behind others who also being taught wrongly that all of us will go to heaven, going to stay there in heaven. 14:36 Andrew Ondari So I came to meet my... 14:38 Andrew Ondari There's also those who I used to work with when I was in the church of Christ temple. 14:43 Andrew Ondari So I came to tell them the same information and at the same time also had some friends from high school and the same colleges whom also they believe that 14:52 Andrew Ondari Heaven will come on earth. 14:57 Andrew Ondari Have you read these Bible verses and all these things that we want to be heaven in Lotka that we are going to be heaven will be on earth instead of us going to heaven? 15:07 Andrew Ondari Because the Bible tells us that no one will go to heaven except the one who came to life for our sins, who is Jesus Christ. 15:20 Andrew Ondari So I came also to tell also those friends of mine, and also those who used to attend the church from other, from the one side I stopped going there. 15:30 Andrew Ondari So that's the people I met. 15:31 Andrew Ondari Okay. 15:32 Sean Finnegan And how did you become a pastor? 15:36 Andrew Ondari Okay, I was... 15:38 Andrew Ondari Okay, this thing, because of leading a church, it was a call since I was young. 15:48 Andrew Ondari And at the same time, since my family also was a Christian family, we grew up knowing that God is our Father, and also Jesus was his son. 15:58 Andrew Ondari So I came to learn all these principles and I was being inspired. 16:05 Andrew Ondari Even at school where I was attending, I used to be leading Christian clubs. 16:14 Andrew Ondari In high school we got different clubs for the Christians. 16:18 Andrew Ondari that I was chosen as a leader there to leave them for my entire four years when I was in high school and also when I was also in primary school. 16:27 Andrew Ondari So I get this feeling that it was inside me. 16:31 Andrew Ondari It was something which was inside me and once those ones, the prayers and also those ones who I was engaged in teaching and learning with them, I came to 16:44 Andrew Ondari to be teaching and also talking to them about the Bible. 16:49 Andrew Ondari So I came to say, okay, I can do this. 16:51 Andrew Ondari I can also teach and also pray for them and other things. 16:56 Andrew Ondari So especially when I also believe in God because I remember most of the time life was also easy on my side and on our family. 17:06 Andrew Ondari But when I took time before God pray healthily and faithfully, actually I used to see God doing things 17:14 Andrew Ondari in a different way and in a good way in my life and also in our family life. 17:22 Andrew Ondari So now the leaders, okay, those church leaders whom I met, they are the ones who came up with the... 17:32 Andrew Ondari we prayed together and they said that, Oh, and we work on this calling that you need to lead. 17:39 Andrew Ondari So that's how I came into... 17:43 Sean Finnegan What year was that? 17:45 Andrew Ondari This year, it was four years back, I remember. 17:50 Andrew Ondari That's when the fellow handed me to the leaders and also... 17:53 Andrew Ondari 2022? 17:54 Andrew Ondari Yes, 2022, as from 2021, when I was still teaching one of the schools here in Kizi. 18:02 Andrew Ondari Okay. 18:03 Sean Finnegan And as you began teaching the Bible, you 18:11 Sean Finnegan you were gathering with people, where were you meeting? 18:14 Sean Finnegan Were you meeting in your home or a rented facility or where were you meeting? 18:20 Andrew Ondari Okay, it was depending because other times you can meet in a social place. 18:29 Andrew Ondari Whenever I feel that's not in the right time, I need to teach this thing what I'm aware. 18:35 Andrew Ondari Okay, mostly now, we used to organize our meeting at my home. 18:38 Andrew Ondari Okay. 18:39 Andrew Ondari That's why we used to organize the meeting there during the weekend, other times over the weekdays when we were free. 18:46 Andrew Ondari And also, other times, I remember sometimes back we used to rent a certain room. 18:53 Andrew Ondari We are more than maybe 20. 18:54 Andrew Ondari We meet there. 18:56 Andrew Ondari We teach. 18:57 Andrew Ondari I teach them what I know from the Bible. 19:01 Sean Finnegan Very good. 19:02 Sean Finnegan And over time, you 19:05 Sean Finnegan wanted to build a church. 19:06 Sean Finnegan Yes, tell us about that. 19:08 Andrew Ondari Thank you. 19:09 Andrew Ondari So it is now three years since now I was now becoming a pastor. 19:17 Andrew Ondari Now we had a church which was not well maybe actually it was not a good condition maybe to meet. 19:27 Andrew Ondari So I had to engage some of my friends whom they were able to contribute some 19:34 Andrew Ondari small amount the ones we've been engaging with so we at first we took a we put a small piece of land uh it was 50 by 100 feet 50 50 feet 50 feet by 100 feet yes okay where we constructed that uh that uh that uh church although it was small now after some time we noticed that the members there were there were many 20:01 Andrew Ondari and also there are certain activities in the church which we are supposed to be doing. 20:06 Andrew Ondari So that's when also we came with an idea to contribute some few funds. 20:11 Andrew Ondari We managed to get a certain piece of land somewhere there available to the same church where we started now doing the permanent construction where at the moment now we are still remaining with doing roofing, putting the windows and all some few things there. 20:31 Sean Finnegan So are you saying that that building is still under construction? 20:35 Andrew Ondari Yes. 20:36 Sean Finnegan And it has walls. 20:38 Andrew Ondari Yes, it has walls. 20:38 Sean Finnegan Does it have a roof or no? 20:40 Andrew Ondari It does not have a roof. 20:42 Sean Finnegan So it has the walls but you need to build the roof and put the windows in. 20:48 Sean Finnegan And this is a permanent structure or a semi-permanent structure? 20:52 Andrew Ondari Oh, it is a permanent structure. 20:53 Sean Finnegan Permanent structure. 20:54 Sean Finnegan Now in Kenya there is a rainy season and when it's the rainy season it's 21:01 Sean Finnegan very hard on the buildings. 21:04 Sean Finnegan And so that's very important that your church building will be able to withstand the reins and to protect the people. 21:12 Andrew Ondari Yes. 21:12 Sean Finnegan Is that true? 21:13 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 21:14 Andrew Ondari Okay. 21:15 Sean Finnegan Very good. 21:15 Sean Finnegan And what is the number of people who are meeting at the Omurangamu Church now? 21:23 Andrew Ondari Currently, we have 74 members. 21:27 Sean Finnegan 74 members. 21:28 Sean Finnegan Okay. 21:28 Sean Finnegan And how many children? 21:30 Andrew Ondari Children, we have 40, there are 43, 43 children. 21:36 Andrew Ondari 43 children. 21:37 Andrew Ondari Yeah, of different size. 21:39 Andrew Ondari I mean, different age. 21:41 Andrew Ondari Those ones who are, I think, 14 ones, also those ones who are young. 21:46 Andrew Ondari So different ages. 21:47 Andrew Ondari Okay. 21:48 Sean Finnegan So would we add those two numbers together or are the 43 part of the 70? 21:55 Andrew Ondari Of 43, they are part of 74. 21:57 Sean Finnegan Okay, so 74 total. 21:59 Andrew Ondari Yes. 21:59 Sean Finnegan And of the 74, 43 are children. 22:02 Andrew Ondari Yes. 22:03 Sean Finnegan So you have many children? 22:05 Andrew Ondari Yeah, I've got 43 children total. 22:08 Andrew Ondari And adults, they are 30, 30, 32. 22:14 Andrew Ondari Okay. 22:15 Andrew Ondari Yeah, making the number to be 75. 22:20 Sean Finnegan Very good. 22:21 Sean Finnegan Tell us about your vision for the future. 22:23 Sean Finnegan What would you like to see happen in your ministry as time goes forward? 22:28 Andrew Ondari Okay, I have this dream since I started doing all this. 22:36 Andrew Ondari Since now the church is growing and we've got this young generation in our church and also the community where I am 22:45 Andrew Ondari We need to see this start growing. 22:47 Andrew Ondari So we had to have this. 22:49 Andrew Ondari That's when we got this piece of land, the other one, which is 200 by 100 square feet. 23:00 Andrew Ondari We had to construct that structure and have a Bible colloid inside that compound. 23:09 Andrew Ondari That's our dream. 23:12 Sean Finnegan What will the Bible College do? 23:15 Sean Finnegan What is the goal? 23:16 Andrew Ondari Okay, the goal is to teach the generation in our community what the Bible leads them to do most. 23:24 Andrew Ondari And at the same time, we've got also youth in our church whom we want them to grow, knowing how the Bible leads them to grow to come and take over from us as time goes by. 23:36 Andrew Ondari Because we wanted this church of ours to be there for the coming days. 23:44 Sean Finnegan Okay we were just talking about the idea of going to Bible college and our battery died and our van was repaired sure so we had to go and visit a church okay and now it's a couple of days later we're at the Masai Preserve more in Masai yeah where we have been on Safari today sure and so we're in a tent uh 24:11 Sean Finnegan you can see it's a little different setting than before yes and we are continuing our conversation yeah please tell us about your idea about the Bible College and like what college is in your country? 24:28 Andrew Ondari Oh thank you so much okay okay I had an idea or even before sometimes back when we started our church I had a feeling that and a call 24:42 Andrew Ondari which I believe was the Holy Spirit talking through me. 24:46 Andrew Ondari It was all about that I was feeling that we need to have a Bible college in my place so that we can get our youth to get trained there because in our community we don't have a student training in Bible college. 25:04 Andrew Ondari And now especially that we've got enough materials from Living Hope, I hope that one will help us a lot to establish a college 25:11 Andrew Ondari which will enable our youth in the church, since there are many, and we need our church to be there in the future, not something that it is there for a short period of time. 25:26 Andrew Ondari So I think this Bible College will be training our youths and also the youth from the community and another person will be able and will feel that there's need for him 25:39 Andrew Ondari to learn more about the Bible and also to know more about God. 25:44 Sean Finnegan All right very good so uh let's shift gears and let's talk about how the visit has gone and what we have done on this visit. 25:56 Andrew Ondari Wow thank you so much first of all we really appreciate so much Pastor Sean for your coming 26:03 Andrew Ondari And it was really encouraging, especially to our church, and not only our church, but also to the whole community. 26:12 Andrew Ondari You remember in the first time we went to Nyakach, you noticed that there was no church there, and also you understand that people, they waited for us until late evening. 26:25 Andrew Ondari We were there, I think 6 p.m., and we found people that were waiting us there. 26:30 Andrew Ondari Meaning that this information reached them before and they were eagerly waiting and see how we are going to, what kind of message are we going to give them. 26:43 Andrew Ondari Okay, all they had that expectations. 26:46 Andrew Ondari And after that, we also went to Machoro, we also noticed the same thing and 26:53 Andrew Ondari the way we were welcomed and at the same time the way we carried our activities during the day all over. 27:00 Andrew Ondari So to be precise, we were really blessed for you to be here, especially not only in our churches but also to the entire community. 27:11 Andrew Ondari You notice even in our church, we had some other members who were not coming to our church, they visited us, they came and they were really happy 27:23 Andrew Ondari when they see you and when they heard that you are coming so actually it was a blessing for us and it showed love and commitment you did and at the same time the sacrifice you've been making and also before that even the books you printed before you came all those ones encouraged us a lot especially the leaders and also to the churches we visited 27:53 Andrew Ondari Yes. 27:55 Sean Finnegan You said that the Nyakach Church did not have a church building. 27:59 Sean Finnegan I remember we did go into a building. 28:02 Sean Finnegan Was that a church building or was it a house? 28:05 Andrew Ondari Yeah, that was a church building. 28:08 Andrew Ondari What I meant that the nearby Nyakach, there was no any church except that one. 28:14 Sean Finnegan Oh, okay. 28:15 Andrew Ondari Yes. 28:17 Sean Finnegan So we visited the Nyakach Church, Maturwa, and. 28:24 Andrew Ondari Omorangamu, and we also we went. 28:27 Andrew Ondari to... 28:29 Andrew Ondari to... 28:30 Andrew Ondari to... 28:31 Andrew Ondari Ronyo. 28:31 Sean Finnegan Okay, no, yes. 28:32 Sean Finnegan Natkach, Maturwa, Naronyo, and Omeringamu. 28:38 Sean Finnegan So four different churches. 28:40 Sean Finnegan Exactly. 28:41 Sean Finnegan And your church is the Omeringamu church. 28:43 Andrew Ondari Yeah, it's Omeringamu church. 28:44 Sean Finnegan And that is the biggest of the churches. 28:47 Andrew Ondari Yeah, that's the biggest of the churches. 28:49 Sean Finnegan And it is a church building that used to be 50 feet by 100 feet. 28:56 Andrew Ondari Yes. 28:56 Sean Finnegan But you have outgrown that. 28:58 Andrew Ondari Exactly. 28:59 Sean Finnegan And so you have now begun construction on 100 feet by 200 feet size building. 29:07 Sean Finnegan You have the walls completed. 29:09 Sean Finnegan Brick and mortar. 29:11 Andrew Ondari Yes. 29:11 Sean Finnegan And you do not have the roof. 29:14 Andrew Ondari Yeah, we don't have the roof and the windows and the doors. 29:19 Sean Finnegan Okay. 29:19 Andrew Ondari Yes. 29:20 Sean Finnegan And instead you have rented a large tent 29:24 Sean Finnegan to go inside the walls to serve as a temporary roof. 29:27 Andrew Ondari Exactly. 29:29 Sean Finnegan Very good. 29:29 Sean Finnegan And... 29:33 Sean Finnegan What else should we say about our... 29:35 Sean Finnegan Oh, the other thing we should mention is that before we came out this way to Kisi, we started in Nairobi. 29:44 Sean Finnegan And when we were in Nairobi, we went to the United Bible Society and we purchased many Bibles. 29:51 Sean Finnegan And these Bibles were in different languages. 29:54 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 29:54 Sean Finnegan Tell them about the different languages. 29:56 Andrew Ondari Oh, thank you so much. 29:58 Andrew Ondari Okay, first of all, in each and every step we move, we do appreciate so much because it is a blessing to us. 30:08 Andrew Ondari When we went to... 30:09 Andrew Ondari at the first stage we were in Nairobi, we purchased the Bibles of different language groups here in Kenya, meaning that these language groups we had to purchase the Kisi Bibles 30:21 Andrew Ondari we had to purchase the Maasai Bibles, we had also purchased the Kalendan language, we also purchased Luo, we also purchased Swahili, and also purchased the English one. 30:38 Sean Finnegan Six languages. 30:39 Andrew Ondari Yeah, six languages. 30:41 Andrew Ondari That's incredible. 30:42 Andrew Ondari Yes. 30:43 Andrew Ondari And also remember, we purchased also the Luya languages. 30:47 Andrew Ondari Seven languages. 30:48 Andrew Ondari Yes, yeah. 30:50 Sean Finnegan So, as we have gone from church to church, these four different churches, we bring the Bibles with us, and you select out of those Bibles how many to give to that pastor, and the pastor will decide who receives the Bible. 31:06 Sean Finnegan And we did this each time, and the people were always very happy to receive the Bibles, because it is 31:21 Sean Finnegan it is rare yeah it's hard to acquire it's expensive sure yeah. 31:27 Andrew Ondari Like no the Bibles we purchased actually they went to those churches and as you witnessed Pastor Sean there were not enough yes and everybody in the church wanted oh please can I get one but we are just giving the specific because we believe that in each and every family when they get one Bible per family 31:48 Andrew Ondari it can it can it can serve the whole family meaning that now if you got maybe eight families in that church mean that we need eight eight Bibles but now they were in in most churches where we we where we visited there were more than there were there were many even some Bibles they were not enough so and this is something which has been which has been a big problem in our churches because uh getting these Bibles 32:16 Andrew Ondari At that amount, it is very difficult for them, because most of our church members, they are not employed. 32:22 Andrew Ondari They depend on the little they are earning, and maybe for food, and maybe the family issues. 32:29 Andrew Ondari So it is... 32:32 Sean Finnegan Something else we saw at, I think, pretty much all of the churches was orphans. 32:40 Andrew Ondari Yes, yeah. 32:41 Sean Finnegan A lot of times the parents will die and then the children will come to the church to look for help. 32:49 Sean Finnegan So that's another component. 32:51 Sean Finnegan The individuals we visited, or the communities we visited, we usually would have lunch or dinner with the pastor in his house. 33:02 Sean Finnegan And in the pastor's house, we saw that they did not have electricity. 33:10 Sean Finnegan Some would have a solar panel, and they would have to pay a monthly fee to rent the equipment that would power one light. 33:20 Sean Finnegan And then every one of these villages had latrines that were dug with a cement floor. 33:29 Sean Finnegan But then they also had cell phones. 33:35 Sean Finnegan So everyone has a smartphone, but 33:39 Sean Finnegan not necessarily electricity or running water. 33:42 Andrew Ondari Yeah, okay, to clarify more about that, Pastor Sean. 33:45 Sean Finnegan Yes, please. 33:47 Andrew Ondari In most of the villages we visited, when you notice the pit latrines they were using, you can get one permanent pit latrine and cement it on a floor, but the majority of them, actually, the floor, they are just using the logs and the half-cuts, 34:07 Andrew Ondari which is not good for use. 34:13 Andrew Ondari Other times it is delicate for the young kids to use such pit latrines. 34:17 Andrew Ondari But since they lack funds to hold that, that's what they can use at the moment. 34:24 Sean Finnegan Okay, so you're saying that I was mistaken. 34:27 Sean Finnegan They didn't have concrete floors in all of them. 34:30 Andrew Ondari Yes. 34:31 Sean Finnegan Although I did see that a lot. 34:33 Sean Finnegan Maybe I'm thinking of other places, not the villages. 34:36 Andrew Ondari Yes. 34:36 Sean Finnegan Yes. 34:37 Sean Finnegan In the villages it was more just wood. 34:40 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 34:41 Andrew Ondari Half carts, wood. 34:43 Andrew Ondari That is it. 34:45 Andrew Ondari And the one you saw at Nyakart church, that big latrine, it is where the church members tried. 34:52 Andrew Ondari Okay, before, I've got some photos of that before they used to use. 34:57 Andrew Ondari So to say, no, this is going to be dangerous for the kids. 35:00 Andrew Ondari They can get, they can get, they can die inside those because the pit lattices, they were just open. 35:06 Andrew Ondari You can see the all those pieces down there, which is not safe health wise. 35:13 Andrew Ondari So no, no, we have to contribute. 35:15 Andrew Ondari We've got this local material like now the sand in your catch. 35:18 Andrew Ondari We've got also this, this we call the ballast. 35:22 Andrew Ondari It is available. 35:23 Andrew Ondari So what we bought was just the iron rods and the cement. 35:28 Andrew Ondari to put that floor to cemented floor. 35:32 Andrew Ondari And another thing about the orphans, most of the orphans in our churches, they believe that when they come to church, that's when they can get shelter. 35:45 Andrew Ondari Because once their parents are not alive like nowadays, once you witness Nyakacha and other church as we went, even if you look by their physical look, you know that their background 35:58 Andrew Ondari was not good at all. 35:59 Andrew Ondari So they had to run for the church for help or maybe the pastor to help them maybe when there's something in the church to eat or maybe they can share with them what they have with their children. 36:13 Andrew Ondari So issues of orphans, it's very common in our churches and we pray that... 36:18 Sean Finnegan And the widows too. 36:20 Andrew Ondari And the widows too, yes. 36:22 Andrew Ondari God to open doors and also we pray for them so that they can 36:26 Andrew Ondari get at least something to put in their stomachs and for a daily living life. 36:31 Sean Finnegan And of course when we were visiting a lot of times there was food provided. 36:36 Sean Finnegan Is that typical after Sunday services that there will be a lunch? 36:41 Andrew Ondari Yes. 36:42 Sean Finnegan That's typical. 36:43 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 36:44 Andrew Ondari Okay, it is typical. 36:45 Andrew Ondari Normal. 36:46 Andrew Ondari It is not normal. 36:48 Sean Finnegan No, okay. 36:49 Andrew Ondari It depends with maybe what is the... 36:52 Andrew Ondari by that time the budget we have. 36:54 Sean Finnegan Yes. 36:55 Andrew Ondari Yeah, when you don't have enough, we just leave it that way. 36:59 Andrew Ondari Okay. 37:00 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 37:00 Sean Finnegan I see. 37:01 Andrew Ondari Yes. 37:02 Sean Finnegan All right. 37:05 Sean Finnegan What else should we talk about? 37:08 Andrew Ondari Okay, at the same time we can talk about the issue of our churches. 37:13 Sean Finnegan Yes. 37:15 Andrew Ondari Especially, we've got, okay, we also, before we go to the churches, we also noticed we met this guy called Wesley Langat at Momet, and also we met this Mercy, that short girl, woman there. 37:32 Andrew Ondari We've got very talented people in our churches, the disabled one. 37:37 Sean Finnegan Yes. 37:39 Andrew Ondari The lifestyle they are leading is very poor because the Kenyan government most of the time maybe I can call maybe some leaders they are not considering them in a way so you get maybe there is maybe any help coming for them it is not reaching them because of some issues happening here between so 38:00 Andrew Ondari they suffer a lot. 38:01 Andrew Ondari So such people also come in church believing that once they're in our church they'll get shelter, they'll be considered and maybe they'll be helping one or the other. 38:16 Andrew Ondari Those are the kinds of people we usually also meet in our church. 38:21 Andrew Ondari And when we talk about our churches, it's only that we've never got enough time to visit all of them. 38:27 Sean Finnegan How many are there? 38:28 Andrew Ondari Okay, we've got six churches out there. 38:31 Andrew Ondari We visited just three of them. 38:34 Sean Finnegan Three, yeah. 38:34 Sean Finnegan Plus yours, that's four. 38:36 Andrew Ondari Yeah, plus mine was four. 38:38 Andrew Ondari The other church also, like an example, you can talk of Nyakad's church. 38:43 Andrew Ondari You saw the roofing. 38:45 Andrew Ondari The kind of the church was really, really not in condition. 38:51 Andrew Ondari The roofing, you saw that one, and also the walls, even the floor. 38:58 Andrew Ondari Even the doors, other churches they don't have. 39:01 Andrew Ondari Meaning that they can't keep the church items, they can't leave the church items in those buildings. 39:07 Sean Finnegan Because they will get stolen. 39:08 Andrew Ondari They can get stolen. 39:09 Andrew Ondari So they can move them from their homes to the church services, from the church service to their home, they take a lot of time. 39:17 Andrew Ondari That's an example to also other churches. 39:19 Andrew Ondari Maybe out of six you can get three, they are in good condition, three they are not. 39:25 Andrew Ondari So we also 39:26 Andrew Ondari We also have that problem of maybe putting the funds together, maybe you get a piece of land. 39:33 Andrew Ondari Okay, you can get people volunteering to give a piece of land to build a structure, but now getting funds to start and consult that structure is an issue, is a problem. 39:46 Andrew Ondari Because we are starting now to make our churches physical and at the same time to be in good condition. 39:56 Sean Finnegan Yes, travel is an issue as well. 39:59 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 40:00 Sean Finnegan Just to get to these churches, not your church, but the others, we had to get out of the van and push it. 40:08 Sean Finnegan Yeah, sure, yeah. 40:10 Sean Finnegan Because it's just very difficult, steep, dirt roads, and 40:18 Sean Finnegan On a peaky-peaky, on a motorbike, you could get up there a little easier. 40:22 Andrew Ondari Exactly. 40:23 Sean Finnegan But we were in a van. 40:26 Sean Finnegan I don't know how many passengers, let's see, eight passenger van. 40:35 Sean Finnegan The other problem that you run into is the condition of the paved roads has a lot of holes in them, potholes. 40:48 Sean Finnegan These are not just like little potholes. 40:49 Sean Finnegan We're talking about holes that could destroy your vehicle if you didn't go around it. 40:56 Sean Finnegan So getting anything done takes a lot of effort and time. 41:02 Sean Finnegan You don't just go off to the store and pick something up and bring it home. 41:07 Sean Finnegan You have to plan it out and then is there going to be anyone at the store? 41:13 Sean Finnegan Are they going to have what you want? 41:15 Sean Finnegan Or do you need to wait a day for them to get it? 41:20 Sean Finnegan These are all questions that we don't really think about in the United States. 41:26 Andrew Ondari Yeah, in Kenya, actually, receiving some of the churches, as you mentioned, it is a challenge. 41:33 Andrew Ondari It's a challenge, especially to the leader. 41:38 Andrew Ondari Like now, if maybe I may want to go to Nakach, 41:42 Andrew Ondari I have to plan it well. 41:44 Sean Finnegan Yes. 41:45 Andrew Ondari Or I have to go and sleep somewhere where Nakach is. 41:50 Andrew Ondari Then I can reach Nakach maybe such early in the morning and do the service there. 41:55 Andrew Ondari Or maybe do some information to them? 42:01 Sean Finnegan Well what you have though is good communication on the phone. 42:04 Andrew Ondari Yes. 42:05 Sean Finnegan So you can voice call, you can text message. 42:09 Sean Finnegan Exactly. 42:10 Sean Finnegan That is very easy for you guys. 42:12 Sean Finnegan Sure. 42:13 Sean Finnegan But going there physically is very hard. 42:15 Andrew Ondari Yeah, yeah. 42:17 Andrew Ondari Physically is very hard. 42:21 Andrew Ondari It is very hard actually. 42:22 Andrew Ondari You have to be transparent or at the same time, yeah, it is very hard. 42:28 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 42:29 Sean Finnegan That's what we experienced. 42:32 Sean Finnegan So even our vehicle broke twice. 42:37 Sean Finnegan Sure. 42:38 Sean Finnegan the first time in Nairobi this is a rented van that had been checked out before by our driver to make sure it was good the tiny belt blew and we had to have that repaired in a city street in Nairobi and then the battery died we had to get a new battery when we were in Kisi so and this wasn't surprising this is just what happens and you have to fix it and then you can go 43:08 Sean Finnegan You can't even just like call somebody to have them show up with another van and switch out. 43:13 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 43:14 Sean Finnegan You know, you have to solve problems. 43:17 Andrew Ondari Jumpstart. 43:17 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 43:18 Sean Finnegan And we jumpstarted it before too, you know. 43:20 Andrew Ondari Yes, yes. 43:21 Sean Finnegan So, yeah, this is what it takes to spread the good word here in Kenya. 43:29 Sean Finnegan Is there anything else you'd like to add by way of closing? 43:32 Andrew Ondari Yes. 43:36 Andrew Ondari Lastly, what I will say that despite all those challenges and despite all the efforts we've put along, we witnessed the hand of God doing great work there in Kenya. 43:56 Andrew Ondari Like now, I've been receiving some calls since we left home, since we left Kisi, here we are, 44:04 Andrew Ondari Some other church members and also other church leaders, they were asking that if time could allow, you also visit them because of the message you left behind. 44:18 Andrew Ondari Okay, there is an impact you left behind, the positive impact. 44:21 Andrew Ondari That's what I can talk about. 44:23 Andrew Ondari Like now, the kind of love you especially showed 44:29 Andrew Ondari and they kind of handling the church at all. 44:35 Andrew Ondari It was just you are very simple and at the same time but very strategic to put the message across. 44:43 Andrew Ondari Meaning that we still need you guys back here in Kenya and we also need this word to be spread everywhere and 44:52 Andrew Ondari Especially, we need more materials and means of communication which can help this work to go to everybody, to reach every person here in Kenya. 45:04 Andrew Ondari And not only Kenya, also to other parts of the world. 45:10 Sean Finnegan Like Tanzania? 45:11 Andrew Ondari Like Tanzania, we got someone who needs this also to be told. 45:18 Andrew Ondari We have also some, generally in East Africa, we need this word to be taught there and beyond. 45:27 Andrew Ondari Yeah. 45:28 Andrew Ondari Yes. 45:29 Andrew Ondari Okay, very good. 45:31 Sean Finnegan Well, thanks for speaking with me today. 45:33 Sean Finnegan I appreciate your time. 45:34 Andrew Ondari Anytime. 45:35 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 45:36 Andrew Ondari Thank you. 45:37 Andrew Ondari Have a wonderful day. 45:44 Sean Finnegan That brings this interview to a close. 45:46 Sean Finnegan What did you think? 45:47 Sean Finnegan Come on over to restitudio.org and find episode 672, New LHIM Churches in Kenya, and leave your comments, questions, and feedback there. 45:56 Sean Finnegan Speaking of feedback, we got a comment in on episode 648, which was called Comparative Theology and Alternative Doctrines. 46:05 Sean Finnegan It was part of my Restoration Theology class. 46:08 Sean Finnegan Someone named Jonathan wrote, this introductory analogy using the kitchen spatula to illustrate how we evaluate 46:14 Sean Finnegan options is such a clear way to frame the concept of comparative theology. 46:19 Sean Finnegan It takes real intellectual courage to examine alternate views and weigh our own long-held assumptions against them. 46:26 Sean Finnegan But as you pointed out, testing our perspective either refines what we hold to be true or helps us discard ungrounded ideas. 46:35 Sean Finnegan Excellent discussion and actionable methodology for honest biblical inquiry. 46:38 Sean Finnegan Thank you for sharing. 46:41 Sean Finnegan What Jonathan's talking about here is a little story I told about my black kitchen spatula, which I had learned was probably leaching fire retardant chemicals, very poisonous chemicals into our food after listening to some, I can't even remember what podcast it was, but they were saying that many of the black plastic recycled items, especially the concern of kitchen utensils and tools, 47:10 Sean Finnegan were actually made from recycled televisions and other electronics. 47:16 Sean Finnegan And those devices typically do have some sort of fire retardant built into them, which makes sense if you're a stereo or a TV, but not so much if you're a spatula flipping somebody's eggs in contact with heat. 47:29 Sean Finnegan So anyhow, my point with that analogy was that when I learned that information, I got rid of that plastic spatula and I got a different kind of spatula so that I wasn't poisoning myself or my family. 47:40 Sean Finnegan And that was the illustration for comparative theology. 47:43 Sean Finnegan Like when you learn that there's something wrong with your theology, you should go out and look at what the other options are. 47:50 Sean Finnegan So take a look at that if you're interested. 47:52 Sean Finnegan Appreciate you writing in Jonathan. 47:54 Sean Finnegan On episode 670, a couple weeks back called I Almost Became a Jehovah's Witness, then I found Biblical Unitarians with Will Turner. 48:02 Sean Finnegan Someone named Rich wrote in saying, hi Sean, I've been listening for about 3 years now and have wanted to comment a number of times but never have, so today is finally the day. 48:12 Sean Finnegan I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. 48:14 Sean Finnegan I have my own long complicated story with that, but I'm of course very familiar with that world. 48:20 Sean Finnegan I have had a lot of thoughts on your opinions when JWs and the Watchtower come up on your podcast. 48:26 Sean Finnegan So this episode was finally my push to comment. 48:30 Sean Finnegan He goes on from there and talks about the blood issue, which is something that Will mentioned in the episode. 48:37 Sean Finnegan He writes that the change that Will mentioned that took place in March was not a change allowing for witnesses to accept blood. 48:45 Sean Finnegan Actually, it just so happens that the March update was just followed by an additional update 2 weeks ago. 48:51 Sean Finnegan In March, the governing body did say witnesses could store their blood for future use. 48:57 Sean Finnegan But that was really it. 48:59 Sean Finnegan Will thought they were allowed to accept donated blood. 49:02 Sean Finnegan That is not correct. 49:03 Sean Finnegan It was notable, but really not that helpful. 49:06 Sean Finnegan Myself and many others would say it was too little, too late. 49:09 Sean Finnegan So what Rich is talking about here is the Jehovah's Witnesses teaching that you cannot receive any kind of blood transfusion. 49:19 Sean Finnegan And some JWs had requested of their governing body. 49:24 Sean Finnegan I don't know why they call it the governing body, instead of just like the denominational leaders or whatever. 49:31 Sean Finnegan But whatever. 49:32 Sean Finnegan They asked of the Watchtower, is it allowed for us to store our own blood? 49:36 Sean Finnegan Is it okay to have our own blood? 49:38 Sean Finnegan Which is kind of a non-standard practice in the United States at least. 49:42 Sean Finnegan I've never heard of it. 49:43 Sean Finnegan Maybe it's something that's going on that I don't know about. 49:46 Sean Finnegan But the answer came back no. 49:49 Sean Finnegan And I guess last March they reversed that and claimed that it was new light and that they didn't really apologize for people who 49:58 Sean Finnegan have been harmed by this policy. 50:00 Sean Finnegan They just kind of soldiers right on. 50:02 Sean Finnegan And Rich has much, much more to say about this. 50:04 Sean Finnegan You can go to restitudio.org and find episode 670, I almost became a Jehovah's Witness with Will Turner, and you can read his entire comment there. 50:13 Sean Finnegan I just did want to read out one part that's corrective to me. 50:18 Sean Finnegan Commenting on what I had said, I was kind of rejoicing that Will was saying that they had overturned this. 50:24 Sean Finnegan which Rich is saying they didn't quite overturn. 50:26 Sean Finnegan They just kind of are allowing as of March, your own blood. 50:30 Sean Finnegan And then as of September, bits of blood of others, like parts of the blood, I guess, not the whole thing. 50:38 Sean Finnegan But anyhow, Rich goes on to say, one thing you said, Sean, was it sounded like the governing body was wanting to admit they were wrong, but still maintain control. 50:46 Sean Finnegan The correction there for me is that they have not admitted to being wrong at all, not even hinted at it. 50:52 Sean Finnegan and there has been no acknowledgement of the fact that many people died because of this wrong point of view, or that it has been normal to cheer on your family members and friends for refusing blood and potentially dying because this is a commandment from God. 51:06 Sean Finnegan The idea always pushed was if you die for this, you're giving a good witness to everyone and most important, being obedient to God's commands. 51:16 Sean Finnegan I have seen this in my own family and a few times in my life, and it's a very disturbing point of view. 51:23 Sean Finnegan So this is really where the rubber hits the road. 51:26 Sean Finnegan Look, if your policy, if your interpretation of scripture is resulting in people dying, you really need to be 100% accurate. 51:34 Sean Finnegan And coming back later and saying, oh, well, actually, no, What do you mean, well, actually? 51:42 Sean Finnegan Look, people died. 51:43 Sean Finnegan I mean, this needs to be a huge statement. 51:45 Sean Finnegan It needs to be the Watchtower saying we were wrong, not that there's just some sort of like update or we were never really that strict. 51:54 Sean Finnegan No, you were strict, people died, and now you're changing your policy, which I think does undermine the organization's authority. 52:02 Sean Finnegan Anyhow, if you want to read more about the gaslighting and manipulation and control that Rich has first-hand experience of, check out the rest of his comment. 52:13 Sean Finnegan On last week's episode, 671, I lost 1000 subscribers when I quit teaching the deity of Christ, then God showed up with Kanisha. 52:23 Sean Finnegan That YouTube video has garnered an amazing 100 comments in the last seven days. 52:29 Sean Finnegan That's pretty amazing. 52:30 Sean Finnegan I'm not going to read out all of them to you. 52:32 Sean Finnegan If you want to read all the nice and mean things, and it's a good mix of both, go ahead and take a look at the Rest Studio YouTube channel and jump in there. 52:44 Sean Finnegan There are actually, I think, what, three videos total. 52:47 Sean Finnegan So, there's more than 100 comments actually. 52:51 Sean Finnegan But I'll just read out a couple here. 52:53 Sean Finnegan D Little John said, awesome interview and testimony. 52:57 Sean Finnegan Thank you. 52:58 Sean Finnegan Vaughn of New Zealand, someone that I know in real life said, hey, Kanisha, thank you so much for sharing your story. 53:07 Sean Finnegan So encouraging for me. 53:09 Sean Finnegan Thank you again for another interview. 53:11 Sean Finnegan Thank you both for the faithful work you're doing, reaching people, using the gifts God has given you. 53:16 Sean Finnegan Blessings from Vaughn of New Zealand. 53:19 Sean Finnegan The disciple John says, thanks for sharing your testimony, sister. 53:24 Sean Finnegan You are a blessing to those like myself who have come to know the truth. 53:26 Sean Finnegan Blessings. 53:28 Sean Finnegan Housing Insight said, well said, if Jesus must be God, the Most High in order to receive salvation, then actually following Jesus for salvation becomes void. 53:38 Sean Finnegan Margaret says, great interview, thank you. 53:42 Sean Finnegan 28 Heisenberger says, thank you so much for sharing your testimony. 53:45 Sean Finnegan Praise Yahweh and his son Jesus, our king and high priest. 53:47 Sean Finnegan May you and your families be blessed. 53:50 Sean Finnegan Common Sense Christianity, excellent video, you too. 53:53 Sean Finnegan Great job, sis. 53:54 Sean Finnegan God bless. 53:56 Sean Finnegan Economic Ian writes in, Nestorian Muslim here. 53:59 Sean Finnegan Kanisha is an awesome person. 54:01 Sean Finnegan I remember when she set up the debate between a Unitarian, Trinitarian, and Modalist, where they had an actual productive conversation. 54:10 Sean Finnegan Mickey Marie said, while my life mirrors hers, I grew up in a Mormon family. 54:14 Sean Finnegan My mom was a witch. 54:16 Sean Finnegan I suffered severe physical and emotional abuse and was completely ignorant of Christianity before God opened my eyes. 54:23 Sean Finnegan I had to go through all the different denominations and different beliefs such as futurism while I was unlearning everything I had been taught about the world. 54:31 Sean Finnegan I thank God that while I was researching conspiracy, God saved me because conspiracy leads many into gnosticism. 54:40 Sean Finnegan Finally, I heard about the Trinity and I was shocked Christians believed it, so I researched it. 54:46 Sean Finnegan That was one of the best things that has ever happened to me. 54:48 Sean Finnegan I went back to the person who was teaching the Trinity and told him what I had learned. 54:52 Sean Finnegan He said I wasn't a Christian if I rejected the Trinity. 54:55 Sean Finnegan That just made me determined to find out all I could about it and really test it. 54:59 Sean Finnegan What it did for me was remove these really cloudy glasses through which I was trying to see and know God and Jesus. 55:06 Sean Finnegan The Trinity doctrine is there even when they're not specifically teaching it. 55:11 Sean Finnegan I had been learning it without knowing. 55:14 Sean Finnegan Oh, and this all happened while I was bedbound for several years with a disease that destroys my nerves. 55:19 Sean Finnegan I was taken out of the world, extremely isolated, where God could work on me. 55:24 Sean Finnegan All my old worldly values, desires, and attitude replaced with the sole desire to know the one true God and His Son Jesus. 55:31 Sean Finnegan When I would try to share the gospel with my mom and expose witchcraft, she would react with rage. 55:36 Sean Finnegan This year my mom gave up her witchcraft, read the Bible, and also believes in the one true God. 55:42 Sean Finnegan Miracles do still happen. 55:45 Sean Finnegan And on and on. 55:46 Sean Finnegan We got lots and lots more comments. 55:48 Sean Finnegan Too many to read out. 55:50 Sean Finnegan I'll just read out Jason's. 55:51 Sean Finnegan He says, denying the deity of Christ makes you a heretic. 55:54 Sean Finnegan Repent. 55:55 Sean Finnegan Hey, Jason, that's not a super helpful comment. 55:58 Sean Finnegan That's just your opinion, man. 56:00 Sean Finnegan Why not give us some reasoning behind that opinion? 56:04 Sean Finnegan Heretic is a word defined by the majority. 56:07 Sean Finnegan unless you are a Roman Catholic, you're in a minority and they would say you're a heretic too. 56:12 Sean Finnegan So I don't think it's really helpful to drop H-bombs in defense of anything. 56:18 Sean Finnegan It's just a matter of where you are coming from, what defines orthodoxy and heresy. 56:24 Sean Finnegan All right, well that's gonna be it for this week. 56:27 Sean Finnegan All right, that's gonna be it for this week. 56:29 Sean Finnegan I'll catch you next week. 56:30 Sean Finnegan If you'd like to support Restitudio, you can do that at our website, restitudio.org. 56:35 Sean Finnegan There's also a lot of articles and classes and other materials on there for free if you would like to check out the website. 56:43 Sean Finnegan I'll catch you next time. 56:44 Sean Finnegan And remember, the truth has nothing to fear.