This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 664: Engineer Risks Everything to Find the One God This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Audio file 664 Alex Ticer Journey 1b.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan and you are listening to Restitudio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan Alex Teicer had it all. 00:13 Sean Finnegan A degree from UCLA, a job as a software engineer, financial security, a beautiful family, a house in Texas, but something was terribly wrong. 00:26 Sean Finnegan It was something he couldn't fix with money or intelligence or grit. 00:31 Sean Finnegan He had a genetic disease that would cause him to waste away no matter what he did. 00:37 Sean Finnegan He cried out to God and something miraculous happened. 00:41 Sean Finnegan He saw a bright light and got a new lease on life. 00:45 Sean Finnegan What he did next, however, will blow your mind. 00:48 Sean Finnegan He quit his job and began reading the Bible, especially the gospels, intensely. 00:53 Sean Finnegan What he found there changed his life again. 00:57 Sean Finnegan Here now is episode 664. 00:59 Sean Finnegan Engineer risked everything to find the one God. 01:10 Alex Ticer Welcome to Restitudio, Alex. 01:11 Alex Ticer So glad to have you on the show today. 01:13 Speaker 3 Thanks, Sean. 01:14 Speaker 3 It's great to be on with you. 01:16 Alex Ticer Let's start in the beginning. 01:17 Alex Ticer In the beginning, God created the film. 01:21 Alex Ticer In the beginning of your journey, just so that people can get a sense of 01:25 Alex Ticer your story and where you've been and your journey of faith. 01:28 Alex Ticer What was it like growing up as Alex Ticer? 01:30 Alex Ticer Were you raised in a Christian home and what were your formative years like? 01:35 Speaker 3 Yeah, I had two loving parents, grew up as an only child. 01:38 Speaker 3 My father was an SDA, Seventh-day Adventist, but my mother was an unbeliever. 01:43 Speaker 3 So that was always kind of a weird thing where my dad and I would go to church on Saturday, but my mom would stay home. 01:50 Speaker 3 that I think impacted me in a lot of ways, just kind of being used to what one can believe, one doesn't. 01:55 Speaker 3 But, once you go to college, you really start to own your faith. 01:59 Speaker 3 I would have said that I was a Christian 100%, but I kind of like lost my identity as a Seventh-day Adventist. 02:05 Speaker 3 That probably wasn't super core. 02:07 Speaker 3 My dad and I never adhered to like the dietary laws or any of that stuff or the teachings of Ellen G. 02:13 Speaker 3 White or any of that. 02:13 Speaker 3 So 02:14 Speaker 3 But I was definitely a Christian. 02:15 Speaker 3 You go to college, but I feel like a lot of people's experiences, you kind of just kind of put it in the back burner. 02:21 Speaker 3 I saw my priority there as one, to get a degree, to learn, to be able to make income. 02:27 Speaker 3 Like that was truly my purpose wasn't even for like higher learning. 02:30 Speaker 3 It was, you know, hey, you're here so that you can earn income for the rest of your life. 02:34 Speaker 3 And so my dad had always made that clear. 02:36 Speaker 3 I went to UCLA. 02:37 Speaker 3 I was studying for my bachelor's of science in electrical engineering, computer science option. 02:43 Speaker 3 Once you graduate, the world, it's kind of scary to be honest when you're in academia, like, high school, college, I think I was automatically accepted in the master's program, but I knew I needed to like get out into the real world because I was terrified of like working. 02:57 Speaker 3 It's kind of scary to be honest when people tell you, hey, look, you're going to, you know, work for 40 or 50 years. 03:02 Speaker 3 You're just like, as a young kid, you know, you're just like, I graduated at 21, you know, from college and you're just sitting here saying, are you insane 40 years? 03:10 Speaker 3 That's 03:11 Speaker 3 61? 03:12 Speaker 3 that's crazy. 03:13 Speaker 3 I'm almost dead or whatever, in your mind. 03:15 Speaker 3 So that was hard. 03:17 Speaker 3 That was a really tough thing to swallow. 03:19 Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that I grew up in a Montessori for some years. 03:22 Speaker 3 I think that kind of changed the way I thought about things too. 03:25 Speaker 3 So I unfortunately would have probably been a little too aggressive with trying to solve that problem. 03:30 Speaker 3 Yeah, I met my wife, my senior year of college. 03:33 Speaker 3 That was a whole, honestly, that could be a whole story in and of itself. 03:38 Speaker 3 And that was wonderful. 03:39 Speaker 3 But God blessed us. 03:40 Speaker 3 We came together. 03:42 Speaker 3 I just, after turning 23, we got married and we really began our journey as a family. 03:48 Speaker 3 We decided both to seek a church that would be our church. 03:52 Speaker 3 And we found this wonderful church and it was like meeting in a middle school, I think it was. 03:58 Speaker 3 That was fun. 03:58 Speaker 3 We did our thing there, a lot of families. 04:00 Speaker 3 And we journeyed. 04:02 Speaker 3 And I would say I was a Christian, but I think my heart truly was seeking to be financially free. 04:10 Speaker 3 Like that was always in the back of my mind. 04:12 Speaker 3 Again, almost an embarrassment. 04:14 Speaker 3 I can just say I was like thinking of all kinds of things. 04:18 Speaker 3 Like how can I make money? 04:19 Speaker 3 You know, I think the Bible and Proverbs warns you about, you know, seeking quick gain. 04:24 Speaker 3 And I had to be careful about that. 04:26 Speaker 3 And yet at the same time, I was like, I'm not working 40 or 50 years. 04:29 Speaker 3 Like that's just not 04:30 Speaker 3 It's just not going to happen. 04:31 Speaker 3 So yeah, I put work and financial freedom first. 04:36 Speaker 3 And to my shame, to my shame, I don't say that with any kind of like. 04:42 Speaker 3 pride or anything, I say that to my shame. 04:44 Speaker 3 Like that was sad. 04:45 Speaker 3 Like even my wife was second. 04:47 Speaker 3 Like I don't think I ever even asked her. 04:49 Speaker 3 Like if I had a business trip, I had to go to Germany or Sweden. 04:52 Speaker 3 I didn't ask her like, does that work for you? 04:54 Speaker 3 Or hey, do you want to come? 04:55 Speaker 3 I was just, hey, I'm going on a thing. 04:58 Speaker 3 I'm gone. 04:59 Speaker 3 So if work needed me to work, 05:03 Speaker 3 for weeks, because I mean, the projects I worked on were so atypical that, I would be sitting here up at night sometimes. 05:09 Speaker 3 I got to work from home from an early year, I think was almost. 05:13 Speaker 3 the 2013 or something, I was allowed to work from home because they found that I just made huge progress. 05:19 Speaker 3 I was always very self-driven, focused. 05:21 Speaker 3 I didn't need somebody to sit here and, wasting the time back in Los Angeles, Orange County, the drive to work was like 50 minutes or an hour, one way. 05:29 Speaker 3 So they understood. 05:30 Speaker 3 They were like, dude, you just stay home, move all your lab equipment to your house. 05:35 Speaker 3 And my boss pretty early on was like, you're killing it, you keep doing it. 05:39 Speaker 3 So that was my thing. 05:40 Speaker 3 And every time, I mean, God was good, we'd get great bonuses, we'd get quarterly bonuses, vested stocks, we'd have annual bonuses. 05:47 Speaker 3 And I remember it was kind of awkward because a lot of the guys would sit here and buy a car or like, hey, I saved up for down payment on my house. 05:55 Speaker 3 And 05:56 Speaker 3 I just was saving it. 05:58 Speaker 3 I was always saving it. 05:58 Speaker 3 And I wasn't lying. 06:00 Speaker 3 I would say, oh, I'm thinking, I don't know. 06:02 Speaker 3 But it was like the boring answer of I'm still driving the car that I drove in college. 06:06 Speaker 3 In fact, I'm still driving that car. 06:08 Alex Ticer And that's many years later now. 06:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, almost 20 years old, that car now. 06:13 Speaker 3 So the most incredible. 06:15 Alex Ticer Story of all is that this car is still the car. 06:19 Speaker 3 God is holding that car together. 06:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. 06:21 Alex Ticer And today's episode is sponsored by Volkswagen. 06:26 Speaker 3 No, straight up, God is good. 06:29 Speaker 3 So it was funny. 06:30 Speaker 3 I would be going to the office, when early years and they had all these nice cars and I had this very practical, whatever. 06:37 Speaker 3 So it comes down to truly, as Jesus said, you cannot serve God and riches. 06:43 Speaker 3 And I think sadly, I didn't even realize it. 06:46 Speaker 3 was not something I was aware of, but I remember being pricked in my heart many times when I would hear those sermons where Jesus was talking about the seeds. 06:52 Speaker 3 And he would say, some fell on the wayside and the birds got it. 06:55 Speaker 3 And the one when he'd say the seeds that fell among the thorns and they were choked out and the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this world, made them unfruitful. 07:04 Speaker 3 I almost always somehow knew like, that's you. 07:08 Speaker 3 know that's you, right? 07:09 Speaker 3 And I would always be like, oh, I'll figure that out once I'm free. 07:13 Speaker 3 Like once I'm financially free, you're right, but I don't want to deal with it right now because I can't. 07:18 Speaker 3 I need to get free. 07:19 Speaker 3 That was like truly my only thought. 07:21 Speaker 3 And so 07:22 Speaker 3 Yeah, that continued for some time. 07:23 Speaker 3 We bought our first house at 25 and that was another wake up call, a house over half $1,000,000 and I was making good money, but I was sitting here going, man, even if I'm putting like a couple extra 1000 a month, I'm only reducing it by like maybe 10 years, 8 years. 07:38 Speaker 3 I forgot what it was. 07:39 Speaker 3 And I say, so even 20 something years, I'm like a slave in my mind. 07:42 Speaker 3 I always felt like I'm stuck. 07:44 Speaker 3 Like if you wanted to just say I'm gone, 07:46 Speaker 3 you couldn't. 07:47 Speaker 3 And I don't know, that was a weird thing. 07:49 Speaker 3 Like that was freedom for me is to be able to say, I can keep working. 07:51 Speaker 3 I like working. 07:52 Speaker 3 I love being productive. 07:53 Speaker 3 But if I wanted to, I could just say, you know, adios, you know, I'm gone. 07:56 Speaker 3 And that was terrifying. 07:58 Speaker 3 So eventually, there was a lot of stuff going on. 08:01 Speaker 3 We grew up in California. 08:02 Speaker 3 We eventually, Becky and I decided to move. 08:04 Speaker 3 We moved to Texas. 08:06 Speaker 3 That was truly only financial. 08:08 Speaker 3 To my shame, I never asked God, hey, is this your will for my life to go to Texas? 08:12 Speaker 3 No, I just looked at the numbers and said, there's a ton of software jobs in the Austin area. 08:17 Speaker 3 The cost of living is way less. 08:19 Speaker 3 I can buy a house, almost cash. 08:21 Speaker 3 And you know, I'm like, dude, this makes so much sense. 08:25 Speaker 3 So, you know, it was hard though. 08:27 Speaker 3 I had my family and my friends. 08:29 Speaker 3 So I'm not trying to make it sound like that was simple, but when all you care about is financial freedom, sadly, 08:36 Speaker 3 they probably, I didn't give them as much consideration as I should have. 08:40 Speaker 3 So we came to that. 08:40 Alex Ticer Question while you're just interrupt here. 08:43 Alex Ticer During this phase of your life, early 20s and 30, probably into your 30s, I would think, you're pursuing this financial freedom, you're pursuing aggressively saving, and that's really what you're living for, what you're working for. 09:01 Alex Ticer Were you happy? 09:03 Alex Ticer were you, was your soul satisfied or was it just like too busy to even think about that? 09:08 Speaker 3 It's probably a bit of both. 09:10 Speaker 3 I think when I was, I would have these weird like waves. 09:13 Speaker 3 I had these two year cycles for my projects. 09:15 Speaker 3 And so for about 18 months, pedal to the metal, you're going all out. 09:18 Speaker 3 But I'd have these like six months where I could kind of just relax, maybe not six, might have been like 4 or something, but it was a long time and I would usually just decompress for a month and then sort of research things. 09:29 Speaker 3 And that was tough because I think when you have moments by yourself, 09:33 Speaker 3 I think you do get scared. 09:36 Speaker 3 I think the closest one I can remember was we flew out to Gilbert, Arizona, and we were looking at buying, like, I don't remember what year. 09:43 Speaker 3 This was very close to the end when I had a lot of changes happen, but it was before that. 09:48 Speaker 3 I think I was just turning 30 or something, and it was crazy to think, you know, these things aren't linear. 09:54 Speaker 3 Like when you're saving like your investments, it's never like just a straight line. 09:58 Speaker 3 It's kind of a 10:00 Speaker 3 And so all of a sudden to realize this is happening, like I can see it. 10:04 Speaker 3 And she said, we can buy this house on the lake, blah, blah, blah. 10:07 Speaker 3 And I was like, you're right. 10:09 Speaker 3 And in just a few years, I won't even need to work. 10:14 Speaker 3 And that was like your goal for so long. 10:16 Speaker 3 But it was terrifying when I realized, but then what? 10:19 Speaker 3 am I going to fish every day? 10:22 Speaker 3 Am I going to sit on my boat? 10:24 Speaker 3 Yeah, like truly it was terrifying to be like, 10:27 Speaker 3 I have no idea, but I'm not going to be fishing every day. 10:29 Speaker 3 I'm not going to go to the gym. 10:31 Speaker 3 I mean, I go to the gym, but that's not my life. 10:33 Speaker 3 What do I do then? 10:34 Speaker 3 So I think that's maybe what you're asking, but I think you're right about I kind of would repress it where I'd say like, okay, that's horrifying, but once you get there. 10:43 Speaker 3 Yeah, don't let it distract you. 10:46 Speaker 3 Don't let it turn you left or right. 10:48 Speaker 3 So yeah. 10:49 Alex Ticer All right, we'll keep going. 10:50 Alex Ticer What happened next? 10:51 Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'll fast forward to 2019. 10:56 Speaker 3 So I would have been 32 at this time. 11:00 Speaker 3 We had our first girl, Abby, and now we just had our second girl, Hannah. 11:05 Speaker 3 And I noticed I was starting to have some health issues. 11:11 Speaker 3 And I shave a lot, but if I were ever to let my beard grow in, there's all these gray white hairs right here. 11:17 Speaker 3 I got those on one trip. 11:19 Alex Ticer What's wrong with that? 11:20 Speaker 3 Dude, yours looks good because it's kind of blended in. 11:23 Speaker 3 No, mine's like freakishly like dark, like white, all white anyways. 11:29 Speaker 3 And it didn't start even that cool. 11:30 Speaker 3 It just started kind of like anyways. 11:32 Speaker 3 It was terrifying. 11:33 Speaker 3 It was from one trip. 11:34 Speaker 3 I was out in Germany and it was a huge pressure thing. 11:36 Speaker 3 We were out there for two weeks and my boss was like, you know, I'd been given the source code from some whole group, this whole company, this was how they made their money. 11:44 Speaker 3 They couldn't get it to work. 11:45 Speaker 3 They said, you know, I had to speak to them, convince their engineering team, like I already kind of was figuring it out. 11:50 Speaker 3 I said, just give me the source code. 11:51 Speaker 3 I bet in a week I can have it solved. 11:53 Speaker 3 Well, my boss was on me every day. 11:54 Speaker 3 You know, figure that out, figure that, figure that. 11:56 Speaker 3 And it just like, that's where my hair is. 11:58 Speaker 3 I came back from that trip and my wife goes, what the, because I used to not shave every day. 12:02 Speaker 3 And I said, what? 12:04 Speaker 3 So I started shaving every day. 12:08 Speaker 3 Anyways, I don't know where I was going with any of that. 12:11 Speaker 3 But yeah, so I had stress in my life plenty of times, but I felt like this was different. 12:15 Speaker 3 I was very aware that like, 12:18 Speaker 3 I don't know what it is, but something serious is wrong. 12:21 Speaker 3 And I used to have really flexible PTO, like, my boss was very cool. 12:26 Speaker 3 And I think I might have taken a little time off because, yeah, because we had Hannah. 12:31 Speaker 3 Like I had some time off, but it didn't really help. 12:33 Speaker 3 And, for paternity leave. 12:36 Speaker 3 And I remember being really concerned such that like I started looking into it because I was like, okay, I don't think this is just stress. 12:43 Speaker 3 Like, 12:45 Speaker 3 I'm really concerned, but I was also concerned because it started to remind me of my grandpa. 12:51 Speaker 3 So my grandfather had a genetic illness that killed him and it was horrifying. 12:58 Speaker 3 And when I was little, I got to be with my grandma and him a lot on the summers and kind of witnessed that firsthand. 13:07 Speaker 3 And so my mind immediately was like, hey, what about that? 13:10 Speaker 3 So I looked it up. 13:12 Speaker 3 And I was horrified to see that these match up the symptoms were like, and that can be true of some things too. 13:19 Speaker 3 But the fact that my grandfather had it was sort of like, boy, really almost panic. 13:25 Speaker 3 But I told myself, hold on, hold on. 13:28 Speaker 3 Your dad has told you he's been tested. 13:30 Speaker 3 And something important about this is it can't skip a generation. 13:34 Speaker 3 So if your father does not have it, you cannot have it. 13:38 Speaker 3 if any of their parents don't have it, you can't have it. 13:40 Speaker 3 It's not recessive. 13:42 Speaker 3 It doesn't pass a generation. 13:43 Speaker 3 So if he's good, he's good. 13:44 Speaker 3 And he had told me, he had told me, you know, I've been tested. 13:47 Speaker 3 I was negative. 13:48 Speaker 3 So I kind of held on to that in my heart, went to him one day and my dad and I usually goof off, you know, but I had a like, I was like, dude, we need to go on a walk. 13:56 Speaker 3 It's like crazy serious. 13:58 Speaker 3 I was probably like way over the top, but this was like all I could think about. 14:02 Speaker 3 And I just asked him real quick, like, here's all this stuff going on. 14:06 Speaker 3 I have all these weird things happening. 14:07 Speaker 3 And I'm just fully, like being as completely honest as I can possibly be. 14:11 Speaker 3 I looked this up and though grandpa didn't have this until he was in his 60s, I did find some cases where people in their 30s had this and I'm in my 30s. 14:20 Speaker 3 And I just said, like, can you provide or show me the test that you took just to be sure? 14:26 Speaker 3 And he told me, you know, like, I remember it. 14:28 Speaker 3 We were walking and he just stopped. 14:31 Speaker 3 and looked down and just with as much brokenness as he could, he was like, I'm sorry, I lied. 14:40 Speaker 3 I just said that to get people off my back. 14:42 Speaker 3 I didn't want people to. 14:44 Alex Ticer What did that feel like in that moment? 14:47 Speaker 3 I'll never be able to do it justice because it was like a dam of water. 14:52 Speaker 3 All these fears that you were keeping back with the thought that, no, my dad has been tested. 14:59 Speaker 3 And the second that he said that, it's like the whole thing crushed and flooded past me. 15:03 Speaker 3 And I was almost like, you have this now. 15:07 Speaker 3 I almost felt like it was so crazy. 15:10 Speaker 3 And sadly, I don't remember much of the rest of the conversation because I think I was like punched in the head. 15:13 Speaker 3 And all I was thinking about was I need to get tested. 15:16 Speaker 3 I do remember a little bit of that. 15:17 Speaker 3 And my dad said, why? 15:19 Speaker 3 And I just said, are you kidding? 15:20 Speaker 3 Like, I just had two kids. 15:21 Speaker 3 We're thinking about having a third. 15:23 Speaker 3 If I have this, 15:24 Speaker 3 and I'm gonna die maybe in 10 years. 15:26 Speaker 3 It's unpredictable about when you'll die. 15:28 Speaker 3 But I was given kind of an average in my head and I said, I'm not gonna have another kid and possibly pass it down to them and then be dead before they're even in their teenage year. 15:37 Speaker 3 Like that's insane. 15:38 Speaker 3 I have to know. 15:39 Speaker 3 And my dad and I are very different, but I was like, I have to know. 15:41 Speaker 3 I have to know. 15:42 Speaker 3 So I went and got tested. 15:43 Speaker 3 And this is really important also is I didn't, my dad was cool. 15:48 Speaker 3 I said, don't you dare tell anybody. 15:50 Speaker 3 He's like, I won't, you know, I understand. 15:52 Speaker 3 And I don't lie. 15:54 Speaker 3 So this made things very difficult because I didn't want to stress out Becky, my wife. 15:59 Speaker 3 We had just had a kid. 16:01 Speaker 3 And I basically was having to deal with this all by myself kind of a thing because if I told her or even hinted at something, I was just going to worry her. 16:10 Speaker 3 And I thought, you know, I don't want to do that. 16:13 Speaker 3 Plus, I wanted to be able to tell her kind of when I was ready, I guess, which probably would have been quick. 16:20 Speaker 3 But 16:21 Speaker 3 so when I went to the doctor, I remember that was a funny thing where he was sitting there puzzled because he's like, just tell him that, it was negative and you're good. 16:30 Speaker 3 I said, yeah, but I don't lie. 16:31 Speaker 3 And it really was like a crazy concept for him. 16:34 Speaker 3 I guess for some reason, just the idea that like, what do you mean? 16:37 Speaker 3 You can't just tell him whatever you want to tell him. 16:39 Speaker 3 And I was like, no. 16:39 Speaker 3 So I don't, I can't tell her I'm even being tested. 16:42 Speaker 3 She doesn't even know. 16:43 Speaker 3 I used to do that pretty often too. 16:45 Speaker 3 I just take it off work and do whatever I wanted. 16:47 Speaker 3 So she didn't, she didn't think that was weird, but I just went to the doctor and I 16:51 Speaker 3 scheduled all this stuff. 16:52 Speaker 3 And he's like, all right, well, cool. 16:54 Speaker 3 You'll unfortunately have to wait a little bit. 16:56 Speaker 3 So I took the test. 16:57 Speaker 3 I don't remember exactly what date I took the test, but I knew it was right before Christmas and New Years. 17:03 Speaker 3 And he said, I'm really sorry, but there's going to be a little bit of a delay. 17:06 Speaker 3 And I know it's going to kill you because everyone wants to know. 17:09 Speaker 3 but with the labs going to be shut down Christmas, New Year, the chances of the thing coming back before the new year is like pretty much nothing. 17:17 Speaker 3 So just hold tight. 17:18 Speaker 3 It just because it's a little delayed doesn't mean it's bad news or good news. 17:22 Speaker 3 Just please bear with us. 17:24 Speaker 3 And when we call you, we're not going to tell you the results over the phone, you know, because the problem is people don't come in. 17:31 Speaker 3 So when we tell you the results, when we tell you that the results are in, you're going to have to come in person. 17:37 Speaker 3 because otherwise when it's negative, nobody, or bad news, nobody wants to come. 17:40 Speaker 3 Nobody, no one, almost no one shows up. 17:42 Speaker 3 So I said, okay, I get it, I get it, and all that. 17:46 Speaker 3 And so again, I don't know what date that was, but obviously it was before Christmas. 17:52 Speaker 3 But like that was on my head. 17:54 Speaker 3 And I guess that was, this is like the moment that pretty much was changed my life because during that time, and I'll never, I can never like communicate this effectively because 18:07 Speaker 3 We, there are some people maybe who really know this. 18:10 Speaker 3 I think there are people who have lived this or have this, but I would say most of us like empathize with someone. 18:16 Speaker 3 We go, I understand, but it's because you're placing yourself in their shoes, but you haven't actually lived it. 18:23 Speaker 3 Like you watch a sad movie, right? 18:25 Speaker 3 And you're crying, you're truly in tears, but you deep down know like, that's not me. 18:29 Speaker 3 That's just a movie. 18:30 Speaker 3 Or a good friend of yours dies. 18:32 Speaker 3 Your mother dies. 18:33 Speaker 3 Like a friend of yours dies. 18:35 Speaker 3 They died. 18:36 Speaker 3 they were suffering. 18:38 Speaker 3 You knew. 18:38 Speaker 3 And even like with cancer, like there's a chance, a chance you may live. 18:42 Speaker 3 Like there is hope. 18:43 Speaker 3 Like you're like, I can't. 18:45 Speaker 3 There's no treatment, no cure. 18:47 Speaker 3 This thing is so, rare that no one's bothered to like find a, you know, find a thing for it. 18:53 Speaker 3 It's like too bad stuff that, you know? 18:54 Speaker 3 So this was like sinking in every night I went to bed and every day I woke up. 18:59 Speaker 3 I remember always just. 19:01 Alex Ticer Like, And you're dealing with this all alone too. 19:03 Alex Ticer You're not. 19:04 Speaker 3 You're not aware. 19:08 Alex Ticer So you're just like, and your dad. 19:10 Speaker 3 He didn't want to talk to him. 19:12 Alex Ticer It was important to get tested. 19:13 Alex Ticer So you're not really talking to him about it during this time. 19:18 Alex Ticer You are a Christian though, but not really passionate about your faith. 19:25 Alex Ticer Right. 19:25 Alex Ticer But at the same time, you don't lie. 19:27 Alex Ticer You're very. 19:28 Alex Ticer Very high integrity. 19:30 Speaker 3 It's weird. 19:31 Speaker 3 Like again, if you'd asked me, are you a Christian? 19:32 Speaker 3 I'd say yes. 19:33 Speaker 3 It's like, hey, you're going to be fired for loving Jesus. 19:35 Speaker 3 I'd say fine. 19:36 Speaker 3 But you're right about I wasn't living it, right? 19:38 Speaker 3 There's like an intellectual thing, but like truly there was a disconnect. 19:43 Speaker 3 Like, and I guess you're kind of getting to it where my heart, as this sinks in, like truly starts to really take root. 19:53 Speaker 3 And I guess in my mind, it was like, you will surely die. 19:57 Speaker 3 You're kidding yourself. 19:58 Speaker 3 You know you have this. 20:00 Speaker 3 You don't need a little test result to tell you have this. 20:03 Speaker 3 What are you going to do about this? 20:05 Speaker 3 And that was like that thing where, I know the date, that was December 29th, 2019, when I feel like I finally just, I just broke. 20:15 Speaker 3 It's funny, we had a big house and so my wife, I don't know where she was, she was downstairs, I guess, but I was upstairs in our master bath and I just started crying so bad. 20:27 Speaker 3 And it was so many emotions because I think at first I was just like pleading to live, please save me. 20:35 Speaker 3 Like, I don't want to die like this. 20:37 Speaker 3 Like my grandpa tried killing himself. 20:39 Speaker 3 Some people try ending their own life on their own terms with this. 20:42 Speaker 3 And so, you know, this was huge. 20:45 Speaker 3 Like, I was like, and I got to see this. 20:46 Speaker 3 I almost felt like, God, I think you had me see this for a reason. 20:51 Speaker 3 But I don't know what to do now other than I'm like begging for my life, right? 20:55 Speaker 3 And as I'm doing that and praying and crying, I'm almost more convicted because it was like, why? 21:04 Speaker 3 would he give me more time? 21:05 Speaker 3 I'm 32. 21:07 Speaker 3 Some would say, you know, that's really young, right? 21:09 Speaker 3 But in my mind, I'm like, I've lived 32 years. 21:12 Speaker 3 Like I've been an adult for like 12 of those or something. 21:14 Speaker 3 You know, like that's a long time. 21:17 Speaker 3 And all of a sudden to just have that just cut into you to go, why would God give you any extra time? 21:23 Speaker 3 What have you done with your life up to this point? 21:26 Speaker 3 And all this stuff just starts sinking in. 21:29 Speaker 3 because it's funny, I would read my Bible every night. 21:31 Speaker 3 This is what's so ironic, right? 21:33 Speaker 3 I read my Bible, like even if I was drunk or like had an exam, if I had a game the next day, like it didn't matter how tired I was, like 4 A.m., I would still read it. 21:42 Speaker 3 was really weird. 21:42 Speaker 3 I'd read the Bible. 21:43 Speaker 3 And so these words, I feel like then came to mind. 21:46 Speaker 3 Remember that parable where 21:48 Speaker 3 is talking about this guy, he's all rich, tears down his barns, builds bigger ones, and he's like, eat and drink, be merry and all this. 21:54 Speaker 3 And then God says to him, you fool, this very night your life will be required of you. 22:00 Speaker 3 And whose will those things be that you worked so hard for? 22:04 Speaker 3 And I just was like bawling, being like, I have wasted my life in the most embarrassed, like the worst possible way 22:18 Speaker 3 I've put this above everything. 22:21 Speaker 3 And just as Jesus said, now I'm gonna die. 22:23 Speaker 3 Like literally, I'm going, it's like exactly what this parable's about. 22:26 Speaker 3 I'm gonna die. 22:27 Speaker 3 And now all this stuff that I worked for is meaningless. 22:31 Speaker 3 I could use all of this money and it wouldn't mean anything. 22:34 Speaker 3 I couldn't bribe a doctor. 22:35 Speaker 3 I couldn't pay a judge. 22:36 Speaker 3 There's nothing I could do with all of it. 22:39 Speaker 3 meant nothing. 22:39 Speaker 3 It was truly useless to me. 22:41 Speaker 3 I was like helpless, beyond helpless, like being naked before God to be like, 22:46 Speaker 3 What are you going to do? 22:47 Speaker 3 And all the while, the worst part too was if I had lived a godly life, you might say, maybe like, okay, I've served God. 22:56 Speaker 3 In my heart, I knew I was going to come before the Lord Jesus and he was not going to say, well done, good and faithful servant. 23:02 Speaker 3 I felt like I could almost see him with a tear in his eye. 23:05 Speaker 3 Like I never knew you. 23:07 Speaker 3 And it killed me, killed me because I would have said, oh yeah, I love Jesus. 23:11 Speaker 3 I follow Jesus. 23:13 Speaker 3 But in the moment, it was such clarity to know that's not true. 23:16 Speaker 3 My own heart condemned me. 23:18 Speaker 3 This isn't true. 23:19 Speaker 3 You did not serve God. 23:20 Speaker 3 You didn't serve his son. 23:21 Speaker 3 You've done nothing except serve yourself and for the cares and riches and the deceitfulness of this world. 23:26 Speaker 3 And now you're going to die. 23:27 Speaker 3 And your wife, she's young, she's 32. 23:30 Speaker 3 She's going to marry another man. 23:33 Speaker 3 and she's gonna be intimate with him, have jokes with him. 23:36 Speaker 3 And this whole time, your memory, like the memory of you that she'll think of will be like my grandma with my grandpa, where it's mixed, it's bittersweet. 23:43 Speaker 3 Like there were those parts where you remember him as a man, but then you also have this horrible guilt of feeling, you know, shame because you were embarrassed of him and all these other things that happened in those last years, maybe those last like 5, 6, 10 years. 23:58 Speaker 3 And then my children, they were so young, they're never gonna remember the good me. 24:02 Speaker 3 They're never gonna 24:02 Speaker 3 remember that Alex who was like confident, capable, who loved him. 24:06 Speaker 3 They're going to remember the creep who scares them and they're terrified of. 24:11 Speaker 3 And they're like, I don't know this guy. 24:13 Speaker 3 Like, who is he? 24:14 Speaker 3 You know, I can't even understand what he's saying. 24:16 Speaker 3 And so I was like, they're like, all that I've done, everything that I have, they're going to love this other guy. 24:22 Speaker 3 They're going to look to him for like wisdom. 24:24 Speaker 3 They're going to they're going to seek comfort from him. 24:27 Speaker 3 He's going to walk them down the aisle when they get married, you know? 24:30 Speaker 3 Wow. 24:31 Speaker 3 And I was like, it was so hard. 24:35 Speaker 3 And there's just like, in my mind, it was like, there's really nothing. 24:42 Speaker 3 There is no hope but one thing. 24:48 Speaker 3 I knew somehow God could do this. 24:50 Speaker 3 when you start to have problems, when you're reading the Bible, you start to focus on the healings in Jesus. 24:56 Alex Ticer Yes. 24:57 Speaker 3 And I was like paying attention so much when you say, according to your faith, so let it be done. 25:02 Speaker 3 If you believe, and I remember thinking, yo, this is crazy. 25:06 Speaker 3 And here I am, and God's not a genie. 25:10 Speaker 3 And I wasn't saying, do this, you know, if you're real. 25:14 Speaker 3 But truly, I felt like, we talked about this, like Hezekiah, this idea of truly weeping bitterly. 25:21 Speaker 3 But sadly, he kind of could lean back on, I've served you all these years. 25:24 Speaker 3 Mine was truly like at the mercy of the living God. 25:30 Speaker 3 Like it's only if you choose, because I have nothing I can say. 25:34 Speaker 3 There's not one ounce of me that could genuinely say, yeah, but nothing. 25:40 Speaker 3 So it was truly a, I want to live so badly. 25:44 Speaker 3 But I said, if you don't, I will still love you. 25:48 Speaker 3 And I don't know how much time I have left, because that was the only upside, was I said, I think I have this, but you know what? 25:55 Speaker 3 I may still have five good years, maybe more. 25:58 Speaker 3 Whatever time I have left, I'm going to serve you. 26:02 Speaker 3 No more excuses, no more junk. 26:04 Speaker 3 I don't care. 26:05 Speaker 3 I'm all in. 26:07 Speaker 3 But I do, I really am still begging. 26:09 Speaker 3 I want to live, live. 26:11 Speaker 3 Like I don't want to like, have this tick tock, tick tock and then to go through all this. 26:15 Speaker 3 Like I don't want to do this. 26:16 Speaker 3 It's so, I'm going to put my family through so much. 26:21 Speaker 3 And I mean, I've condensed it really short, but I was praying for hours. 26:25 Speaker 3 I was up there crying. 26:26 Alex Ticer This was your prayer. 26:27 Alex Ticer You're going to God. 26:29 Alex Ticer You're weeping. 26:31 Alex Ticer You're full of regret. 26:35 Alex Ticer Oh, I've wasted my life. 26:37 Alex Ticer Whatever time left, I'm going to give to you. 26:41 Alex Ticer So this is, this something that you did multiple times or this is like a one time? 26:45 Speaker 3 This is not one night. 26:46 Speaker 3 This is this one night. 26:47 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying. 26:48 Alex Ticer It's like, it was like 2 hours. 26:49 Alex Ticer 29th of December, right? 26:51 Alex Ticer Is that what you said? 26:52 Speaker 3 Yep, December 29th, 2019. 26:54 Alex Ticer Yeah, please continue. 26:56 Speaker 3 Yeah, and yeah, I'm condensing it of course for brevity, but like it's kind of funny too. 27:01 Speaker 3 Oh, and this is an important thing too. 27:05 Speaker 3 up until this point, I had become truly, okay, I've never been addicted to cocaine. 27:10 Speaker 3 So I don't know how that is. 27:11 Speaker 3 But I was addicted to ***********. 27:13 Speaker 3 And I mean, when I was, mean addicted, I mean addicted. 27:15 Speaker 3 Like, it wasn't a, like, I felt like at this point, I was like, I don't even feel like I can control myself. 27:20 Speaker 3 I'm like sweating. 27:21 Speaker 3 I'm like resisting with every ounce of me. 27:23 Speaker 3 But it was always like, well, how long, it's like, it's just days. 27:26 Speaker 3 How many days are you gonna kick the can before you're gonna do it again? 27:29 Speaker 3 So during this time, this was a huge thing too. 27:32 Speaker 3 I was like, really like repentance 27:34 Speaker 3 of all everything I could think of, where I was like, I've held something against this guy. 27:39 Speaker 3 I've like hated this person. 27:40 Speaker 3 Forgive me. 27:41 Speaker 3 Like when Jesus said, if you don't forgive others, neither will your father forgive you. 27:44 Speaker 3 Again, these words all come into my head and I'm like saying these things. 27:47 Speaker 3 And another one of these was this idea. 27:48 Speaker 3 I'm like, I've been turning to this filth. 27:51 Speaker 3 And I'm like, I'm, again, people can argue theologically, but I'm convinced that when I choose to do that, I am separating myself from God. 28:00 Speaker 3 I am choosing to turn my back. 28:01 Speaker 3 He's still there, but I am removing my, like I'm distancing myself. 28:06 Speaker 3 I'm turning myself away. 28:08 Speaker 3 And so I was repenting of that and I was like, I don't have much time left and I don't want one stupid minute left of my life being wasted on that filth and separating myself from you because I don't know, but this time is now. 28:21 Speaker 3 precious. 28:21 Speaker 3 Like 5 years? 28:22 Speaker 3 That's, I mean, some might say this a long time. 28:24 Speaker 3 I didn't feel like that's a lot. 28:25 Speaker 3 And I was like, I don't want to waste one minute of this. 28:27 Speaker 3 When I begged, I said, you kill and destroy everything, that's in me. 28:32 Speaker 3 Like, I don't want this filth. 28:33 Speaker 3 I don't want these addictions. 28:34 Speaker 3 I don't want to have anything that separates me from you. 28:37 Speaker 3 Nothing. 28:38 Speaker 3 And I meant it. 28:39 Speaker 3 I meant it. 28:39 Speaker 3 Mike, if it means whatever, I mean, truly, if it's plucking out my eye, I don't think that would solve this. 28:45 Speaker 3 But I mean, I'm all in. 28:46 Speaker 3 Like, do whatever it takes to free me from this. 28:50 Speaker 3 And so as I'm praying pretty vehemently, I was in the closet as Jesus said. 28:53 Speaker 3 At some point I moved to the closet because I didn't mean to start doing this. 28:56 Speaker 3 I don't remember even how it came upon me, but I just started weeping and then I was like moving my way to the closet to maybe be a little more discreet. 29:03 Speaker 3 Jesus said, go into a quiet place and ask your father and pray to him there. 29:07 Speaker 3 And so I was praying there and I was trying my best to kind of make a distinction of who I was praying to and not because I was a Trinitarian at this time and I still believe they were all God. 29:17 Speaker 3 But I guess what I was trying to do was do what Jesus said to do. 29:20 Speaker 3 And so I was trying my best to be like, he said, pray to the father. 29:23 Speaker 3 Like I'm trying to do this. 29:25 Speaker 3 Like it was really weird. 29:27 Speaker 3 But I mean, with every part of me, I was trying to do what Jesus said. 29:31 Speaker 3 And incredibly during that time, I'm praying there. 29:35 Speaker 3 And again, it was probably two or three hours of crying and crying and praying and crying and just, and I had my eyes closed and it's dark in the closet. 29:43 Speaker 3 There's this bright light, because I was praying for healing, like almost as I'm cycling through like confessing sins and forgive me for that, you know, then I would still say like, I know you can, I know you can save me. 29:54 Speaker 3 Whether you will or won't, I don't know, but I know you can. 29:58 Speaker 3 And so, yeah, I think I'm literally praying that. 30:01 Speaker 3 And there's this bright light. 30:03 Speaker 3 And I was like, wakes. 30:04 Speaker 3 And I thought my wife came in and turned on the light. 30:06 Speaker 3 I thought Becky walked into the closet and turned on the light. 30:08 Speaker 3 So when I opened my eyes, I was even more disoriented because it was dark. 30:12 Speaker 3 And I jumped up real quick, opened the door thinking she must have come in, turned on the light and then turned it off when she saw me or something. 30:19 Speaker 3 But then I was like, you know, hey Becky or whatever. 30:21 Speaker 3 And she's not in there. 30:22 Speaker 3 She's nowhere there. 30:23 Speaker 3 And I looked down and she was downstairs or something. 30:24 Speaker 3 And I kind of walking back puzzled. 30:27 Speaker 3 And it's funny because in the moment, all I remember thinking was, wow, my 30:32 Speaker 3 It's like, it's like clear. 30:34 Speaker 3 Like I can think like there's none of this noise. 30:36 Speaker 3 There's no confusion. 30:38 Speaker 3 And so I just was like, truly like, I don't, I didn't really even contemplate the idea that maybe I've been healed or anything other than I'm just sitting here thinking, thank you. 30:49 Speaker 3 And I was like, thank you for this moment of clarity. 30:52 Speaker 3 So I go to bed, I slept like a baby. 30:54 Speaker 3 I woke up the next morning and I was like on fire. 30:56 Speaker 3 I was like, I went to the gym and the whole time I'm sitting there like, father, what am I gonna do? 31:01 Speaker 3 What do you want me to do? 31:02 Speaker 3 And it's so embarrassing that I was like, I don't have a clue what it means really to serve you. 31:06 Speaker 3 So I'm just like, what am I supposed to do? 31:08 Speaker 3 Am I supposed to quit my job? 31:09 Speaker 3 Am I supposed to start an orphanage? 31:11 Speaker 3 Am I supposed to become a pastor? 31:12 Speaker 3 Like, what is it that you want me to do? 31:15 Speaker 3 And as I'm doing that, I get a call from the doctor's office. 31:18 Speaker 3 And they say the results are in, can you make it today? 31:21 Speaker 3 And I was like, yeah. 31:25 Speaker 3 And as I'm driving. 31:26 Alex Ticer That's early too, because they were saying it would be after New Year's. 31:30 Speaker 3 So that must have been December 30th. 31:32 Speaker 3 Yep. 31:33 Alex Ticer Okay. 31:33 Speaker 3 Yep. 31:34 Alex Ticer So you were happy to go in and find? 31:37 Speaker 3 I wanted to know. 31:38 Speaker 3 I'm a guy who wants to know. 31:40 Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm just, I truly am a guy who's like, I just want to know that the suspense, I'm not a fan of suspense. 31:45 Speaker 3 I just, and as I'm driving, 31:47 Speaker 3 I hear a sermon and it's about faith. 31:49 Speaker 3 And it's like, if you believe, and I remember thinking, this can't be a coincidence. 31:53 Speaker 3 In my mind also, I don't think it's a coincidence. 31:55 Speaker 3 And I was like, I know you can. 31:57 Speaker 3 But again, whether you will or won't, I don't know. 31:59 Speaker 3 Went into the doctor's office. 32:01 Speaker 3 He's like, it's great news. 32:03 Speaker 3 It's negative. 32:04 Speaker 3 And I was just, I don't know, like kind of, I don't know, just like sinking in. 32:10 Speaker 3 And he's like, did you not hear what I said? 32:12 Speaker 3 This is great. 32:13 Speaker 3 This is good. 32:14 Speaker 3 What's wrong with you? 32:16 Speaker 3 I think I was like, thank you. 32:18 Speaker 3 Thanks, and I just, I remembered you guys. 32:23 Speaker 3 Yeah, he's like, you're the weirdest guy. 32:26 Alex Ticer Why weren't you thrilled? 32:27 Speaker 3 I don't know, but all I remember is him being like, you're one of the weirdest guys I've ever met. 32:33 Speaker 3 And I did say, I'm like, I'm sorry, I appreciate everything you've done or something. 32:37 Speaker 3 And I thank you. 32:39 Speaker 3 And I don't know, I just like walked, but as soon as I got into my car, I cried and cried and cried. 32:45 Speaker 3 I definitely do. 32:46 Alex Ticer Like in the moment, I'm totally blank. 32:53 Alex Ticer I have to take some time afterwards and then it'll hit me. 32:58 Alex Ticer Yeah, I'm just like that too. 33:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. 33:01 Speaker 3 And I think that's all it was. 33:02 Speaker 3 I don't know. 33:03 Speaker 3 This is the biggest thing in my life that could possibly be. 33:05 Speaker 3 And I know, you know, again, for him, it's like, let's rejoice or something. 33:10 Speaker 3 But like, 33:11 Speaker 3 I think it's like, dude, I just had this thing, all this stuff, just so much of this. 33:16 Speaker 3 And to be like, what I've had accepted as my reality now is all of a sudden being reset again. 33:22 Speaker 3 Like I'd almost come to terms, not that I was happy with it, but like could come to almost mentally accept you're dying. 33:28 Speaker 3 And so then hear this, you're just like, and my mind was still clear. 33:31 Speaker 3 I remember this is so crazy. 33:32 Speaker 3 And so I know some people, you know, have different opinions and all this, but 33:37 Speaker 3 I'm still convinced I was healed that night, December 29, 2019. 33:40 Speaker 3 And again, I know some people say, well, how's that possible? 33:42 Speaker 3 Your blood was drawn before that. 33:44 Speaker 3 And I said, God could heal the blood there or the sample or whatever. 33:47 Speaker 3 I mean, I'm not going to limit the God that I serve. 33:49 Speaker 3 So I don't know how, but I'm convinced it happened then. 33:52 Speaker 3 And this was a huge thing. 33:54 Speaker 3 I cried for about an hour in the car and it's kind of not funny, but it was a little funny to me that I said, I can't keep my eyes open without crying. 34:01 Speaker 3 I'm afraid I'm going to crash on the way home and die. 34:04 Speaker 3 And I just thought, I need to get it together because like, I mean, I've been given a renewed license on my life. 34:11 Speaker 3 Like I've really felt like I have been extended kind of like Hezekiah this time now. 34:16 Speaker 3 And I still meant every word I said where I'm like, I'm going to serve you now. 34:20 Speaker 3 I still don't understand what or how, but I knew like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna serve you. 34:26 Speaker 3 So that was, that was huge. 34:27 Speaker 3 It changed everything. 34:28 Speaker 3 And I got home, I told Becky and yeah, she, was like, what is all, you didn't tell me about this. 34:35 Speaker 3 I go, I just felt like I couldn't. 34:39 Alex Ticer Cause if it was bad. 34:43 Alex Ticer Yeah, she had a lot of stuff. 34:45 Alex Ticer Alex, why is he so weepy? 34:48 Speaker 3 Yeah, she has so much going on. 34:50 Speaker 3 Exactly. 34:50 Speaker 3 And I didn't want to add one more thing to be like, here, worry about me too, you know? 34:54 Speaker 3 No, because she can't do anything. 34:56 Speaker 3 I was like, I don't want to just unnecessarily burden her with this. 34:59 Speaker 3 I'll have to figure this out. 35:00 Speaker 3 And when I present this to her, I want to be able to tell her, here, financially, you're going to be fine. 35:05 Speaker 3 Here, you know this, you're going to, you know, whatever. 35:07 Speaker 3 But 35:08 Speaker 3 and I'm going to try to figure out how to take care of myself or whatever, so I'm not a burden on you or something. 35:13 Speaker 3 But anyways, God is beyond good. 35:15 Speaker 3 I didn't have to have that conversation. 35:16 Speaker 3 I just told her, here's the thing and my results. 35:19 Speaker 3 I've got them filed away somewhere. 35:21 Speaker 3 I'm just like, oh, this was so huge. 35:22 Speaker 3 And 35:24 Speaker 3 so that truly, I would say that night was when I was born again, because I think that I was really the ownership of, I had a lot of knowledge, I was reading every night, but now it was like, I'm gonna live this. 35:35 Speaker 3 Like when Jesus says this, means I'm gonna do this. 35:38 Speaker 3 When he, it's not a choice anymore. 35:40 Speaker 3 Like when it says like you are not your own, you're bought with a price, I'm saying I absolutely under, like absolutely like having been set free from sin, you become slaves to righteousness. 35:48 Speaker 3 Amen. 35:49 Speaker 3 And you know, I'm sorry, and to go back to the whole *********** thing, 35:52 Speaker 3 I haven't since. 35:53 Speaker 3 That was 2019 and not even like the desire to. 35:57 Speaker 3 And I'm telling you that was a miracle because with all my might, it just wasn't happening. 36:04 Speaker 3 But I'm like that night, and that's what I mean, that December 29, 2019, I feel like I was set free in so many ways. 36:08 Alex Ticer That burden was just lifted or that. 36:10 Speaker 3 It was crazy, crazy. 36:12 Alex Ticer Was just taken away. 36:13 Alex Ticer It was awesome. 36:14 Speaker 3 It was crazy. 36:15 Alex Ticer So what happened next? 36:16 Alex Ticer Did you keep working your job or? 36:23 Speaker 3 Yep, I kept working. 36:24 Speaker 3 It's like kind of, it's kind of embarrassing and a little bit, I guess, a negative thing that I still worked. 36:30 Speaker 3 So that was, if that was December, I still worked until about June of 2020. 36:36 Speaker 3 And it's because like, this was so ingrained in me. 36:39 Speaker 3 Like you don't just like leave your job that it was hard. 36:42 Speaker 3 And I didn't know what, like I didn't know what the what was like, it's easy when it's like, here's where you're going to. 36:48 Speaker 3 then you can leave this and go to that. 36:50 Speaker 3 But in the absence of what I was going to go to, I was like struggling, but I started having some stuff. 36:56 Speaker 3 I couldn't even finish writing an e-mail without like my finger. 36:59 Speaker 3 I have it recorded somewhere. 37:00 Speaker 3 Like my finger just started like jiggling like crazy. 37:02 Speaker 3 And I was like, what the? 37:03 Speaker 3 And then it reminded me, 37:06 Speaker 3 you made a promise. 37:07 Speaker 3 Like, it's not like I was bargaining with God, but it's like, I meant what I said. 37:11 Speaker 3 You need to go do this. 37:12 Speaker 3 I took some time off. 37:13 Speaker 3 I took a week off. 37:14 Speaker 3 I fasted for a few days. 37:15 Speaker 3 I was praying. 37:16 Speaker 3 I was reading. 37:16 Speaker 3 I remember being like, none of this makes sense to me, to be honest. 37:19 Speaker 3 Like, I don't think I don't, I wouldn't even like advise this for most people exactly. 37:24 Speaker 3 But in my confusion, you know, and I hate to say it was like an addiction or like a struggle or something, 37:30 Speaker 3 But I was struggling with separating myself and my identity and everything as a provider, as a software engineer, as a, everything to really walk away from that. 37:40 Speaker 3 And so I did, I did. 37:41 Speaker 3 Eventually I just put in my two weeks. 37:43 Speaker 3 I said, I'm out. 37:44 Speaker 3 And 37:46 Speaker 3 And I left and that was during COVID and all that stuff. 37:48 Speaker 3 So I was kind of blessed. 37:49 Speaker 3 Like things were chaotic. 37:52 Speaker 3 People didn't really get angry about it. 37:54 Speaker 3 They just were like, yeah, stuff's happening, man. 37:56 Speaker 3 Like all the best. 37:57 Speaker 3 So I told my folks and my wife and I don't lie. 38:01 Speaker 3 So I meant it. 38:02 Speaker 3 I said, I'm going to start my own software company. 38:04 Speaker 3 I tried it before and I had an idea. 38:06 Speaker 3 I had to seek a bunch of lawyers because I was afraid to be sued into oblivion because it sort of was related to stuff I had worked on with my other company. 38:13 Speaker 3 Blah, blah, blah. 38:14 Speaker 3 I was going to do some within a 38:16 Speaker 3 month, I think. 38:17 Speaker 3 My company gets, or not my company, the previous company I worked for was acquired by another company. 38:23 Speaker 3 Also, I then find out that there was only two companies in the world that were doing the thing that I was about to do. 38:28 Speaker 3 And they had basically like a monopoly on this. 38:30 Speaker 3 And I was like, dude, I'll be one of the little guys and I'll just service all, like, you know, I'm not going to be able to provide like huge support, but I'll be the budget one. 38:38 Speaker 3 I'll be the budget guy. 38:39 Speaker 3 You know, like anyways, I had this little plan and whatever the source code on one of the chips had been 38:46 Speaker 3 extracted. 38:47 Speaker 3 So the software now is readily available. 38:50 Speaker 3 And so the business model of these other two companies had changed. 38:52 Speaker 3 Instead of being very proprietary and kind of closed box, they were now, we provide services and we'll help you and support you in your rollout of it. 38:59 Speaker 3 And I was like, I can't do that. 39:00 Speaker 3 I'm A one-man shop. 39:01 Speaker 3 So I was actually relieved, to be honest. 39:03 Speaker 3 I said, okay, cool. 39:04 Speaker 3 I didn't really want to do this. 39:05 Speaker 3 I just needed something to tell people 39:08 Speaker 3 when I left my job so that they wouldn't sit here and think I was an alien or something, right? 39:13 Speaker 3 But it was more like I knew that this wasn't why I was doing this. 39:17 Speaker 3 was just to kind of keep the, 39:20 Speaker 3 whatever, to answer the questions that people ever asked me. 39:22 Speaker 3 But truly I said, I need to figure out what it was. 39:24 Speaker 3 And so I was reading like extensively. 39:27 Speaker 3 And I used to read before at night, but I would read like a chapter and then go to bed, Yeah. 39:31 Alex Ticer And we're talking about reading the Bible, not reading the Bible software book or something, right? 39:36 Speaker 3 Yep, just the Bible. 39:37 Speaker 3 And I know it sounds kind of elementary because a lot of people are like, yeah, I've done that too. 39:40 Speaker 3 But for some reason, for me at least, like when I was reading, you know, like from chapter, like from the very beginning to the end, 39:47 Speaker 3 It kind of feels different. 39:48 Speaker 3 Like some of Paul's letters are so different. 39:51 Speaker 3 When you read them, I feel like from beginning to end, I'm like, I feel like what he's saying is so much clearer than when you read, you know, Romans chapter 7 and then like Romans chapter 8 and you're just like, oh, they're saying something different. 40:01 Speaker 3 But you're like, well, remember what he was saying in chapter 2. 40:03 Speaker 3 And I think they used to read it all this one thing that it was like crazy when I'm like, oh, I feel like there's a lot of continuity actually to this. 40:10 Speaker 3 But anyways, so there was so much to me. 40:12 Speaker 3 Like I was like, oh, this is incredible. 40:14 Speaker 3 It was like so. 40:15 Speaker 3 incredible. And I was mostly reading the gospels. I was just going over and over and it's crazy how much that was there. I was like, I've read these my whole life and yet there's so much to draw out in this. And so yeah, there's a lot to that period of my life. So this was almost a two year period where I joke sometimes that like I was the nut up in my room 40:36 Speaker 3 Just reading. I wasn't scribbling on the walls, but I always joke, like the guy who's got all the little connecting dots and the weird stuff, because there were so many things. 40:45 Alex Ticer Beautiful minds. 40:46 Speaker 3 Yeah, right. Like I wasn't doing that, but I like to joke about that because I was just like, babe, check this out. Like, you know, when Jesus was saying this, like it kind of sounds like it contradicts this because there was a part of me to be honest was like, I know God's real, but like, maybe it's not the Bible. Maybe this isn't the right one, right? But I'm like, dude, this is crazy. This fits. It's like perfect. There's no contradict. 41:06 Speaker 3 there's so many of these that I think I just kind of. 41:08 Alex Ticer And you have an engineer's analytic mind, so you're definitely trying to bring harmony or expose contradictions, one or the other. 41:19 Speaker 3 Right. I'm like, if this is the word of God, I mean, it won't be confusion. It won't be kind of like, hey, it's close enough. I was like, no, I can die on this. And that's really where I was getting to where I go, I'm like all in, like, dude, what Jesus is saying fits with this. What Paul is saying fits with Jesus. You know, it's like incredible where I'm like, this is exciting 41:36 Speaker 3 because I'm not just believing a fairy tale. I'm like, this is real. And the God that healed me is the God here in this Bible. It's crazy to be like, we found him. What a crazy thing. And so I remember Jesus, that parable when he said, the guy finds the kingdom of God and it's like that treasure in a field, he sells all that he has and he buys that field. And I'm like, that's kind of how I felt. I was like, this is crazy. This is exciting. This is powerful. This is 42:06 Speaker 3 me that like there's so much that I get was right in front of me, but I didn't value it. Like now I'm valuing it. So yeah, so I was on fire. My dad used to joke. He'd say, oh, there goes Alex. He's preaching again. You know, so I just get all excited. Oh yeah. But anyways, I'll fast forward to a bit where 42:27 Speaker 3 I had an aunt who I would talk to. I was talking to all kinds of family. A lot of my family were believers, so they'd get kind of excited too, actually. They'd be like, hey, yeah, all right. And we're chatting it up. And I had a distant uncle one time, he goes, he was giving me the dirtiest look one time. And he's like, and I was talking about how, you know, God can give us good things, you know, but we can also suffer. You know, John the Baptist has his head cut off. I think most of Jesus' disciples, except John, like died a pretty gruesome death. His own beloved son, you know, was killed on a cross, you know, and he was getting like that. Anyways, and he looks it up, he's like, I was getting kind of angry about what you 42:57 Speaker 3 what you said is true. I looked it up right now. Why didn't no one tell me this? I don't know, but it's crazy, right? And he still loved them. He still loved John the Baptist. He still loved the disciples. He still loved his son. So I was like, yeah, it's kind of weird when bad things happen. This doesn't mean like you stink or you're not doing God's will. You know, like I think I had that when I was going through this, you know, the possibility of having this disease. I thought, oh, this is judgment. He's angry with me. He doesn't love me. You know, and it's like, no, this isn't it. You know, I think even Elisha died of a sickness, you know. So 43:27 Speaker 3 Anyways, stuff like this, but I had an aunt and she tells me, I'm kind of witnessing to her and she tells me, this little God thing, dying, like a pathetic little whatever on a tree, that sounds like the craziest thing I've ever heard. And she wasn't a believer. She didn't read her Bible or anything. And I said, I've never heard it put so vulgarly, but I kind of said, okay, you know what? Like you're kind of like on the fence here because you're saying Jesus was a nice guy and a good teacher. 43:57 Speaker 3 but then you kind of are saying how crazy this is. And I said, I need to kind of just point it out to you and really force you to make a decision. I was like, you gotta really like decide because either Jesus is God as he said he was, which is what I thought at the time. That's what I believed. And I thought, and I was saying, I was like, yeah, there's somewhere where, you know, someone says to him, you being a man, make yourself God. And he says, it's not Jesus. 44:20 Speaker 3 said, I thought that's what it said. And so I said, he either is what he said he is, or he's a liar. He's A deceptive man. And he was saying that he was claiming to be God when he wasn't. 44:30 Speaker 3 And that would be kind of evil. I don't think like you should say he was a good teacher if he was trying to get people to worship him as God if he wasn't. And then I said the other thing, I'm like, or he was a lunatic, right? He was crazy. He thought it was true, but he was like delusional. And so I'd say, I'm not sure I'd call him a good teacher either. I'd say, you know, hey, dude, the guy meant well, but he was really off his rocker. So I pretty much laid it out there and she said, fine, whatever, you go find it. And next time we talk, you know, we'll see or whatever. So 44:56 Speaker 3 I thought it'd be easy. I said, all right. I wasn't going to Google search it or anything. I was just going to read Matthew and find them all. I'm kind of weird like that. I like to, I don't know, just, 45:07 Alex Ticer You want to control the data. You don't want to hearsay. You want to see it for yourself. 45:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. And come to it like organically where like, you know, I feel like someone can tell you and provide proof and it can sound persuasive online. But like you're saying kind of as you're reading through it, I also would be like, you know, 45:24 Speaker 3 could someone argue against this? And so I remember, I think it was like Matthew, I think it's Matthew 9 where the paralytic and he heals them. And it's like, who can forsake give sins but God? And I remember kind of sitting here like in my head even like, wow, but he gives this authority to his disciples later. 45:39 Speaker 3 they kind of recognize that God had given his power to man. And I was like, and it's not like he says, just says it. Like, so I was like, she might argue against it. Not that I still thought it meant what it meant, right? Like, I was like, oh, no, this shows he's God. But I recognized, yeah, she could, you know, I don't want to be like dishonest about this. I want it to be just like bulletproof. I don't want to. 45:58 Alex Ticer Yeah. You were looking for the strongest evidence that you could present that she wouldn't be able to just dismiss and be like, well, 46:07 Alex Ticer Didn't Peter raise somebody from the dead? Or that seems more impressive. Or didn't Jesus say that if you retain the sins of any, they're retained? 46:18 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying. 46:19 Alex Ticer Later he gives that. So yeah, I mean, you're vetting these proof texts on the deity of Christ so that when you go to present them to your aunt, she's going to be blown away. She's going to feel persuaded. 46:31 Alex Ticer Yeah. 46:32 Speaker 3 and it's just like, you got to make a choice. You're either going to say, okay, fine, he's an evil teacher. Like I really was like, you can't straddle the two. And it doesn't mean you have to accept them as God now, but it just means you can't be on the fence with, I think he's a good guy. I kind of like Jesus. I'm like, no, he, you know, one or the other, right? So you're right. That's exactly right. And it was kind of crazy. I went through Matthew, went through Mark, went through Luke. And I was like, man, where is this? Because again, I'm not a pastor, you know, but I'm like, I know there's somewhere where someone says, you being a man, make yourself God. And he says, it's as you said, I'm like, where is this? So I get to John. 47:01 Speaker 3 John's gospel, John 1, but I was like, no, that's not Jesus saying that. That's John saying something. I really wanted it where Jesus said it. Like they said, you know, you're God. And he goes, yep, you know, or he says I'm God, you know, or something like that. So it was John 10, I get there and I go, what? You know, instead of Jesus, you know, they say, you being a man, make yourself God. And instead of Jesus saying, it's as you said, he says, 47:26 Speaker 3 Have you never read, I said you are gods? And he was quoting Psalm 82. And he says, and those who have received the word of God and it cannot be changed, like, why do you say I blaspheme, you know, having been sanctified and sent by the Father, because I said I am the son of God. Like, why am I blaspheming? And I'm sitting here like, well, this isn't at all what I remember. 47:49 Speaker 3 And I'm like, I don't even know what to make of this, to be honest. I'm sitting here like, and I think deep down, I was kind of like, I don't feel like he said he was God here. I feel like he kind of just, he said something else. So I was kind of irritated. I was like, I'm in John 10 now. And I thought this would be so simple. So, you know, I get to the end. 48:08 Alex Ticer I think you're going to find the slam dunk text. 48:10 Speaker 3 Yeah. 48:10 Alex Ticer You know, you got it all lined up. There it is. You know, they said he's God. He's got his moment with the microphone. You know, he lifts it to his lips and he's like, 48:21 Alex Ticer and then it gets complicated, right? Instead of saying, yes, you got me. I am God and your puny stones can't hurt me. He said, well, you know, in the law it says, and you know, if you were gods, then 48:37 Speaker 3 Yep, because I went back to Psalm 82 and I'm reading that and I'm like, oh, God's coming. God, what in the world? Like 48:45 Alex Ticer how am I to explain this to her? Yeah. 48:47 Speaker 3 that's confusing me. So yeah, I sat there kind of irritated and I said, okay, I got there. I got Thomas' thing in John 20 and I said, you know, 48:54 Speaker 3 Yeah, but it's not Jesus. Like I really was like, I was a big fan of man. If Jesus says it, I believe it. And I just like, I'm not a follower of Thomas. I'm not a follower of John. I'm a follower of Jesus. Like I wanted it to be just so clear cut. So I read through him again and it was kind of embarrassing because she asked me more on the call again. Hey, you got that, you know, got a bunch of that stuff. I said, actually, I'm working on it. I didn't tell her that I'd actually read through the gospels already, but I just said I'm working on it. But yeah, I was like a little bit like, okay, I just wasn't paying close enough attention. I missed it. And yeah, that was truly the genesis 49:24 Speaker 3 for this search. And I remember by the second time going through, actually being now not like just kind of annoyed that I couldn't find it, but genuinely as I'm reading now, almost paying attention to these things and saying, a lot of these that I thought were so clear, I'm not so sure. And 49:44 Speaker 3 there are times he is so clear about himself being the Messiah. in John 1, all the proclamations about Jesus, it's like crazy, right? They're all over there like, God, the king, we found the king, the Messiah, the son of God. And I'm going, okay, And then like John 4, and he's saying, yeah, you know, she says, the Samaritan woman, when the Messiah comes, he'll tell us all things. He says, I who speak to you, I'm me. And I'm going like, dude, that's kind of what I'm looking for, you know, Pontius Pilate, are you the king of the Jews? He's like, it's as you said, you know, and what is that? Is it Matthew 26, I think, when the high priest is challenging him, telling us, you know, 50:14 Speaker 3 swear by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. And he's like, it's as you said, and I'm like, that's what I'm looking for. I want that, like that thing where it's like the accusation and the, yeah, it's true. And I was like, this is crazy. I got all these other ones. And it's so clear to me. 50:34 Speaker 3 why isn't he just saying this? Like, I just want to, and again, I was obsessed with the gospels, his words, that I wasn't jumping to like Paul's words or anything or nothing. I was just like, no, I want him to have said this. And that was, yeah, I think the beginning of the thought where, and I don't remember even how that started, but it was like, is it possible that Jesus never said this? And that was kind of scary. And again, I don't want to keep 51:02 Speaker 3 excluding Becky, we share like everything. We're so close. But this was another one of these things where I thought, I'm not gonna share this like heresy, this like evil seed that's been planted in my mind. I was like, I'm gonna have to figure this out. Like I'm gonna have to go through this and solve it. And yeah, no, I couldn't. I couldn't. And at some point, 51:20 Speaker 3 I got, I was like, I'm not just now thinking he didn't say it. He's saying other things, John 20, 17, when he's saying, I'm ascending to my father and your father, my God and your God, right? And I'm going, man, John 17, three, when he's saying, this is eternal life that they know you, the only true God in Jesus Christ, you ascend. John 8, 40, when he's saying, I am a man who's told you the truth that I heard from God. And I'm going, oh, dude, there are so many things now that I'm like, I think the Father alone is God. I think he is this Messiah, the Son of God, but not God. 51:49 Speaker 3 I have this in my heart and I'm saying, boy, what do I do with this? What do I do with this? 51:54 Alex Ticer At this stage, how worried were you about coming to the wrong conclusion? Presumably you thought, belief that Jesus is God was salvational and very significant, right? I mean, how did you wrestle with that in your own mind to even give yourself permission to continue down this road? 52:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, because I'm zipping through this. I don't know how many minutes I'm giving this, but I'm like, right. But there was this paradigm shift. I've skipped so many stories. I had this thing at a church and I had to like, you know, here's a bunch of scripture. The guy's yelling at me. He's red and crying. And all of a sudden, I mean, it's crazy. 52:34 Speaker 3 I think we got to 52:39 Alex Ticer hear about that one. A red-faced preacher yelling at you. Why was he so mad? 52:46 Speaker 3 Okay, so before I came to this, again, I'm just sitting in my room like a nut. I'm just reading the scriptures and 52:54 Speaker 3 When I'm sitting up there, again, and I don't want to offend people because everyone's coming from different places, but I grew up, once saved, always saved. And I heard that and I thought, sure, sounds good, whatever. Like I didn't challenge things really. I just said, you know what, it sounds good. You show me a verse and 53:10 Speaker 3 But I guess the problem was we go to this church and we started this little Bible study or whatever. It wasn't a Bible study. It was about some other book. And he's kind of like, yeah, I've been preaching this. And that kind of was my red flag, like preaching this, book, like, you know, for the last whatever. And it wasn't the main pastor. It was an associate pastor or something there. 53:25 Speaker 3 So anyways, he's going through this thing and I email him because we're going through this book and I'm kind of like, man, this guy's saying some wild stuff here. You know, he's kind of like, in my opinion, I'm like, I think he's telling us that we can just keep sinning all we want. And at this point now, I've been reading through a lot of, you know, the scriptures and being like, I mean, in my mind, I was still like, yeah, you're saved, but at the very least, you're not to keep sinning, man. You can't be like saying, I follow Jesus and doing all this stuff, right? So I kind of was like, you know, emailing him because he wouldn't answer. 53:54 Speaker 3 answer his phone or anything. But so I sent him an email and I said, dude, can we talk? Because I kind of feel like this book might be saying some things. And so in my mind, what I thought was this book, he doesn't realize, this pastor doesn't realize what this book, what the author is actually really trying to get at here, what he's really saying. Because there was another part where I think he was blaming God for himself having an affair. I was like, look, he's basically saying God made him do this thing. And I go, but the scriptures tell us, right? God doesn't tempt anyone, nor is he tempted, right? Like I'm like, he doesn't make you sin. Like you, of your own flesh did this thing. Like you're just 54:24 Speaker 3 making up weird excuses, right? But anyways, so he wouldn't, he wouldn't meet. He's like, no, We'll talk about it in the big group. I was like, dude, I think it'll be controversial. I don't, my position is maybe against what the author is saying. And he goes, no, it'll be fine. I'm like, I think it's always better to meet in person privately, because then there's no pride, right? And he goes, dude, I'm just telling you, I'm busy or something. We'll just do it there. 54:50 Speaker 3 And in my heart, I said, I think he just wants the authority of the thing to kind of push it down, all the people and I'm like, boy. And my wife goes, don't do it. I love her. She's a faithful, godly woman. But we loved, they were so loving to us. They were so great. Like, you know, I kind of understood what she's saying. I'm like, you know, I don't want to. And she goes, well, like, don't. I'm like, but here's the thing though. I really feel like I've been saved 55:20 Speaker 3 for a reason. Like there's a reason. And I go, this doesn't seem like a debatable thing to me. There's too many passages, Galatians 5, right? Like, dude, here's the works of the flesh. If you're doing these things, you don't enter the kingdom of God. I'm going, this is a far cry from what they're saying, which is, dude, you can keep having adultery all the time. I'm like, you know, this is getting kind of weird. So I'm like, he needs to know, because I don't think he knows. Well, I get in the class. And the guy, for sure, he doubles down on it. Like he even took it further, because I thought, again, there was confusion. Like he didn't understand what his book was saying. No, not only did he 55:49 Speaker 3 what it was saying. He's affirming it in the strongest degree. And yeah, and that's when we were talking and he's getting pretty wild and he's saying things and like, how dare you limit the grace of God? and I'm like, I'm like, I'm not trying to do anything. I'm just quoting some scriptures here, you know, when I'm like, dude, and he goes, he whom the son sets free is free indeed. And I go, amen. But look what Jesus said right before that. He goes, he who commits sin is a slave to sin and slaves do not abide in the house, but only sons. Therefore, whom the son sets free is free indeed. I go, 56:19 Speaker 3 So if I'm keeping in sin, if I'm continuing in sin, I'm a slave to sin and slaves don't abide in the house. Jesus therefore has set me free from sin, not free to sin, right? And I was like, this seems so clear. And he's sitting there getting real, real now red and mad. And he's like, I can hate my brother for every minute, for every second, for the rest of my life. And God's grace will cover me in this. And I was like, oh, dude. And I mean, he's yelling and I'm barely whispering now. Like first John, I don't remember now what the exact verse was, but I said, dude, in first John, he says, if you say you love 56:49 Speaker 3 God, but hate your brother. You're a liar and the truth is not in you. I go, I'm just saying that. And he's like now crying and this and like, I'm like, I don't even know where to go. And I'm like, Oh, it was so wild. And I was like, how about 1 Corinthians chapter 5? He's like, shut up, be quiet, no more from you. So it ends. And you know, it was even crazier. There's about three families that came up to me afterwards and are like, what are all those scriptures? I want to know the rest of those. 57:16 Speaker 3 So I felt like, what? This is why God had me here, is to tell these people. I said, and I thought, dude, these people got some stones because they're doing it in front of him. You know, they're probably gonna get in trouble now or whatever it is. But I thought, here I am, this was why. And I felt like now I understand why I was supposed to do this. 57:33 Speaker 3 And so afterwards, poor Becky, she didn't even want to be there. She was like, I'm not even going to sit through that. She comes to me and goes, did it go? And she's like, oh boy, it went bad, Because no one was like talking to me or whatever. And then I just said, yeah, it's pretty bad and all this stuff. So that would be like an example of where I felt like God was in my mind, not, you know, like these were examples of like where I needed to take a stand. Am I going to stand on the word of God? Or am I going to just stand on what people have told me, what their pastor says? 58:00 Alex Ticer Yeah, what was your takeaway from that? 58:03 Alex Ticer It was that you should stand, you should stand strong. Is that more your take? 58:09 Speaker 3 No, just like don't 58:11 Alex Ticer for church leadership because they might get red in the face and cry and yell at you. 58:16 Speaker 3 I mean, that was really wild. God helps make it really easy with that. But no, I think there's probably a couple of layers to it. The 1st and probably most important for me was I can't just punt and go, but Pastor so-and-so says. 58:28 Speaker 3 I, because I felt I saw myself dying and coming before the Lord Jesus and my pastor wasn't going to be there. My friends weren't going to be there. It was just going to be me and him. And it was going to be, what do I believe? Like, I can't deny what I believe or don't believe. He'll know. It's like, there's no way that I'm going to sit here and go, oh, yeah, I believe what he says. He's like, no, you don't. No, you don't. So I needed to believe it and by the scripture. So that was probably the first and the biggest one. And then I think the other one was just that there might be times that I think I'm supposed to speak up. 58:58 Speaker 3 when it's not like convenient, I guess. And again, I wanted to meet with him in private. Like that was what I was thinking, but he wouldn't. And so I felt like, yeah, God's using this as an opportunity to share this with others. 59:09 Speaker 3 And a lot of people were sad. I remember Becky just saying, I can't believe you did that. They loved us. They were going to make you an elder. And you just threw that all away. And I go, yeah, kind of. But again, when you looked at death and dying, the death that I was going to die, this stuff doesn't mean much. I really feel like my brain broke a little bit. I didn't feel the same way about things that I normally would have. I'd say, I get what you're saying, but 59:35 Alex Ticer the acceptance by the community wasn't, overwhelming anymore for you. It was sort of like, acceptance by God's more important and truth is God's truth. So all right, so let's fast forward back to while you're no longer working, you have taken a break from work. 1:00:01 Alex Ticer you're preparing to prove the deity of Christ to your aunt. 1:00:05 Alex Ticer And you're saying, well, maybe the gospel, the gospels don't teach the deity of Christ at all. 1:00:14 Alex Ticer What happened next in that sequence of events? 1:00:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, so I'm fast forwarding it, but you were totally right about, I believe this was salvation. 1:00:20 Speaker 3 So this wasn't a small thing. 1:00:21 Speaker 3 I mean, I think I was like looking for this for about a year. 1:00:24 Speaker 3 At some point, I then finally started reading Paul's letters. 1:00:27 Speaker 3 Then I thought maybe there's contradictions in the scriptures. 1:00:29 Speaker 3 There actually isn't. 1:00:31 Speaker 3 They're saying all the same thing. 1:00:32 Speaker 3 It was really wild where I sat there and it was like a real thing. 1:00:35 Speaker 3 Like I had my lists, my verses, this, that, like, so I'm skipping all that. 1:00:39 Speaker 3 It was a lot. 1:00:40 Speaker 3 But at some point I did come to it and I said, this seems actually not just like a possibility. 1:00:45 Speaker 3 This seems not just like a maybe, this is like, this seems so sure and confident or certain to me. 1:00:51 Speaker 3 What I guess I was struggling with is how is it that nobody else maybe believes, why have I never heard this before? 1:00:55 Speaker 3 There was that in my mind. 1:00:58 Speaker 3 But I'll admit what I'm about to say is to my shame again, because what happened was I came to believe this, but you mentioned I'm not working. 1:01:09 Speaker 3 I'm still not working for two years. 1:01:10 Speaker 3 There were family, there were people saying that Becky should leave me. 1:01:14 Speaker 3 look at this guy. 1:01:15 Speaker 3 He's worse than an unbeliever. 1:01:16 Speaker 3 And I always put the little asterisk. 1:01:17 Speaker 3 We still had a house that was like paid for. 1:01:19 Speaker 3 We had cards. 1:01:19 Speaker 3 You know, my girls were going to private school. 1:01:21 Speaker 3 Like my wife didn't have to work at all. 1:01:23 Speaker 3 Like I always want to say that because like when people say you weren't working, it sounds like we're destitute and on the streets. 1:01:28 Speaker 3 That's not true. 1:01:29 Speaker 3 But I conceded I seem like a nut job. 1:01:32 Speaker 3 Like I'm not working. 1:01:33 Alex Ticer You weren't working, but you were still providing. 1:01:35 Speaker 3 Yeah, that's how I saw it. 1:01:36 Speaker 3 And I would tell family members that. 1:01:37 Speaker 3 I'm like, dude, your definition of providing is incorrect. 1:01:39 Speaker 3 Like providing is like there's food on the table, there's clothes on their backs. 1:01:42 Speaker 3 There's like this. 1:01:42 Speaker 3 I go, I'm just not working. 1:01:44 Speaker 3 a nine to five in the way that you think. 1:01:45 Speaker 3 But again, I could still pull myself and recognize that, I look crazy. 1:01:50 Speaker 3 And I would always say that. 1:01:51 Speaker 3 Like when she would say her parents said something, I'd say, you know what? 1:01:54 Speaker 3 They're not half wrong. 1:01:56 Speaker 3 Like I get it. 1:01:56 Speaker 3 Like I really see how insane I am. 1:02:00 Speaker 3 Like I've lost like all of the things that make me who I thought I was, like a software engineer, smart guy or whatever, you know, provider, like I'm making all kinds of money, you know, we can do whatever we want. 1:02:10 Speaker 3 And you know, this idea, even America was going through some wild stuff and 1:02:13 Speaker 3 my identity as an American, there was so much that I had, I'd say lost. 1:02:19 Speaker 3 And so I think my heart said, if you tell her this, she will leave you. 1:02:27 Speaker 3 This is one thing we had in common from the beginning was our love for God, our love for Jesus. 1:02:32 Speaker 3 And if you go and say this, like on top of all the stuff I just said, 1:02:40 Speaker 3 Any pastor's gonna tell her, leave this fool. 1:02:42 Speaker 3 Leave this heretic. 1:02:43 Speaker 3 He's poison for your family. 1:02:45 Speaker 3 Save your soul. 1:02:46 Speaker 3 Get gone from this guy. 1:02:48 Speaker 3 So I remember I was going to bed and she was, I think, sleeping with one of the girls. 1:02:52 Speaker 3 It must have been Hannah or something to help her go through the night or something. 1:02:54 Speaker 3 So I was in the bed by myself and I was kind of crying because I felt like conflicted because 1:03:04 Speaker 3 up until this point, I was like, man, if Jesus says it, I believe it like I'm all in. 1:03:08 Speaker 3 And here I was, like, I'm actually gonna bury this thing. 1:03:10 Speaker 3 I'm gonna hide it because the cost is too high. 1:03:14 Speaker 3 She'll leave me and take the girls and I can lose just about everything. 1:03:18 Speaker 3 I'll burn this house to the ground and all that, but not my wife. 1:03:23 Speaker 3 Like, I can't, lose. 1:03:25 Speaker 3 Like, I can't lose my family. 1:03:27 Speaker 3 So as I'm kind of saying this, I don't remember if I was even praying this or whatever. 1:03:31 Speaker 3 I was like, however it was going in my head, 1:03:34 Speaker 3 I heard this, not like an audible voice, it was just in my head, but it was the words of Jesus when he says, will you also leave me? 1:03:42 Speaker 3 And you talk about a dagger in the heart. 1:03:45 Speaker 3 And I was like, oh, man. 1:03:48 Speaker 3 Oh, like, yeah, you're right. 1:03:52 Speaker 3 What am I doing? 1:03:53 Speaker 3 What am I doing? 1:03:54 Speaker 3 And then I heard the words for we, where would we go? 1:03:57 Speaker 3 For yours are the words of eternal life. 1:04:01 Speaker 3 And I just thought, forgive me. 1:04:02 Speaker 3 I was about to just turn my back on you for this. 1:04:07 Speaker 3 And remember, Jesus says, like, if you love mother, father, son, or daughter more than me, you're not worthy of me. 1:04:13 Speaker 3 Like, I'm like, this is the one who gave his life for me. 1:04:16 Speaker 3 And I was about to just like turn my back on him, you know? 1:04:19 Speaker 3 I was like, oh, man. 1:04:20 Speaker 3 So I'm like, where is this? 1:04:21 Speaker 3 Where is this? 1:04:22 Speaker 3 Where is this passage? 1:04:23 Speaker 3 I gotta find it. 1:04:23 Speaker 3 I gotta find this. 1:04:24 Speaker 3 And I was really crying now because now I'm feeling like convicted, I was like, and it's John 6, when he's saying about eat my flesh, drink my blood, and a bunch of his disciples leave him. 1:04:33 Speaker 3 And then he says, he turns to the 12 and says, will you also leave me? 1:04:36 Speaker 3 And that's when then Peter says, where would we go? 1:04:39 Speaker 3 For yours are the words of eternal life. 1:04:42 Speaker 3 And we have come to believe and know that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 1:04:50 Speaker 3 And that was such affirmation for me to be like, look, it's right there. 1:04:55 Speaker 3 This is the truth. 1:04:57 Speaker 3 I cannot deny Jesus. 1:04:59 Speaker 3 And so I got out of the bed real quick. 1:05:01 Alex Ticer That he said, you are the Christ instead of you are God. 1:05:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, you're God. 1:05:05 Alex Ticer That really got your attention in this moment. 1:05:08 Speaker 3 Because this is what I'm saying. 1:05:09 Speaker 3 I'm like, he's the Messiah. 1:05:10 Speaker 3 He's the Christ, the Son of the living God. 1:05:12 Speaker 3 And I felt like the fact that this was the verse that just like cut my heart. 1:05:16 Speaker 3 And then I didn't remember the last part of it. 1:05:18 Speaker 3 I just remember Peter saying, you know, where would we go for years of the words of eternal life? 1:05:22 Speaker 3 And I'm like, this is it. 1:05:23 Speaker 3 I've been hanging on your words, Jesus. 1:05:24 Speaker 3 Like, dude, if you said it, I believe it. 1:05:25 Speaker 3 Like, heaven and earth will pass away, but your words will never pass away. 1:05:29 Speaker 3 And so here I was to read this and then hear his profession again. 1:05:33 Speaker 3 I just thought, God's giving me affirmation. 1:05:35 Speaker 3 This is my son. 1:05:36 Speaker 3 This is the truth about my son. 1:05:38 Speaker 3 And before I changed my mind, I jumped out of the bed real quick because I knew my heart this was not going to be easy. 1:05:43 Speaker 3 I almost need to do this quick before I convinced myself not. 1:05:47 Speaker 3 So I go running and funny enough, Becky was still awake. 1:05:51 Speaker 3 I tell her, probably in the worst possible way you could ever imagine. 1:05:54 Speaker 3 I just like, in tears, like, look like a fool again. 1:05:57 Speaker 3 I'm not working. 1:05:58 Speaker 3 I'm so pathetic. 1:05:59 Speaker 3 Like, if you were to think of how society holds a man, I'm like, 1:06:04 Speaker 3 I'm not working. 1:06:05 Speaker 3 I'm pathetic. 1:06:05 Speaker 3 Now I'm crying. 1:06:06 Speaker 3 I'm like, you know, it's like, dude, you're disgusting. 1:06:08 Speaker 3 Get away from me, right? 1:06:09 Speaker 3 No. 1:06:09 Speaker 3 But I tell her, I say, like, I think the Father alone is God. 1:06:15 Speaker 3 I think Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. 1:06:17 Speaker 3 And she's like, what are you saying? 1:06:18 Speaker 3 You know? 1:06:19 Speaker 3 And I kept having to re-say it more clearly and more clearly. 1:06:21 Speaker 3 And she was just like, okay, well, that's wrong. 1:06:24 Speaker 3 But, you know, we'll talk about it tomorrow. 1:06:26 Speaker 3 And here I was thinking, oh man, the enemy, the enemy will build these huge things in your mind. 1:06:33 Speaker 3 And I was convinced she was going to say, I'm done. 1:06:36 Speaker 3 I'm done. 1:06:37 Speaker 3 I don't want to even hear another word. 1:06:40 Speaker 3 I've heard enough. 1:06:41 Speaker 3 I'm out of here. 1:06:42 Speaker 3 But that wasn't it at all. 1:06:43 Speaker 3 She was so down. 1:06:45 Speaker 3 So she just says, and God is so good. 1:06:47 Speaker 3 She's just like, let me help you. 1:06:49 Speaker 3 And I'm like, you know what? 1:06:50 Speaker 3 Actually, 1:06:52 Speaker 3 Maybe I do need help because you mentioned this is a big deal that a part of me thought I never wanted to go to you because I was afraid this would be like a poison little seed in your head, but you seem to be handling this so well. 1:07:03 Speaker 3 I was kind of excited. 1:07:05 Speaker 3 I was like, yeah, let's go through it because I don't really like where I feel like alone in this. 1:07:10 Speaker 3 So anyways, we started going through the gospels. 1:07:12 Speaker 3 We started in Matthew and we're reading every night. 1:07:13 Speaker 3 We've been reading for 1:07:15 Speaker 3 It's almost been 10 years now every night, but we had decided to be focused on this. 1:07:20 Speaker 3 Like this was what we'll read. 1:07:21 Speaker 3 When we read, we're gonna read about, you know, the gospels and see how and when Jesus, you know, declares himself as God. 1:07:29 Speaker 3 And I said, but I'm gonna point out the things that I think I found, but then why they might not be, you know? 1:07:34 Speaker 3 And I just said, like, if that's fair. 1:07:35 Speaker 3 And she goes, yeah, absolutely. 1:07:36 Speaker 3 And so we did that. 1:07:38 Speaker 3 And we got to John and we ended it. 1:07:39 Speaker 3 And you know, it was crazy. 1:07:40 Speaker 3 Because like John 3.16, right? 1:07:42 Speaker 3 For God so loved the world that he gave us his 1:07:45 Speaker 3 only begotten son, right? 1:07:46 Speaker 3 Like there are so many passages I remember even that I didn't focus on that all of a sudden she was reading and was like, the distinction between them. 1:07:56 Speaker 3 And it was crazy how she came to it and was like, I see it. 1:08:00 Speaker 3 And I was like, oh, again, it took us months. 1:08:03 Speaker 3 I don't know how many months, but months, right? 1:08:05 Speaker 3 Like we don't, you're not going to read through all the gospels in one night or whatever. 1:08:08 Speaker 3 So I don't remember how many nights it took us, but it was like months, but I couldn't believe it. 1:08:11 Speaker 3 I was like, wait, 1:08:12 Speaker 3 Wait, you're seeing this too. 1:08:14 Speaker 3 Like, this is crazy. 1:08:15 Speaker 3 And so yeah. 1:08:15 Speaker 3 And then she eventually tells me, we had a new pastor at this point, not the one I told you about. 1:08:18 Speaker 3 I was red and all that. 1:08:19 Speaker 3 We went to another church, but she goes, you need to tell him. 1:08:22 Speaker 3 I was working on some software stuff for them. 1:08:24 Speaker 3 So I said, you're right. 1:08:25 Speaker 3 I didn't want to tell him because I knew they would say I'm a heretic and I'd lose this whole project I'm working on with them. 1:08:30 Speaker 3 But I said, you're right. 1:08:31 Speaker 3 So I reached out to him. 1:08:32 Speaker 3 He sent some stuff. 1:08:33 Speaker 3 It was, it was, it was, I was really disappointed. 1:08:37 Speaker 3 Becky was too. 1:08:38 Speaker 3 We were both like, wait, 1:08:41 Speaker 3 give us the good stuff. 1:08:43 Speaker 3 Where's the thing? 1:08:43 Speaker 3 Because I think deep down, we were still like, this must be true, but we're just confused, beyond confused. 1:08:49 Speaker 3 Like we need the guidance. 1:08:51 Speaker 3 And so when he kind of did his whole thing, like he was like, are you a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness? 1:08:56 Speaker 3 Are you a whatever? 1:08:57 Speaker 3 I was like, nobody talked to me. 1:08:58 Speaker 3 I don't know these guys. 1:08:59 Speaker 3 Like, I don't care if they're all wrong too. 1:09:01 Speaker 3 They could all be wrong. 1:09:02 Speaker 3 But I go, just because they're wrong doesn't mean you're right. 1:09:05 Speaker 3 I need you to just give me the truth, like the word of God, like simple. 1:09:08 Speaker 3 Just show me where it says this, rather than showing me how all these other guys are wrong. 1:09:12 Speaker 3 Like I don't, I have no interest in that because I'm not a Jehovah. 1:09:15 Speaker 3 None of these guys talk to me about it, right? 1:09:17 Speaker 3 So that was really irritating and frustrating and disappointing, I think, to say the least, because I guess you just assume like they would have the scriptures and I, you know, I should be more kind because I bet he had never had to maybe even defend this or explain it or something. 1:09:33 Speaker 3 So 1:09:35 Speaker 3 But so then we went online with Francis Chan and a couple others, I guess. 1:09:39 Speaker 3 And he's like, it's kind of a mystery. 1:09:43 Speaker 3 And I'm like, no, that's not the answer I want to hear. 1:09:48 Alex Ticer And were you thinking, I really would love to come back into the majority camp at this point. 1:09:54 Alex Ticer You're not belligerent. 1:09:55 Alex Ticer You're just like, hey, I kind of studied my way out of this. 1:09:59 Alex Ticer And be happy to come back into where everybody has circled the wagons. 1:10:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, Almost like I'd walk myself into a corner because again, I'm like, I even let's like, this may be hard to explain, but let's say God is still three persons, but I believe he's just the father alone. 1:10:19 Speaker 3 And that's what I see in the scriptures. 1:10:21 Speaker 3 It does me no good to say, I believe that when I don't, but I see this. 1:10:27 Speaker 3 Because again, when I come before God, he'll know my heart and he'll say, you don't believe that. 1:10:30 Speaker 3 And I'll say, you're right. 1:10:31 Speaker 3 So that's why I need someone to help me see it and say, you're right. 1:10:36 Speaker 3 It is true. 1:10:37 Speaker 3 Not just 1:10:38 Speaker 3 that's what you're saying and that's correct. 1:10:41 Speaker 3 It's true. 1:10:41 Speaker 3 Like I need that because I can't pretend that I believe that. 1:10:45 Speaker 3 So yeah, I was genuinely hoping for not just someone to say, here's what you need to believe. 1:10:48 Speaker 3 You must accept it. 1:10:49 Speaker 3 Cause I go, that doesn't help me. 1:10:51 Speaker 3 I need the scriptures. 1:10:51 Speaker 3 I need you to show me in the word of God where it says this clearly, clearly. 1:10:56 Speaker 3 Like again, I think that like anyone can show maybe one verse and go, didn't you get it dummy? 1:11:00 Speaker 3 And you're just like, no, The totality of scripture. 1:11:02 Speaker 3 And this is a huge thing for me, obviously. 1:11:05 Speaker 3 I was like, dude, knowing God is a massive thing. 1:11:08 Speaker 3 I was like, again, so I think you did a good job of mentioning that because I didn't do it justice. 1:11:13 Speaker 3 Well, you could probably tell by the way I talked to my aunt. 1:11:16 Speaker 3 Like, I'm like, you need to know. 1:11:17 Speaker 3 Like, if Jesus is God, you need to accept that. 1:11:20 Speaker 3 You can't just pretend, you know, hey, you know, maybe whatever. 1:11:24 Speaker 3 It's like, if God's three in one, you need to come to that. 1:11:26 Speaker 3 Like, it was a big thing for me. 1:11:27 Speaker 3 Yeah. 1:11:28 Alex Ticer So after this pastor failed to provide evidence that was convincing, 1:11:34 Alex Ticer Did you get back to your aunt and just say, look? 1:11:39 Alex Ticer Like, dude, that's not God or like. 1:11:42 Speaker 3 I don't want to spoil what's going to happen next, but it was later on that I then finally called her and I said, you know, Laurel, do you remember this conversation we had like a long time? 1:11:54 Speaker 3 It was like years. 1:11:55 Speaker 3 And she's like, not really. 1:11:57 Speaker 3 And I go, well, I'm going to give you a huge compliment because I owe you an apology. 1:12:02 Speaker 3 Even though I think you said it in the most vulgar way possible, and I don't think you did it because you knew truth, you don't read the Bible, but I said, I said stuff that wasn't true, and I almost owe you an apology because of the challenge you presented forced me to really own what I thought was true and came to see it wasn't. 1:12:21 Speaker 3 So she loved getting a compliment. 1:12:23 Speaker 3 she probably didn't really understand what I was getting at. 1:12:25 Speaker 3 But when I explained to her, I was like, yeah, I believe that the Father alone is God and that Jesus is just a human, his son, you know, the Messiah, that she's just like, that's great. 1:12:33 Speaker 3 You know, what was that part about me being right again? 1:12:35 Speaker 3 You know? 1:12:37 Speaker 3 But yes, I did tell her. 1:12:38 Alex Ticer So let's draw our conversation to an end here and we'll do a part 2 where we can hear about your incredible odyssey. 1:12:48 Alex Ticer of trying to find a community where you could fit in with this unusual belief. 1:12:54 Alex Ticer And we could do that next time. 1:12:55 Alex Ticer But thanks for sharing today. 1:12:57 Alex Ticer Appreciate it. 1:12:58 Speaker 3 Yeah, thanks, Ron. 1:13:04 Sean Finnegan Well, that brings this interview to a close for this week. 1:13:07 Sean Finnegan We'll pick up part 2 next week. 1:13:09 Sean Finnegan What did you think? 1:13:10 Sean Finnegan Come on over to restitudio.org and find episode 664, Engineer Risked Everything to Find the One God and leave your comments, questions, and feedback there. 1:13:20 Sean Finnegan On last week's episode, 663, The Trinity Now a Minority Belief in America with Dustin Smith, Jesse H. 1:13:27 Sean Finnegan wrote in on Spotify saying, Deconstructing Oneness Pentecostal here. 1:13:32 Sean Finnegan I don't know where I'll land with my belief in God, but I doubt it will be in the belief in the Trinity. 1:13:39 Sean Finnegan So this is a group of people that I don't really hear much from on Restitudio podcast and that is the oneness or modalist people. 1:13:50 Sean Finnegan So I'm really glad to hear that Jesse is listening and that Jesse is considering 1:13:55 Sean Finnegan another form of Unitarianism, apart from Jesus is the one true God to the Father is the one true God and Jesus is his human son, just like Adam was a human son of God. 1:14:10 Sean Finnegan Jesus is a human son of God. 1:14:12 Sean Finnegan And so I wish you the best, Jesse, in your quest to figure things out. 1:14:17 Sean Finnegan May I recommend an episode to you? 1:14:19 Sean Finnegan Check out episode 457, which is called From Oneness to One with J. 1:14:24 Sean Finnegan Dan Gill. 1:14:25 Sean Finnegan He's an old-time oneness preacher who changed his mind on this very thing. 1:14:31 Sean Finnegan And I think you might benefit from hearing his thoughts on the subject. 1:14:35 Sean Finnegan So once again, that's episode 457, From Oneness to One. 1:14:39 Sean Finnegan And again, I wish you the best in your quest of discovery. 1:14:44 Sean Finnegan Now on YouTube, we ended up with 1:14:47 Sean Finnegan an immense number of comments. 1:14:49 Sean Finnegan This is really kind of unprecedented in Restitudio YouTube history. 1:14:56 Sean Finnegan The episode has received over 2,600 views in the last week and 216 likes which is all fabulous. 1:15:06 Sean Finnegan That's not necessarily unprecedented those numbers although it is very high for our channel. 1:15:12 Sean Finnegan But what's really fascinating is the fact that in one week's time, this episode has garnered 792 comments. 1:15:22 Sean Finnegan So I'm not really sure what to say about that other than we might have tapped into a nerve with that one, saying that the Trinity is a minority. 1:15:30 Sean Finnegan And when I was interviewing Dr. 1:15:32 Sean Finnegan Smith on this subject, I was thinking, man, this is just such an incredible conclusion from the data. 1:15:39 Sean Finnegan This just seems 1:15:42 Sean Finnegan Too good to be true. 1:15:43 Sean Finnegan And I think a lot of other people must have felt that way too. 1:15:47 Sean Finnegan But the data is the data. 1:15:49 Sean Finnegan I mean, he has this little informal survey among Christology scholars. 1:15:54 Sean Finnegan And then there's the Barna survey and the Ligonier survey. 1:15:57 Sean Finnegan I mean, look, this is all data, okay? 1:16:01 Sean Finnegan And you can say, oh, well, the churches are really Trinitarian, even though the people don't know it. 1:16:09 Sean Finnegan That seems to be what the case is. 1:16:11 Sean Finnegan which I think is fine. 1:16:13 Sean Finnegan That's just fine with me. 1:16:14 Sean Finnegan But anyhow, let me read out. 1:16:15 Sean Finnegan Obviously, I can't respond to all these comments, but I'll read out a few here and give some responses. 1:16:21 Sean Finnegan Tim wrote in, thank God our American forefather presidents didn't believe in the Catholic Trinity. 1:16:27 Sean Finnegan They knew better. 1:16:29 Sean Finnegan Well, Tim, that's an interesting point you bring up. 1:16:31 Sean Finnegan There are a number of American founding fathers 1:16:36 Sean Finnegan like John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, who did not believe in the Trinity, maybe some others too. 1:16:44 Sean Finnegan Thomas Jefferson is the more complicated one because it seems like he might have been more of a deist anyhow, and deism was all the rage in the late 1700s, early 1800s. 1:16:55 Sean Finnegan But to me, that's still a Unitarian. 1:16:58 Sean Finnegan It's not necessarily a biblical Unitarian, but certainly a non-Trinitarian, as you point out. 1:17:04 Sean Finnegan Crystal wrote in saying, when I thought I believed in the Trinity, I didn't know what it really was. 1:17:09 Sean Finnegan But when I dug in to the past and meaning, I instantly said, wait, hold up, it's three gods in one person? 1:17:19 Sean Finnegan And immediately realized I was falling into a cult minefield. 1:17:24 Sean Finnegan Wow, that is something. 1:17:26 Sean Finnegan So I'm not really sure how to take the cult minefield. 1:17:31 Sean Finnegan Is that referring to the Trinitarian defenders or to those who do not believe in the Trinity? 1:17:36 Sean Finnegan I think it's probably best just to avoid the C word unless we're talking about high control groups, which is really what I would call a cult, is a group that's trying to control its people 1:17:46 Sean Finnegan way beyond what scripture gives authority for. 1:17:51 Sean Finnegan Yeah, I don't think the C word is actually helpful for anybody that's like close-minded or strict with their beliefs. 1:17:58 Sean Finnegan I think that's just totally up to the people and to the group values. 1:18:03 Sean Finnegan But yeah, it is a really weird statement, right? 1:18:05 Sean Finnegan Three gods in one person. 1:18:08 Sean Finnegan Actually, no, it's three persons in one God. 1:18:11 Sean Finnegan I think, Crystal, you might have had that backwards. 1:18:12 Sean Finnegan Anyhow, be that as it may. 1:18:14 Sean Finnegan Moving on, EK writes in saying, I never believed in the Trinity. 1:18:19 Sean Finnegan Unfortunately, it's a doctrine that has left me and others completely isolated because no one wants to fellowship with a heretic. 1:18:27 Sean Finnegan Yes, sad to say, but there is an incredible stigma, exclusion, and sometimes even persecution for those who do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. 1:18:38 Sean Finnegan And this is precisely something that our movement is trying to change. 1:18:42 Sean Finnegan We're trying to challenge people to restore authentic Christianity and live it out today. 1:18:47 Sean Finnegan How can we do that? 1:18:49 Sean Finnegan Well, we go back to what the Bible says. 1:18:51 Sean Finnegan And as it turns out, the Bible doesn't talk about the Trinity at all. 1:18:56 Sean Finnegan So that should be our standard for treating people as insiders or outsiders. 1:19:01 Sean Finnegan 79 David said, regarding debates, specifically the one with James White, I am new to biblical Unitarianism in the last five months. 1:19:09 Sean Finnegan I can say to be able to see your arguments versus his arguments was really helpful. 1:19:15 Sean Finnegan As well, I can see how smug and arrogant he was compared to you, Dustin. 1:19:20 Sean Finnegan The more debates I've watched with Trinitarians, I see that there is a general arrogance and smugness that repulses me. 1:19:27 Sean Finnegan The Unitarians I've been listening to seem to be much more respectful and humble and honest. 1:19:33 Sean Finnegan God bless and keep up the good work. 1:19:36 Sean Finnegan And interesting, that comment right there by David with a T, or David T, I should say, garnered 91 replies. 1:19:44 Sean Finnegan So well done with that comment. 1:19:47 Sean Finnegan I think it's just so common for people holding the Trinity view to look down on those who don't because they are in the majority and they are in some sense historic, depends on what period of history we're looking at. 1:20:02 Sean Finnegan Interestingly enough, if we look at the first two centuries of church history, they're not there. 1:20:07 Sean Finnegan are no Trinitarians. 1:20:08 Sean Finnegan We can't find them. 1:20:09 Sean Finnegan Where are they in the 100s? 1:20:11 Sean Finnegan Where are they in the 200s? 1:20:13 Sean Finnegan Where are they in the 1st century? 1:20:15 Sean Finnegan So we really have to wait till the 300s and into the 300s before we get anything recognizably Trinitarian in its necessary details. 1:20:26 Sean Finnegan So thanks for pointing out this value that biblical Unitarians have of humility. 1:20:32 Sean Finnegan And it is certainly something that we should continue to have, even if the scales are tipping the other way, that we should retain that humility because that's what it means to be like Jesus. 1:20:44 Sean Finnegan Matthew T. 1:20:45 Sean Finnegan Christu, or otherwise translated Disciple of Christ, wrote in, True biblical Christianity is always a minority. 1:20:52 Sean Finnegan The world, including fake Christians, might agree on certain issues at times, but that's irrelevant. 1:20:58 Sean Finnegan it does seem to be that way, Matthew Teese, that the group holding to the biblical view or the authentic expression of that view, like for example, in the prophets, the ones who were refusing idolatry or refusing to take advantage of the poor, they were the remnant. 1:21:17 Sean Finnegan They weren't the majority. 1:21:18 Sean Finnegan The majority often goes astray. 1:21:21 Sean Finnegan But I think it's important to not reject an idea because it's popular 1:21:26 Sean Finnegan or accept an idea because it's popular. 1:21:28 Sean Finnegan An idea's popularity has really very little correlation with its veracity. 1:21:34 Sean Finnegan What we need to do is read the Bible and judge our beliefs against scripture. 1:21:40 Sean Finnegan Morris Pretty wrote in saying, I am a confessional Lutheran and thankfully we have deep theological teaching and my kids are indoctrinated during confirmation. 1:21:51 Sean Finnegan So yes, we believe in the Trinity, celebrate Trinity Sunday and teach and preach on the Holy Trinity. 1:21:59 Sean Finnegan Almost every Sunday we sing hymns with a Trinity stanza where the congregation stands. 1:22:05 Sean Finnegan It is a blessing of God to have deep theological teaching on the God of Scripture. 1:22:10 Sean Finnegan notice the difference when they have visited the churches of evangelical friends. 1:22:15 Sean Finnegan They report back, they don't teach anything. 1:22:17 Sean Finnegan Praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and will be forever. 1:22:24 Sean Finnegan All right, well, there is a nice high church expression of where they're coming from. 1:22:30 Sean Finnegan Of course, the Lutheran Church has been dying out very strongly over the last century. 1:22:37 Sean Finnegan and is projected to continue to diminish, diminish, diminish over time. 1:22:42 Sean Finnegan And it's not the august institution that many Americans used to look to as a leading voice in our society along with the Presbyterian, or at least the higher church versions of Presbyterians, the Methodists and the Episcopalians. 1:23:02 Sean Finnegan These mainline church denominations have been diminishing over time. 1:23:08 Sean Finnegan And evangelicals, especially Pentecostals, are growing, growing, growing. 1:23:14 Sean Finnegan And as well as the Catholics, I think largely due to immigration in the United States, people coming in who are already Catholic are bolstering the Catholic Church. 1:23:22 Sean Finnegan Actually, I'd be curious to see what are the latest stats on these things. 1:23:26 Sean Finnegan But anyhow, the Lutheran point here is to say that their liturgy is so strong that there's every opportunity to teach the children and teach everyone what they believe. 1:23:38 Sean Finnegan I honestly doubt that's true. 1:23:41 Sean Finnegan I don't doubt that this person is 1:23:43 Sean Finnegan very Trinitarian and their kids are as well. 1:23:47 Sean Finnegan But I think a lot of these mainline churches are little more than social clubs these days. 1:23:53 Sean Finnegan So I'm glad to hear that this person is passionate, even if I disagree with what they're passionate about. 1:23:59 Sean Finnegan I think Martin Luther himself would be strongly encouraging this sola scriptura ideal that we are recommending on the Rest Studio podcast and in the restorationist movement. 1:24:12 Sean Finnegan I may end up agreeing with Luther over against Lutherans in some cases. 1:24:18 Sean Finnegan David McBrien writes in, just to help put things in perspective, the Unitarians represent less than 1% of Christianity in America. 1:24:26 Sean Finnegan Pew Research Center. 1:24:28 Sean Finnegan That was a study with a way larger sample group, 35,000, which is a more accurate demographic than 2,100. 1:24:37 Sean Finnegan Okay, so David, we have to point out a couple things here. 1:24:40 Sean Finnegan First of all, 1:24:41 Sean Finnegan Are we talking about Unitarian Universalists? 1:24:44 Sean Finnegan Because if we're talking about Unitarian Universalists, that's a whole different subject. 1:24:50 Sean Finnegan That's not what we're talking about here. 1:24:53 Sean Finnegan The simple fact of the matter is that unless someone is taught the Trinity, by default, that person is a Unitarian. 1:25:02 Sean Finnegan That person is going to recognize that there is only one God. 1:25:07 Sean Finnegan Without the Trinity idea and without that version of teaching the deity of Christ, the majority, I would say at least, are going to be what we would call biblical Unitarians, at least if they're Christian, right? 1:25:21 Sean Finnegan We know that the Jewish faith is Unitarian. 1:25:24 Sean Finnegan The Muslim faith is Unitarian. 1:25:27 Sean Finnegan And Christians who don't believe in the Trinity are Unitarian. 1:25:31 Sean Finnegan That's like the other main option that's there. 1:25:34 Sean Finnegan So we're not talking about affiliation. 1:25:37 Sean Finnegan We're talking about belief. 1:25:39 Sean Finnegan That's what these surveys were getting at. 1:25:41 Sean Finnegan They were asking people in their congregations about what they believe, not what their denomination says they are supposed to believe. 1:25:50 Sean Finnegan And that's a very big difference. 1:25:52 Sean Finnegan Expians wrote in saying, how can Trinity be a minority when Protestant and Catholic make the bulk of Christians in the US? 1:26:01 Sean Finnegan On top of that, they both believe in the Trinity. 1:26:05 Sean Finnegan Well, again, that's because we're talking about people's beliefs. 1:26:08 Sean Finnegan We're not talking about what the church is supposed to teach. 1:26:12 Sean Finnegan We're talking about what people actually believe. 1:26:16 Sean Finnegan And when we do that, people don't believe in the Trinity. 1:26:19 Sean Finnegan The Trinity is a complicated idea, and most people can't articulate it, and most people hold beliefs that are incompatible with the Trinity doctrine. 1:26:28 Sean Finnegan So that's what we're talking about here. 1:26:30 Sean Finnegan Carlos Padron wrote in saying, we have to believe that the Triune God has revealed to us anything else is rebellion. 1:26:38 Sean Finnegan These folks are heretics. 1:26:41 Sean Finnegan Well, that's your opinion. 1:26:44 Sean Finnegan It's your opinion that we're heretics. 1:26:45 Sean Finnegan It's our opinion that you're a heretic. 1:26:47 Sean Finnegan So what good is calling names? 1:26:50 Sean Finnegan Just let's be honest. 1:26:52 Sean Finnegan my mom would raise me better than that. 1:26:54 Sean Finnegan Just calling somebody else an outsider or having a belief that is beyond what is acceptable, that's just not going to be effective. 1:27:03 Sean Finnegan The question is, what does the Bible teach? 1:27:06 Sean Finnegan Is the Trinity there? 1:27:07 Sean Finnegan And if it's not there, then let's ditch it. 1:27:10 Sean Finnegan Look, only 11% of Americans actually believe in the Trinity. 1:27:13 Sean Finnegan That means 89% don't. 1:27:16 Sean Finnegan Hello? 1:27:17 Sean Finnegan Let's wake up. 1:27:18 Sean Finnegan There is no reason for us to own that H word anymore. 1:27:23 Sean Finnegan I'm Orthodox. 1:27:24 Sean Finnegan What about you, listener? 1:27:26 Sean Finnegan Are you Orthodox? 1:27:27 Sean Finnegan Do you think you have the right opinion? 1:27:29 Sean Finnegan I won't own the H word, personally. 1:27:32 Sean Finnegan I don't accept that as a self-designation. 1:27:35 Sean Finnegan I'm not a heretic. 1:27:36 Sean Finnegan I'm aligning myself with what the Bible teaches. 1:27:39 Sean Finnegan And I don't think it's right to call the Bible heresy. 1:27:42 Sean Finnegan Sorry. 1:27:43 Sean Finnegan So I'm ditching the H word. 1:27:45 Sean Finnegan I hope you ditch it too. 1:27:47 Sean Finnegan And stay tuned for next week where we'll hear part 2 of one man's journey, one man's Odyssey. 1:27:55 Sean Finnegan The Odyssey movie is back in the theaters. 1:27:58 Sean Finnegan And let me tell you, it's got nothing on Alex Tycer's journey all over the United States to try to find a community where he could fit in. 1:28:07 Sean Finnegan So I hope you can join me next week for that part of the story. 1:28:10 Sean Finnegan If you would like to support Restitudio, the number one thing you can do is share this episode with others. 1:28:16 Sean Finnegan Please tell others that you think would be interested in this podcast about it. 1:28:21 Sean Finnegan And if you'd like to support us financially, you can certainly do that with a monthly donation at restitudio.org. 1:28:27 Sean Finnegan Thanks so much for listening. 1:28:29 Sean Finnegan I'll catch you next week. 1:28:30 Sean Finnegan And remember, the truth has nothing to fear.