This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 582: Kiwi Farmer Pursues Biblical Truth with Vaughn Madsen This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Audio file 582 Vaughn Madsenn - testimony.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey. 00:01 Sean Finnegan I'm Sean. 00:02 Sean Finnegan And you are listening to restitudio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan Von Madsen was a simple Kiwi farmer who subscribed to evangelical Christianity in New Zealand. 00:18 Sean Finnegan No, he wasn't farming. 00:20 Sean Finnegan The fruit a Kiwi is what you call someone from New Zealand. 00:25 Sean Finnegan Anyhow, like I said, he was a devout member of his local church and a dairy farmer when he came across a presentation by Warren Prestidge about the state of the dead. Although he had always believed his deceased loved ones were in heaven, this presentation. 00:41 Sean Finnegan Provided extensive biblical evidence that the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, are asleep until the resurrection happens at the coming of Christ. 00:51 Sean Finnegan Some time later, his brother prompted him to explore the Trinity. 00:55 Sean Finnegan After looking through the scriptures on that topic, Vaughn concluded that the father of Jesus alone. 01:01 Sean Finnegan Was God still later? He came across Paul Washer's preaching on repentance, and adopted the view that obedience, not just belief. 01:10 Sean Finnegan Was necessary. 01:12 Sean Finnegan At every stage of his journey, he faced resistance, rebuke and rejection. 01:18 Sean Finnegan And still, somehow, he kept going. 01:22 Sean Finnegan Join me as we listen in to Vaughn's incredible journey, pursuing truth, no matter the cost. 01:28 Sean Finnegan Here now is episode 580. 01:30 Sean Finnegan Kiwi farmer pursues biblical truth with von Madsen. 01:33 I. 01:41 Sean Finnegan Welcome von Madsen to. 01:43 Sean Finnegan So glad to talk with you today. 01:45 Vaughn Madsen Yeah. Thanks. 01:46 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, great to be here. And looking forward to hearing. 01:50 Sean Finnegan So let's start off by hearing a little bit about your upbringing and your journey and your Christian background. 01:57 Sean Finnegan Brought you to. 01:59 Sean Finnegan Did you grow up in a Christian home? 02:00 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I was brought up in the North Island. New. 02:03 Vaughn Madsen I was brought up in a family that we went to church every. 02:08 Vaughn Madsen There's never any discussion about going to church. My mom and dad went to a. 02:13 Vaughn Madsen A small Baptist Church. 02:15 Vaughn Madsen I was brought up out in the country, our small church rented a hall and every Sunday we would go and sit the hall up and we had a pastor. My dad was an elder. 02:28 Vaughn Madsen Mum played the piano. 02:29 Vaughn Madsen They were both Sunday school teachers as well, and they taught Bible in school. 02:34 Vaughn Madsen Church is something that right from a young age, I always I don't know whether it was enjoyed, but it was just a part of my life that I didn't want to lose. 02:43 Vaughn Madsen And as I grew up, I left home when I was 16. 02:47 Vaughn Madsen But I never ever stopped going to church. 02:50 Vaughn Madsen I can remember when I was probably 7, I went into the bedroom with mom and we knelt down and I asked Jesus into my heart and I was convinced then that I was a Christian. When I was 17, I got baptized. 03:05 Vaughn Madsen Wanted to get baptized? 03:07 Vaughn Madsen And even when I left home, I was the first thing I would do is is find the church, you know, make sure that every Sunday I was at church because that's where I wanted to. 03:16 Vaughn Madsen Be that I thought that was a a big part of me being a Christian was was going to church every Sunday. 03:22 Sean Finnegan And was that an Anglican church or what kind of church was? 03:25 Vaughn Madsen Baptist Church. 03:26 Sean Finnegan OK. 03:28 Vaughn Madsen Although after I left home, I went to an open brethren church. One of them might have been an Assemblies of God Church. 03:35 Vaughn Madsen Some of them were charismatic. 03:37 Vaughn Madsen Of them. 03:38 Vaughn Madsen Went when I met Sharon and we got, we got married, we were farming. And so the churches that we went to there for a few years were very, very small and no denomination, just like a Community Church. 03:52 Sean Finnegan OK. 03:52 Sean Finnegan So tell us a little bit about how you started questioning the Trinity. 03:56 Vaughn Madsen Well. 03:57 Vaughn Madsen Where my understanding of Christianity began to change was my mum and dad were both sick with cancer at the same time and and dying. 04:07 Vaughn Madsen I was talking to my uncle and he was talking to me about. 04:13 Vaughn Madsen The state of the deep. 04:14 Vaughn Madsen And how, when you're dead, you're not. 04:18 Vaughn Madsen And he actually gave me a video and I. 04:20 Vaughn Madsen It was a VHF video. I think we called them in and it was on a guy talking about the state of the dead and also the fake of the unsafe. I listened to the video and I pulled my Bible out and went through. 04:34 Vaughn Madsen And to me that was very, very different to what I had always believed. 04:39 Vaughn Madsen And a year after, on our first wedding anniversary after we got married, Sharon's my wife's father was killed in a in a plane crash. 04:48 Vaughn Madsen We thought at that stage he was in heaven and then we lost. 04:53 Vaughn Madsen Sharon, Grandad and we would often talk. 04:55 Vaughn Madsen Would be in heaven. 04:57 Vaughn Madsen What wonder what they're? 04:58 Vaughn Madsen They're not sleeping, and that's what we really. 05:01 Vaughn Madsen Never really thought about it too much, but we certainly believe that. 05:06 Vaughn Madsen And when I looked at this video at all the Bible verses and realising that the dead were dead to me it was a quite a big thing. And just as bigger thing was the state or the faith, if you like, of the lost. 05:21 Vaughn Madsen And realising that the lost aren't going to be tortured forever and ever in a fire, that's not going to go out rather than the lost destroyed. 05:32 Vaughn Madsen Death. I guess it was very comforting to me, but it also shook me up that there was these two fundamental things that was quite big. 05:42 Vaughn Madsen I hadn't seen them before, if you like. 05:45 Vaughn Madsen And we had a Bible group. 05:47 Vaughn Madsen At our house that we had started, when we when we bought the farm and which had been running for seven years and often there was over 20 people coming along and I had never spoke and they were looking for, you know, who's going to take next Wednesday night. 06:01 Vaughn Madsen And I said I will. 06:03 Vaughn Madsen And so I wanted to speak about the state of the deed and also the fate. 06:08 Vaughn Madsen The lost. 06:10 Vaughn Madsen And I played this video and none of them believed it at all. 06:14 Vaughn Madsen They were. I guess mocking would be a good word, but they they didn't believe it. 06:18 Vaughn Madsen They just completely wrote the idea off. 06:21 Vaughn Madsen And for me, I was quite shocked at that and that had quite a big effect how I was relating to the people in my Home group, realising that even though. 06:25 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 06:33 Vaughn Madsen And though I clearly it wasn't me, we we played the video, but they just. 06:38 Vaughn Madsen It's not what they'd be brought up with, so they just wasn't. 06:40 Vaughn Madsen Wouldn't even entertain the idea that being a possibility. 06:43 Sean Finnegan And who was that by? 06:45 Sean Finnegan That by Warren prestige. 06:47 Vaughn Madsen I think it was. 06:49 Vaughn Madsen I think it. 06:49 Vaughn Madsen It's a long time ago. 06:50 Sean Finnegan I have his book. 06:52 Sean Finnegan I have his book over here. 06:53 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, yeah. 06:54 Sean Finnegan Life, death and destiny by Warren prestige. 06:58 Vaughn Madsen He had done. 06:59 Vaughn Madsen I think there was a video. He put a video there and we we went through this video and. 07:03 Sean Finnegan No, I love him. He's. 07:05 Sean Finnegan I actually have interviewed him on this podcast before. 07:08 Vaughn Madsen OK, for Sharon, my wife. 07:10 Vaughn Madsen She saw it straight away as well and made perfect sense to her. 07:14 Vaughn Madsen And we realized that, you know, we'd been thinking that her dad was up there in heaven with she'd also lost a sister-in-law and a cousin. 07:23 Vaughn Madsen And we realized now that know that what waiting for the resurrection. 07:27 Vaughn Madsen Was around 2011. 07:29 Sean Finnegan 2011 this was around 2011. 07:30 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, because I, I I remember. My my dad died at the end of 2011. 07:34 Vaughn Madsen Shared it with my. 07:36 Vaughn Madsen He actually believed it as well. 07:38 Vaughn Madsen He could see it and he believed that. And after he died, I remember on the day of his funeral I contacted his pastor to ask him if he would. 07:47 Vaughn Madsen Not saying that. 07:49 Vaughn Madsen My father's up there in heaven. 07:51 Vaughn Madsen He said. Well, that's. 07:52 Vaughn Madsen I was gonna be Speaking of. 07:53 Vaughn Madsen My dad didn't believe it anymore. 07:56 Vaughn Madsen Family certainly doesn't believe. 07:57 Vaughn Madsen We're believing that it's waiting for the resurrection and I kind of threw him quite a bit on the as you can imagine on the morning of the funeral to be told that boy. 08:06 Sean Finnegan So what did he do? 08:08 Vaughn Madsen He was very good and he didn't say that John wasn't given. 08:12 Vaughn Madsen Yeah. So. 08:12 Sean Finnegan A good guy, huh? 08:13 Vaughn Madsen Well, yeah, I I told him that they didn't believe that he was going to heaven when he when he died. And we believe that the second you lose consciousness or the second you die will hear a trumpet fall. 08:25 Vaughn Madsen Whether that's 5 minutes later or or 1000 years later, it makes no difference that you'll hear the trumpet fall and Jesus will be returning. 08:29 Sean Finnegan Yeah, yeah. 08:32 Vaughn Madsen The date will be raised. 08:34 Sean Finnegan Now for you, having grown up believing in heaven, coming to this understanding, really. 08:42 Sean Finnegan Did it show you? 08:43 Sean Finnegan Guess I'll. 08:43 Sean Finnegan This is a. 08:44 Sean Finnegan Did it show you that it's possible to be just like majorly wrong about something? 08:50 Sean Finnegan That made you want to then look at other subjects too. 08:54 Vaughn Madsen Well, yes it did. 08:55 Vaughn Madsen Like I say, Sean, until I been told about it and until I'd actually studied to see what it what was the state of the deed. 09:05 Vaughn Madsen I just presumed because that's what you. 09:08 Vaughn Madsen I've been to several funerals that we, you know, we do have an immortal soul, and we do either go to heaven or hell. 09:16 Vaughn Madsen But as soon as I started to look in the Bible, I could see how wrong I was and how clear the, you know, the teaching is on that particular subject. 09:26 Sean Finnegan So walk me forward to thinking through who Jesus is, what got you into that. 09:32 Sean Finnegan That. 09:32 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, OK, well, after Dada died and my mom had died as well. Shortly after, both from cancer. 09:41 Vaughn Madsen My brother was my elder. 09:44 Vaughn Madsen Craig was questioning a lot of things from the Bible and. 09:49 Vaughn Madsen I can remember him having a conversation with me and he said for me says I'm gonna go back and reevaluate everything that I've that I've learned in the Bible. And he said I'm, I'm even going to check to see. 10:03 Vaughn Madsen If Jesus is God because he said Jesus was praying to the father, he also realized that Jesus God. 10:11 Vaughn Madsen And God cannot die. 10:13 Vaughn Madsen And my my answer to pray at that state was. Well, of course Jesus is God. 10:19 Vaughn Madsen That's what I you know, I I I truly believe so. 10:23 Vaughn Madsen Our conversation, I rang a friend of mine. 10:26 Vaughn Madsen Who trained up to be a pastor of the church, and I respected him a. 10:30 Vaughn Madsen He went to our Bible study for for I think it was about five years, 5 or 6 years and and he did most of the teaching in there. 10:39 Vaughn Madsen I hadn't spoken to him for about a year. 10:41 Vaughn Madsen So I rang him up and I said Simon, I've got a question for you. 10:45 Vaughn Madsen He said. What's that? 10:46 Vaughn Madsen And I said, is Jesus God. And he initially he ****** out laughing. 10:53 Vaughn Madsen And then I I said, well, you know, can you show me from the Bible why Jesus is God? 10:59 Vaughn Madsen And that conversation went for about half an hour, and he asked me for the third time. 11:05 Vaughn Madsen Do you get? 11:06 Vaughn Madsen I said to him. 11:07 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I think I do, bro. 11:08 Vaughn Madsen And we hung up. 11:09 Vaughn Madsen I knew that. 11:12 Vaughn Madsen Page there. 11:13 Vaughn Madsen Maybe this was a big can of worms that I was getting into because everything they they told me what was not biblical and that the language that he was using wasn't. 11:24 Vaughn Madsen Wasn't giving me. 11:26 Vaughn Madsen Clear biblical texts. But he had been to Bible school. 11:32 Sean Finnegan Said. 11:32 Vaughn Madsen He was talking about. 11:34 Vaughn Madsen I went to my wife because I'm not very. 11:36 Vaughn Madsen He was using that word, hyper, hyper, something, union hypostatic. Hyper what? 11:44 Sean Finnegan Static union, yeah. 11:45 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, yeah. 11:46 Vaughn Madsen And words like that trying to explain the dual nature and also hell, the father and son work together, being fully God. 11:56 Vaughn Madsen He was talking like they're in a dance. 11:59 Vaughn Madsen Is so. 12:00 Vaughn Madsen Close. 12:01 Vaughn Madsen At at the end of it I said yeah. 12:03 Vaughn Madsen That that's. 12:04 Vaughn Madsen So I started looking at at the at the Bible for myself, started looking to see if Jesus was God, not why he's God or not. 12:14 Vaughn Madsen Proves that he's God or this proves that he's God, but looking. 12:18 Vaughn Madsen And and and a big thing for me with my new understanding of death was how did Jesus die? 12:25 Vaughn Madsen If he's God, I probably didn't sleep very much for the next couple of days. 12:29 Vaughn Madsen Just. 12:30 Vaughn Madsen I studied and studied. 12:31 Vaughn Madsen Studied and. 12:33 Vaughn Madsen I could see that clearly from the Bible that Jesus was the son of God that. 12:38 Vaughn Madsen He was a human being that had a mother. 12:42 Vaughn Madsen The Trinity wasn't. 12:44 Vaughn Madsen I could see that the Trinity just didn't make any sense to me. At the same time, the church that we we've been going to for about 10 years at that stage and it's quite a big church, is a Church of maybe 3 to 400 people in Cam. 12:59 Vaughn Madsen And I was very good mates with the the pastor. 13:02 Vaughn Madsen I've done a lot of running with them and a lot of running races and cycling, which was quite a big part of my life at that time. 13:08 Vaughn Madsen One at that time, one of the elders stood up at the end of church and and announced to the church that we've got an updated statement of faith, if you like. 13:20 Vaughn Madsen This is what we believe as a church. 13:23 Vaughn Madsen They went through 5 non negotiable and they were the Bible is our. 13:30 Vaughn Madsen It's our. 13:31 Vaughn Madsen They would often often teach and then the next one was. We must believe the Trinity. 13:36 Vaughn Madsen And then we've got God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 13:41 Vaughn Madsen And he said, we've got to believe all those five things. 13:44 Vaughn Madsen Not allowed to study them. 13:47 Vaughn Madsen And the the non negotiable, that was the words that he used that said this elder. 13:51 Vaughn Madsen So this was only days at most weeks after I come to realize that God was not a. 13:59 Vaughn Madsen So I went to see the elder straight after the church service and I said to him, look, I've just very recent times. 14:08 Vaughn Madsen Looked at the Trinity to see if it was the truth, and I said I've spent a lot of time praying, spend a lot of time trying to understand it. The best I can than the Bible. 14:17 Vaughn Madsen And I said, I don't believe it. 14:19 Vaughn Madsen I don't believe it's biblical and he just about fell over and he said he would like to come for a visit at our place. And I said that's fine. And so he came out with another elder. 14:23 Sean Finnegan Boy. 14:31 Vaughn Madsen They were the two probably head elders of the church. 14:35 Vaughn Madsen And both men that I knew very well because we've been apart of their church for 10 years. 14:40 Vaughn Madsen Yes, they bought a big thick book out and I don't even know what the. I couldn't tell you what the book is now, but I had to read the big, big book and that was going to show me that God's a Trinity and they left and they. 14:53 Vaughn Madsen Like to come back in a week. 14:56 Vaughn Madsen After I've read this book thick book and I said to Sharon, there's only one book that I'm interested in and that's the Bible. 15:01 Vaughn Madsen I said if they're going to show me that. 15:03 Vaughn Madsen 'S a Trinity. It's got to be from the Bible, not not a big, thick book of somebody's interpretation of what the Bible says. 15:11 Yeah. 15:11 Vaughn Madsen At the same time, Sharon, she was 100% convinced in her mind that the Trinity was the truth. 15:18 Vaughn Madsen 'Cause she'd been brought up in in the church as well, and she was an office lady there for two days. And the week she she would go and do office work at the church. 15:28 Vaughn Madsen Voluntary work. 15:29 Vaughn Madsen And so these elders came to her and said that, you know, this is pretty serious. 15:34 Vaughn Madsen What we're dealing with. 15:37 Vaughn Madsen That she would have to support them and help them to show me how wrong I was. 15:43 Vaughn Madsen They came back in in a week and Sharon knew it wasn't going to go well. So we our kids at that stage were about 11:11. 15:51 Vaughn Madsen Very keen and I think Kayla was maybe four years old. 15:54 Oh. 15:55 Vaughn Madsen So Sharon took them down to the other end of the house. The two elders set me down and said, well, you know, have you got on with the book? 16:02 Vaughn Madsen And I said I haven't. 16:05 Vaughn Madsen I tried to read it. 16:06 Vaughn Madsen I'm not very academic. 16:08 Vaughn Madsen I struggled, but I said there's only one book that I'm interested in that, and that's the Bible. 16:13 Vaughn Madsen Things got pretty. 16:14 Vaughn Madsen They were yelling pretty loud because Sharon and the kids could hear them at the other end of the house. 16:21 Vaughn Madsen They left and they were very upset. 16:24 Vaughn Madsen That I hadn't repented and gone gone back to saying that I believe God's a Trinity. 16:30 Sean Finnegan Why do you think they were so angry? 16:32 Vaughn Madsen They just with the statement of faith. They had clearly just gone through and wrote down what the statement of faith is with the church and one of them had stood up to the church and said this is what we've we've got to believe. 16:47 Vaughn Madsen Is the non negotiable. This is the five non negotiables. 16:51 Vaughn Madsen You can't question them. 16:52 Vaughn Madsen You can't study them. 16:54 Vaughn Madsen You have to believe them. 16:55 Sean Finnegan Wow. 16:55 Vaughn Madsen And then I gone to him straight away and said, hey, look, from the Bible, I I don't see that. It's true, but I think he was feeling maybe under minded maybe for his position or disrespected or something like that from this Family Guy who doesn't read and write. 17:14 Vaughn Madsen Yeah. And I know he he was pretty offended. 17:18 Sean Finnegan So what happened? 17:19 Sean Finnegan Did you continue going to that church? 17:21 Vaughn Madsen When they left, Sharon came out and she knew that it hadn't gone very well. 17:29 Vaughn Madsen I was pretty shocked, Sharon. The the kids had gone to bed. 17:34 Vaughn Madsen It's very, very hard for us to even talk because Sharon was completely, you know, at at that stage and for many years after she was 100%. 17:44 Vaughn Madsen Sure that the Trinity was. 17:48 Vaughn Madsen I was feeling very lost because I didn't know anybody else that thought this way at. 17:54 Vaughn Madsen I knew that Jehovah's Witness went, didn't believe in the Trinity, but I wasn't a Jehovah's Witness and I hadn't been influenced by the Jehovah's Witness. 18:03 Vaughn Madsen I just knew that God was not a Trinity from the Bible. 18:06 Vaughn Madsen I sat down. 18:07 Vaughn Madsen I'd been reading the Bible a lot in the in the last week, just trying to figure it out. 18:13 Vaughn Madsen And I opened up the Bible, and I'm not somebody who opens up the Bible and puts their finger down and says God, speaking to me through this voice. 18:22 Vaughn Madsen I opened up my Bible. Sharon was watching. 18:26 Vaughn Madsen Maybe. 18:27 Vaughn Madsen Or she might have been watching. 18:29 Vaughn Madsen TV and I went to go to the New Testament, but my Bible opened up in in the middle and I started reading and it was Psalm 119 and I said. 18:43 Vaughn Madsen I sat down and. 18:45 Vaughn Madsen My Bob opened up to some 119 and I read from verse 97 through to 100 and it and it reads like this. 18:54 Vaughn Madsen Oh, how I love your Lord. 18:56 Vaughn Madsen I meditate on it all day long. 19:00 Vaughn Madsen Your commands are always with me. 19:03 Vaughn Madsen Make me. 19:06 Vaughn Madsen Wiser than my enemies? 19:09 Vaughn Madsen I have more insight than my teachers. 19:13 Vaughn Madsen For Ameritrade on your state sheets, I have more understanding than the elders or obey you receipts. 19:21 Sean Finnegan Well. 19:23 Vaughn Madsen I I said to Sharon. 19:25 Vaughn Madsen Look what I've just read and I said, what do you think that's saying? 19:30 Vaughn Madsen She said, well, that's pretty obvious what it's. 19:34 Vaughn Madsen And for me, Sean? 19:37 Vaughn Madsen That was all I needed to have peace. 19:41 Vaughn Madsen I never ever questioned whether God was a Trinity again. 19:46 Vaughn Madsen From the little bit that I knew in the Bible, the very clear, you know, I read all of the greetings of Paul's letters and and other leaders like, you know, James and Peter, Peter and Timothy and. 19:53 Yeah. 19:57 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 20:00 Vaughn Madsen At at that stage I had peace. 20:03 Vaughn Madsen That I was in the truth as far as realizing that God is not a Trinity. 20:09 Vaughn Madsen But from my understanding now there's so much I didn't know, but what I did know is God wasn't a. 20:17 Vaughn Madsen And so the elders was working on on Sharon a lot when she was at the office and and they were, it is a really, really tough time for my wife. 20:28 Vaughn Madsen And the elders said, well, OK, So what are you going to teach your kids? 20:33 Vaughn Madsen Because our our kids were 1012 and 14 at that stage, but might have been 11-12 and 14 and. 20:41 Vaughn Madsen So Sharon came home one day from the office and said, Vaughn, what are we going to teach the kids as far as who got? 20:50 Vaughn Madsen I said to Sharon, well, we'll have a meeting together with the kids together. And so we we set our three kids down. 20:57 Vaughn Madsen As the father of the household, I said to the kids look. 21:03 Vaughn Madsen Dad doesn't believe that God is a Trinity, I said very clearly from the Bible. 21:09 Vaughn Madsen However, Mom does believe that God is a Trinity, and so does every other mainstream church that I know of. 21:18 Vaughn Madsen What I want you kids to do is I don't want you kids to believe that God is a Trinity because your mother believes that. And I don't want you kids to believe that God. 21:33 Vaughn Madsen Is not a Trinity because that's what I believe. 21:37 Vaughn Madsen I want you kids to find the answers in here. 21:41 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 21:42 Vaughn Madsen Study it. 21:44 Vaughn Madsen At that stage. 21:46 Vaughn Madsen Our youngest boy, Josh, he was about 11. 21:49 Vaughn Madsen Had already been baptized. 21:52 Vaughn Madsen And he had strong faith and our daughter was about 14. 21:56 Vaughn Madsen I think she'd been baptized as well. 21:58 Vaughn Madsen Baptized Josh and Kayla. 22:01 Vaughn Madsen They had strong. 22:02 Vaughn Madsen They were serious about the walk with God. 22:06 Vaughn Madsen Our middle son. 22:08 Vaughn Madsen Not so much. That didn't come for for years later. 22:12 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 22:13 Vaughn Madsen And so these three kids got into the Bible, especially Josh and Kayla. 22:21 Vaughn Madsen And they came to the conclusion very quick that God is not a Trinity. 22:25 Vaughn Madsen With a child like faith, they could see the verses there that. 22:30 Vaughn Madsen Is an eye. 22:31 Vaughn Madsen God is a. 22:32 Vaughn Madsen God is a the father alone. 22:35 Vaughn Madsen It was hard because they were having their teachers at church whenever they open their mouth, they would. 22:44 Vaughn Madsen Especially. 22:45 Vaughn Madsen I think he's quite vocal like his dad. 22:48 Sean Finnegan Ha ha ha. 22:49 Vaughn Madsen I I can remember one night Sharon was out in the spa pool with the two boys and they were having a conversation. 22:58 Vaughn Madsen Sparkle is what do you guys call it? A hot tub or something like that? 23:01 Sean Finnegan OK. Yeah. 23:03 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, we've got an outside hot tub that we made and and Sharon called me up here and said Vaughn, we've got a problem. And so I went out there. 23:11 Vaughn Madsen The problem? 23:13 Vaughn Madsen Josh, who was I? 23:14 Vaughn Madsen I think he was 11 or 12. Did. I've been told by one of his leaders at his youth group that if you don't believe the Trinity, you've got no salvation. 23:25 Sean Finnegan Oh boy. 23:25 Vaughn Madsen And Sharon said this is your problem. 23:28 Vaughn Madsen Because Sharon was still very, very, very much a Trinitarian at that stage. 23:35 Vaughn Madsen So, she said. 23:36 Vaughn Madsen What are you going to do about this? 23:38 Vaughn Madsen So I. 23:38 Vaughn Madsen There's there's no problem. 23:40 Vaughn Madsen So I I bought Josh. 23:43 Vaughn Madsen And we went to a couple of passages in the Bible, but one of them was Luke, Chapter 10, verse 25 or 35. 23:51 Vaughn Madsen And Jesus is asked by a Jewish teacher and he says Jesus, he said, let's see if I can find it. 24:00 Sean Finnegan Yeah, you're. 24:00 Sean Finnegan It's Luke 1025. 24:02 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, Luke 1025. And I really like this because he says on one occasion the expert of the law stood up to test Jesus, teacher. 24:10 Vaughn Madsen He asked. 24:11 Vaughn Madsen What must I do to inherit eternal life? 24:16 Vaughn Madsen And Jesus says, well, you know, how do you read? 24:18 Vaughn Madsen And the guy says, well, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul strength and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. 24:23 Vaughn Madsen Jesus says you have answered correctly. 24:25 Vaughn Madsen Do this in your love and there's other passages there with Paul's writings or an ex. When Peter was asked what do we need to do to be saved. 24:35 Vaughn Madsen And there was no Trinity there. So I said to Josh, it's about. 24:40 Vaughn Madsen Repentance and being. 24:42 Vaughn Madsen There's nothing there that says that that we have to believe that God, although the church would say that I know the church says that we must believe that God is a Trinity to be saved, I said that's not coming. 24:55 Vaughn Madsen The Bible. 24:56 Vaughn Madsen And he was good with it. 24:57 Vaughn Madsen Had. 24:58 Vaughn Madsen After that, Josh had peace and there was no problem. 25:02 Sean Finnegan So then what was next for your wife? 25:05 Sean Finnegan There was. 25:06 Sean Finnegan There were some years between when you changed your mind on this and when she did. 25:13 Vaughn Madsen I had some more changing to do, Sean. The next thing for myself that changed and and and it was just to to me it was just as big as the Trinity and that that happened maybe a year later. 25:29 Vaughn Madsen From my brother going to Bible school, he was telling me about this preacher Paul Washer and I I downloaded some of Paul Washer's sermons. 25:39 Vaughn Madsen Paul Washer was speaking on on the sermon on the Mount at the Matthew 7 and at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, he's talking about the narrow way and the Broadway and true and false prophets. 25:52 Vaughn Madsen And then he was preaching on. Not everybody says to me, Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven. 25:59 Vaughn Madsen And these people were people who had prophesied and cast out demons and performed many miracles in Jesus name, and he says. 26:07 Vaughn Madsen From. 26:07 Vaughn Madsen I never knew you. 26:09 Vaughn Madsen I was. 26:10 Vaughn Madsen Sure, this shook me to my. 26:13 Vaughn Madsen Because what I come to realize after listening. 26:19 Vaughn Madsen And and and studying a lot more is salvation comes through repentance, not acceptance. 26:28 Vaughn Madsen For me, I thought I was a Christian because I had asked Jesus my heart. I've been baptized. 26:35 Vaughn Madsen I didn't think. 26:37 Vaughn Madsen My understanding was we're all sinners. 26:39 Vaughn Madsen I knew I had a lot of sin in my life. 26:42 Vaughn Madsen Some of it I didn't realize. 26:44 Vaughn Madsen Of it I knew. 26:47 Vaughn Madsen Without a doubt, I realized that I had to repeat from sin in order to be saved. 26:52 Vaughn Madsen And I think that really, really shook me up and I bought a new Bible at that stage. I was. 26:58 Vaughn Madsen Probably in my I think I was maybe about 43 or 44 and my eyes were getting. 27:03 Vaughn Madsen So I went and bought a a new Bible with big front and I started reading my Bible every day. When I got up. 27:10 Vaughn Madsen I'm a farmer, so I I come inside a lot of the farm. 27:14 Vaughn Madsen And my Bible sat on the coffee table and the lounge for years. 27:19 Vaughn Madsen When he was inside, I was reading my Bible and I didn't know repentance and I just consumed mainly the New Testament and Psalms and proverbs and some of the Old Testament. But maybe the New Testament. And what I didn't realize. 27:36 Vaughn Madsen Is to be a. 27:37 Vaughn Madsen I had to obey the commands of Jesus. 27:39 Vaughn Madsen I didn't know that. 27:41 Vaughn Madsen I didn't know. 27:41 Vaughn Madsen I was very, very passionate about finding truth, so we're probably maybe four years further down the line from me realizing that God isn't a Trinity. 27:55 Vaughn Madsen I tried to show my wife several times. 27:59 Vaughn Madsen From the Bible that God is not a Trinity. 28:03 Vaughn Madsen It hadn't gone well. 28:04 Vaughn Madsen Sharon wasn't prepared to look at it. She had. 28:08 Vaughn Madsen Had it. 28:09 Vaughn Madsen This is and also. 28:11 Vaughn Madsen She had her teachers and she had listened to a lot of poor washers teachings as well. 28:16 Vaughn Madsen Of. 28:16 Vaughn Madsen Paul Washer, where he says that if you don't believe that Jesus, God, you haven't got to base one and you certainly don't have salvation. 28:23 Vaughn Madsen So and my my brother and the elders and pastors at the church that we were going. 28:24 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 28:30 Vaughn Madsen Also told that to Sharon as well. 28:32 Vaughn Madsen I'm sorry as well, Sharon. 28:34 Vaughn Madsen Left the. 28:35 Vaughn Madsen The clock back after the the Elders came out and saw me for the second time. 28:41 Vaughn Madsen Sharon, I realized we couldn't go to that church anymore after 10 years. We knew we had to move on. It was interesting. 28:50 Vaughn Madsen There's a well known man in the church who'd been there the whole time we've been there. 28:56 Vaughn Madsen Name. 28:57 Vaughn Madsen I won't say his name, but it's it's a long time ago surname was born. 29:02 Vaughn Madsen He had a shaking disease and I'm not sure what the name of the disease is, but he was. He struggled to walk. 29:10 Vaughn Madsen And this man died. 29:12 Vaughn Madsen The same elder stood up in front of the church and said Richard has died. He's in heaven now. 29:21 Vaughn Madsen With he's in heaven now with God. 29:23 Vaughn Madsen A week later, another elder stood up and says, you know, if Richard could just open up the curtains and come back and speak to us, you know, he's up there and he's been given his new body because he was very. 29:38 Vaughn Madsen Shaky. 29:39 Vaughn Madsen And struggled to walk after the truth that I found in the Bible. I went to this elder and I said to him. 29:46 Vaughn Madsen Try after. 29:47 Vaughn Madsen So as soon as church had finished, I went straight to and sat down with them and I said, look you, you've just told the church that Richard has received his new body and he's in heaven. I said to him, I don't believe that's biblical. 30:01 Vaughn Madsen You give me some biblical. 30:04 Vaughn Madsen Basis for telling the church that Richard's in heaven and he's received his new body. And he said well. 30:12 Vaughn Madsen I can't think of it off the top of my head, but I'll take it to the elders and the next elders meeting and I'll get. 30:17 Vaughn Madsen To you and I said, that'd be great. 30:20 Vaughn Madsen He was never able to come back to. 30:22 Vaughn Madsen He apologised a few times for not coming back to me. 30:25 Vaughn Madsen Of course, he never did. 30:27 Vaughn Madsen Come back to me. I I said to. 30:29 Vaughn Madsen This is very, very serious, because you you're standing there and you're speaking this to hundreds of people and they're writing it all down. 30:40 Vaughn Madsen And that's not what the Bible says. 30:44 Vaughn Madsen So Sharon, I realise that especially with what the elders were telling her, what she needs to do to have an influence on me so I can come back to being a Trinity when we knew we couldn't go to that church anymore. 30:55 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 30:59 Vaughn Madsen After 10 years, we left. 31:01 Vaughn Madsen And started a new church. 31:04 Vaughn Madsen When I went to the new church, I said to the pastor. 31:09 Vaughn Madsen I don't believe the Trinity. 31:11 Vaughn Madsen Is it gonna be a problem for me to? 31:12 Vaughn Madsen Along here. 31:13 Vaughn Madsen And he said no, no problem at all. 31:15 Vaughn Madsen And I thought, oh man, great. 31:17 Vaughn Madsen I realized later on that he was speaking with the pastor. 31:21 Vaughn Madsen The. 31:21 Vaughn Madsen That and the elders. 31:23 Vaughn Madsen And they said we're done with this lawn guy. But if if you could sort them out, that would be good. 31:30 Vaughn Madsen After we'd moved to this new church, I'd come to realise that repentance was where salvation is found when we repent. 31:39 Vaughn Madsen God is light. 31:40 Vaughn Madsen And him, there's no doubt that we claim to know him, yet walk in darkness. We lie in deceit ourselves. 31:46 Yeah. 31:47 Vaughn Madsen But if we walk in the light. 31:50 Vaughn Madsen As God is like we have fellowship with one another and the blood of his son purifies us from all sin. So. So I realized there was repentance required. 32:02 Vaughn Madsen And so I started speaking this to the Bible studies that I was going to, and I started speaking verse to people in the church. 32:10 Vaughn Madsen That we've got to be living righteous lives that we've got to be obeying Jesus. 32:16 Vaughn Madsen And what I've learned with Orthodox Christianity with Orthodox Christianity, there's two things that you must believe. 32:24 Vaughn Madsen Is Jesus is God. 32:26 Vaughn Madsen You can't question that. Otherwise it's going to go bad. 32:30 Vaughn Madsen And the second thing. 32:32 Vaughn Madsen Is salvation is a free gift and you receive it by acceptance. 32:38 Vaughn Madsen I'd gone against both of those. 32:41 Sean Finnegan So did they kick you out of this church too? Or they let you stay or what happened? 32:46 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I I was. 32:48 Vaughn Madsen I was going to a a men's Bible study. At this stage, I've been in my Bible now for several years and I was really getting to know the New Testament really well. 32:58 Vaughn Madsen It was my comfort and and I wanted to share it with other people. 33:03 Vaughn Madsen And and the Bible study, the Men's Bible study, a new men's Bible study that it just started up. 33:09 Vaughn Madsen I was very, very. 33:11 Vaughn Madsen I knew I couldn't speak on God not being a Trinity because I respected that it was a Trinitarian. 33:17 Vaughn Madsen So I keep that to myself, but well, all the leaders and and a lot of the people knew that I didn't believe the Trinity. 33:25 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I I didn't speak about that too. 33:28 Vaughn Madsen When I started trying to show people the importance of repentance and the importance of obeying Jesus. 33:37 Vaughn Madsen And how that if we're not obeying Jesus? 33:40 Vaughn Madsen According to him, we don't love him and we're not following him. 33:44 Vaughn Madsen I lost most of my friends in the church 1 by 1 and my friends, my other Christian friends. I I lost them one by one in this particular men's group. 33:57 Vaughn Madsen One of the men went to the leader of the group and said if Thorn continues to go along to this Bible. 34:04 Vaughn Madsen Group. I'm out of here. 34:05 Vaughn Madsen Not going anymore. 34:07 Vaughn Madsen And so the the leader of the group came to me and said. 34:12 Vaughn Madsen Born we've got people that are gonna stop coming. 34:15 Vaughn Madsen If if you continue to speak the way you're speaking, I said to the leader of that time, it's not me that I've got a problem with that got a problem with Jesus because all I'm doing is I'm just. I'm just showing you what the New Testament says. 34:32 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I got to the point where for the sake of of that church, I left Sharon and the kids stayed. But I left because I was upsetting. 34:42 Vaughn Madsen Too many people. So I started going to a new church. 34:46 Vaughn Madsen New Bible study groups. 34:49 Vaughn Madsen But the same things has happened over and over again. 34:53 Vaughn Madsen I went to 11 Bible study group in another town and it's and it's at night time and I was talking repentance and and holiness the people got so angry in this Bible study. 35:04 Vaughn Madsen Was about a dozen of us here in the Bible study. 35:07 Vaughn Madsen And it was a Wonder night. And it's in town. They had the fireplace going. 35:12 Vaughn Madsen I I really liked it. 35:13 Vaughn Madsen Nothing to do with the other churches that I I come from and the whole lot of them got so upset at the thought of having to repent. They all left. 35:23 Vaughn Madsen I'm sitting in this Bible study. 35:24 Vaughn Madsen Turned up. 35:25 Vaughn Madsen I was probably the last one to get there and I'm sitting there by the fire by myself. 35:29 Sean Finnegan Oh wow. 35:31 Vaughn Madsen Just because I was trying to show them that. 35:34 Vaughn Madsen Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't make you a Christian, and to be a Christian, we must obey the commands of Jesus and people and Orthodox Christianity. 35:45 Vaughn Madsen Just won't take it. 35:47 Vaughn Madsen They insist, you know, look at the thief. 35:49 Vaughn Madsen The cross. 35:50 Vaughn Madsen Or look, look at Paul. 35:52 Vaughn Madsen All the good that he wanted to do, he couldn't do. 35:54 Vaughn Madsen And all of the bad that he didn't want to do that was his life. And I'd say to them, well, that's. 36:01 Vaughn Madsen If that's what your understanding of Paul's life is, that's pretty weird because Paul says at least three times follow my example. 36:09 Vaughn Madsen Saying to the churches follow my example as I follow Christ and so understanding Romans 9 where he's pre converted state that was you know that was before he was changed. 36:17 Sean Finnegan Romans 7. 36:23 Sean Finnegan Exactly. Yeah. Romans 7 is about the hypothetical scenario of a Jew trying to keep the law without Christ or or even perhaps Paul, either as Paul before Christ. Or it's a hypothetical. 36:33 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, yeah. 36:39 Sean Finnegan Either way, it's not. We're supposed to be in Romans 8 as Christians. 36:45 Sean Finnegan Not supposed to be in Romans 7. 36:47 Sean Finnegan Romans 8 is where the victory comes in. Christ, and it's by the spirit that we can mortify the deeds of the flesh. 36:54 Vaughn Madsen Yeah. 36:55 Sean Finnegan So to claim that we don't have the spirit available and that we're in the same situation as a Jew under the law is, you know, it doesn't make sense as a Christian. 36:59 Vaughn Madsen Hmm. 37:05 Sean Finnegan So what happened next? 37:06 Vaughn Madsen Over that period of time, Sean, my life changed a lot. 37:11 Vaughn Madsen So my life was all about motorbikes. I attended a farm into a motorbike park and we had hundreds, probably thousands of people coming in over. 37:22 Vaughn Madsen A10 year. 37:23 Vaughn Madsen And I thought it was part of my ministry, which I I guess at the time it was, we wouldn't charge anybody to come and ride. 37:29 Vaughn Madsen And. 37:30 Vaughn Madsen I was doing a lot of cycling at at a high level and then and then changed it later to running. 37:35 Vaughn Madsen And my life changed, realizing that when I evaluated my life, I realized my heart wasn't for God. I thought it was. 37:45 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 37:47 Vaughn Madsen But it wasn't for. 37:47 Vaughn Madsen My heart, what I would wake up, what excited me, what broke my heart, what broke my heart was losing a race. 37:55 Vaughn Madsen What excited me was the next race where all my energy was going, was training or preparing motorbike tracks for people. 38:04 Vaughn Madsen I changed. 38:05 Vaughn Madsen And the things that the motorbikes are cycling and running. 38:10 Vaughn Madsen That was my life. 38:13 Vaughn Madsen I almost started to hate because I realized that. 38:17 Vaughn Madsen They had consumed my passion instead of wanting to serve Christ and serve Christ as to show love to the needy and share the good news. 38:33 Vaughn Madsen With people who who need to find out about the good news. 38:36 Vaughn Madsen My heart was broken for the lost. 38:39 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, my heart was broken for what I thought was the true church. 38:43 Vaughn Madsen And I realized over a period of time how broken the church was. 38:49 Vaughn Madsen And it was just something that for me, it was just something I I love church. But it was just church. When I changed, I was still going to the second church that I been part of for seven years and. 39:04 Vaughn Madsen What I would do is after church, we would have a lunch and I would walk around. 39:10 Vaughn Madsen Different groups 'cause these people you know, if you have a lunch, is a group of three over here. Group of four here group of two here group of 2 here and. 39:18 Vaughn Madsen 'S. 39:19 Vaughn Madsen Having fellowship, I would. 39:21 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I don't do things by halves and I don't know. 39:24 Vaughn Madsen I would walk around and I. 39:25 Sean Finnegan I noticed that about you. 39:27 Vaughn Madsen I would listen to a conversation and I'd go around and I'd try and find one conversation in that church with people that has got anything to do with Christianity. 39:40 Vaughn Madsen What I found is the conversations that I would hear. 39:44 Vaughn Madsen As talking about the rugby game, talking about fishing, talking about anything but. 39:50 Vaughn Madsen As a person, I changed. 39:52 Vaughn Madsen But the one thing that I couldn't change and I desperately, desperately, desperately wanted to change was my wife's understanding on the Trinity. 40:03 Vaughn Madsen My at this stage my my kids were. 40:07 Vaughn Madsen All teenagers, they had their. 40:09 Vaughn Madsen They were going to be Bible studies. 40:12 Vaughn Madsen I I couldn't change Sharon and and what what I haven't talked about yet is and about I think it was maybe about 2000. 40:19 Vaughn Madsen 15 or 6 might have been 2016 or started coming across some podcasts, and I think focus on the Kingdom. 40:27 Vaughn Madsen Another one was Trinity Delusion. Another one was. 40:32 Vaughn Madsen Spirit and and truth. And then later it was like riff, the Trudio and Mark's channel. 40:40 Vaughn Madsen I was listening to a lot of teaching of who Jesus is. 40:46 Vaughn Madsen I was understanding it from a much more biblical, much more in depth biblical evidence, if you like. 40:54 Vaughn Madsen There's so much in there of there's so much evidence and what I was trying to do is when I listened to this, I would try and say to Sharon, sit down. 41:04 Vaughn Madsen And let's listen to I've got a podcast. I want you to listen to. 41:08 Vaughn Madsen She wasn't interested. 41:10 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I couldn't. 41:11 Vaughn Madsen So So what do I started doing? 41:13 Vaughn Madsen I I did it for years. 41:15 Vaughn Madsen As as I. 41:17 Vaughn Madsen It is a very, very hard time for Sharon as well. 41:21 Vaughn Madsen It is a very hard on our marriage. 41:24 Vaughn Madsen So every night when I go to bed, I would lay my hand on Sharon and pray that God would open her eyes. 41:31 Sean Finnegan You pray to quietly or out loud. 41:34 Vaughn Madsen Quietly. If I prayed it out loud, I. 41:34 Sean Finnegan OK. 41:37 Vaughn Madsen I would have probably lost. 41:37 Sean Finnegan That might have been a little over the top if you. 41:39 Vaughn Madsen I probably would have lost my teeth here. 41:41 Sean Finnegan Yeah, you might have lost your teeth. 41:44 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, I prayed that for Sharon for years and. 41:48 Vaughn Madsen For very little or no progress, and I left it with God, I said. 41:53 Vaughn Madsen Fine. 41:54 Vaughn Madsen There was a song as I was going through this because I at this stage I didn't have HH to go to. 41:59 Vaughn Madsen I didn't have a Bible study group to go to, and there's a song I don't know whether you guys have either sang it, but the the song is I have decided to follow Jesus. 42:08 Sean Finnegan Yeah, we have that. 42:08 Vaughn Madsen Though not. 42:09 Vaughn Madsen Yeah, though none come with. 42:12 Vaughn Madsen Still, I will follow and I held on to. 42:14 Vaughn Madsen That. 42:15 Vaughn Madsen And there's also a verse in the Bible, and it's in Matthew. 42:20 Vaughn Madsen In Luke, and it was very, very comforting to me as well. 42:24 Vaughn Madsen Blessed to you, when people hate you when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the son of man. 42:32 Vaughn Madsen Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward and heaven for that is how the ancestors treated the prophets. 42:41 Vaughn Madsen That was my comfort. 42:43 Vaughn Madsen How am I going to reach my? 42:44 Vaughn Madsen And I thought, well, maybe I I never will be able to reach my wife. 42:49 Vaughn Madsen Two years ago, everything changed. 42:55 Sean Finnegan Well, we're going to have to pause it there and save the rest of this conversation for next week. 43:02 Sean Finnegan Do you? 43:03 Sean Finnegan Is his wife Sharon going to come around? 43:06 Sean Finnegan You'll have to stay tuned if you want to find out the exciting conclusion of. 43:11 Sean Finnegan The last couple of years of von Madsen's story, if you enjoyed this episode or just have questions and comments come on over to restitudio.org and find Episode 582. 43:22 Sean Finnegan Kiwi farmer pursues biblical truth with von Madsen and leave your feedback there. 43:27 Sean Finnegan On the episode from 2 weeks ago, an honest evaluation of the evidence for the deity of Christ Rob wrote in saying, Sean, this is a very helpful presentation demonstrating the strength of the Biblical Unitarian case to the best explanation of the overall biblical narrative. 43:45 Sean Finnegan My one suggestion is to look carefully at Bill Schlegel's episodes on Hebrews 1/8. 43:50 Sean Finnegan John 20. 43:51 Sean Finnegan 28 Although you alluded to the Tye of positions he presents, you opted for the view that both passages likely refer to Jesus as God, but in a lesser sense of theos. 44:02 Sean Finnegan However, I think Bill presents a strong case that neither of these verses refer to Jesus as God. 44:08 Sean Finnegan I think this actually leaves the references to Jesus God in the New Testament at. 44:12 Sean Finnegan I think Bill's podcast in John 2028 is an amazing Tour de force on this verse. I would only add to it that if Granville Sharps rule has any validity, John 2028 shows my Lord and my God to be separate persons here, but in. 44:27 Sean Finnegan Places they use it to prove the deity of Christ. It would actually show God and Jesus to be the same person. 44:32 Sean Finnegan Modalism not the. 44:34 Sean Finnegan Essence, nature, or being trinitarianism and then Rob provides links to bills, episodes on those two verses. 44:44 Sean Finnegan I'll have to check out what he says. 44:45 Sean Finnegan Know that Mister Schlegel does take a. 44:48 Sean Finnegan A translation strategy on Hebrews 18 where he sees the translation as God, is your throne instead of your throne 0. 44:58 Sean Finnegan Is forever and ever and so forth and I have not been persuaded by that. 45:03 Sean Finnegan Position the phrase God is your throne just doesn't seem biblical to. 45:09 Sean Finnegan I don't see that other places in the Bible. I don't see how God could be a throne. 45:15 Sean Finnegan It just doesn't make sense to me, and this leads me to my next point about this sort of approach of taking a minority interpretation for John. One one through 14 for example. 45:32 Sean Finnegan Hebrews 18 John 2028 is. 45:35 Sean Finnegan You. 45:35 Sean Finnegan Take a minority position on any text. 45:38 Sean Finnegan Obviously lots of people do, but if you say this really means this and this really means this and this really means this, it has a compounding effect over time. 45:49 Sean Finnegan Such that to me the whole case for Unitarianism seems flimsier. 45:54 Sean Finnegan And I'm taking a hard reading of Hebrews 118. I'm taking a hard reading of John 2028, the hardest, strongest, most robust reading, which is that Hebrews 18 just calls Jesus God, and it just called the King of Israel from Psalm 45 six God. 46:11 Sean Finnegan And that Thomas is just calling Jesus here God as well. 46:15 Sean Finnegan That is the face value harder reading for Unitarianism. 46:19 Sean Finnegan And I'm working within that framework and that is my typical approach. I want to take the hard approach and see what can be said, see how it makes sense that way. 46:30 Sean Finnegan Rather than take a unitary reading on all the different texts. 46:33 Sean Finnegan So that might just be a methodology difference between Mr. Schlegel and myself, or I might just be seeing it differently. 46:41 Sean Finnegan But thanks Rob for writing in and providing those links and those who are. 46:46 Sean Finnegan Please go check out those episodes on Schlegel's excellent One God Report podcast, which I think is definitely worth your time. 46:56 Sean Finnegan Steve Wrightson saying hi many times, I hear people explain away Titus 213 calling Jesus God but seem to miss the point of the verse in my opinion. 47:06 Sean Finnegan Please see this short substack for how I think we should explain it. 47:12 Sean Finnegan Um, not really sure what a substack is. 47:14 Sean Finnegan So let's go ahead and click the link. Oh oh. 47:16 Sean Finnegan Rug. Cool Titus 213 in which? 47:22 Sean Finnegan The author, who happens to be the same person that wrote the comment, makes the point that what Paul is looking for is not the appearing of our great God and savior, but the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior. 47:40 Sean Finnegan And the glory of our great God and savior is Jesus. 47:43 Sean Finnegan This is a position that I have been exposed to in the past and I think it does have a lot of merit. 47:51 Sean Finnegan There was a presentation out on the West Coast I attended maybe 15 years ago where somebody was making the same point that that we could actually interpret this as an M dash. 48:05 Sean Finnegan Where Paul says looking for the Blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and savior, Dash Christ Jesus. 48:13 Sean Finnegan In other words, Christ Jesus just is the glory of our great God and savior that we're looking for. 48:19 Sean Finnegan And I think that position definitely has a lot going for. 48:23 Sean Finnegan So yeah, take a look at that. If you would like to read Steve's sub stack, you can do that. 48:31 Sean Finnegan Because he does say more than what I just summarized here. 48:33 Sean Finnegan You can do that by going to restitudio dot. 48:35 Sean Finnegan Find Episode 580 an honest evaluation of the evidence for the deity of Christ, which is my presentation from the New Zealand Conference where Vaughn was. 48:43 Sean Finnegan In the front row. 48:45 Sean Finnegan And you can see his comment there where he has a nice link to get to his blog entry on that. 48:53 Sean Finnegan Well, thanks everybody for writing in. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends. 48:58 Sean Finnegan Send it out as an e-mail. 49:00 Sean Finnegan Share it on social media. 49:03 Sean Finnegan Knock on your neighbors door. 49:04 Sean Finnegan Hey, check out this interview with this interesting New Zealand dairy Farmer and his experience of pursuing truth wherever it leads. 49:14 Sean Finnegan Do you think and see what your neighbor says? 49:18 Sean Finnegan It would really help the show as people really do trust word of mouth over some impersonal. 49:25 Sean Finnegan So thanks all of you who have been doing that and have done it. If you'd like to support us financially, that helps a lot too. 49:31 Sean Finnegan Can do that at our website restitutudio .0 RG. 49:35 Sean Finnegan We've got a little donate button there. 49:37 Sean Finnegan I'll catch you next week and remember, the truth has nothing to fear.