This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 570: My Journey into Healing Ministry with Bob Carden This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Audio file 570 Bob Carden - Holy Spirit.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to restitutio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan I'm convinced that people need the touch of God in their lives. People are broken, wounded, and sick, and Jesus Christ has come already and made available deliverance from sin and its consequences. Of course, he did this throughout his ministry. 00:27 Sean Finnegan History, but he continues to bring healing through his church today. I wonder if you would agree with me on that. My guest today is Bob Carden, who shares about his own journey of faith from Catholicism to the way ministry to pastoring a non denominational church in Naperville, IL. Now retired, he relates his decades long pursuit. 00:48 Sean Finnegan Of the miraculous, especially deliverance and healing. Now I realize this can be a controversial subject, which is why I'm so thankful for how carden's, kind and compassionate tone comes through in this conversation. 01:03 Sean Finnegan Here now is episode 570. My journey into healing ministry with Bob Cardin. 01:16 Sean Finnegan Welcome Bob to restitutio. 01:18 Bob Carden Thank you, Sean. 01:19 Sean Finnegan Well, today we're talking about your life and how you have developed over time and your focuses and ministry. Why don't you begin by telling us a little bit about your story, how you grew up and how you came to faith? 01:28 1. 01:34 Sean Finnegan And how you got started? 01:36 Bob Carden Well, I was raised in the Catholic Church in New York City in an Irish Catholic. 01:40 Bob Carden Neighborhood and about the time I got into high school, I drifted away from the church. I was in a Catholic prep school at the time, and there were just certain things going on within the context of the church that just didn't make any sense to me. 01:55 Bob Carden I'd still loved God. I still identified as a Christian, but I distanced myself from church and I was that way for two years. And then in my junior year of high school, I was 17. It was 1971. I came in contact with with what is now called the Jesus Movement and the stream of that that I came in contact with was the way ministry. 02:17 Bob Carden Which is out of. 02:17 Bob Carden Ohio, which had a big impact in Ryan, New York, a big presence in Rye, NY, which was a small town. Ryan only has about 15,000 people. I knew virtually nothing of the Bible when I first came to them. My father had a fairly extensive library. He did not have a Bible, so he had all kinds of other books. 02:36 Noah. 02:38 Bob Carden That he did not have a Bible, so I really was soaking up learning things because I knew I didn't know this and their emphasis was on biblical research and studies, which was something that I knew I had no background in. So I spent the first several years of this everything I learn. 02:56 Bob Carden It was new and I continued to study and that would be, I would say, developing a doctrinal base for how to approach life and living. But the problem with that approach. 03:10 Bob Carden Is unless you temper it with practical application, then you end up with people who are just interested in studying deeper and deeper things in the Bible and they can quote and discourse on any number of subjects. But how does it change lives? And I really began. 03:30 Bob Carden And this was a several decade process. 03:33 Bob Carden Coming to the conclusion that I wasn't seeing as much of the Bible lived out as I knew I had good, solid theologies about many different subjects, but I wasn't seeing transformed lives in the way that I wanted to. So what I have kind of switched is. 03:53 Bob Carden An approach emphasizing doctrine to an approach that combines doctrine with practical application. Now this change. I didn't do it because I felt I already had all the doctrine that I needed. I'm still learning things. I am still changing how I view and believe. 04:10 Bob Carden Things that God presents in his word, but I always have an eye on how is this going to help somebody? How can this transform or change somebody's life because the Bible is meant to be lived as well as learned, and I had seen far too much learning and not enough living. Now I'm not saying that there wasn't any. There was a lot of. 04:30 Bob Carden Emphasis on prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit. But as time went on, the emphasis became more and more entrenched in biblical studies. 04:41 Sean Finnegan Was a pretty exciting those early years in Rye, NY because that's a very famous. 04:46 Sean Finnegan Situation wasn't there like a magazine article? The Groovy Christians of Fry. 04:48 Bob Carden It was a lot. 04:50 Bob Carden The Groovy Christians of Rome, NY and I, I still maintain that I look groovy, Sean. But yes, that was in May of 71 and that was in Life magazine. 04:57 Sean Finnegan OK. 04:59 Sean Finnegan Life magazine, right? Yeah. 04:59 Bob Carden And they talked about us and the the misunderstandings that. 05:04 Sean Finnegan Why? Why did they care about? 05:04 Bob Carden All of our. 05:06 Sean Finnegan You guys like what was? 05:08 Bob Carden I'm sure that there was a connection. Why is a very affluent community, and I'm sure that there were. This was something that was really overrunning. I mean, I think they probably had two or three hundred kids in the high school who were a part of this at one time. And you're talking to high school of like. 05:12 Sean Finnegan OK. 05:22 Oh wow. OK. 05:24 Bob Carden 900 people. 05:26 Bob Carden Now, I didn't go to rye high. I went to a prep school, but it was still a big deal that this much was happening and a lot of the parents were really wondering what their kids were involved with. I remember one of the quotes in that article you referenced is, you know, the the drugs I can understand, but this. 05:42 Bob Carden Is like strange. 05:44 Sean Finnegan The Jesus part, we don't get that. Yeah. And just another question on that period of time in America, this recent Love Revolution movie. Did you think it was true to form or did it seem very different? 05:45 Bob Carden The Jesus. 05:45 Bob Carden How are you getting that? 05:48 Very quick. 05:58 Bob Carden You know, it represented what was going on. 06:00 Bob Carden And. 06:01 Bob Carden In the West Coast and whereas and it was a stream of the Jesus movement we were, we were a different stream of the Jesus movement, but it had similarities in that both of them were pursuing the power of the Holy Spirit. Both of them were solidly Bible based and wanting to pursue a Bible based, and both of them were reaching what would be considered disenfranchised. 06:02 Sean Finnegan OK. 06:06 Yeah. 06:08 OK. 06:22 Bob Carden Youth because it was the height of the Vietnam War. I spent my senior year in high school. 06:28 Bob Carden Figuring I was going to be drafted because I was number 35 in the lottery and the year before they got up to #200. So my senior year, it's like, well anchors away. So you can imagine, you know, my attitude about a lot of things when that's what you're facing. As it turns out they that was the first year they did. 06:36 Sean Finnegan Wow. 06:46 Bob Carden Not draft anybody. 06:48 Bob Carden But that time frame is when the Jesus movement exploded, and it did have a biblical basis, and it did have a power of the Holy Spirit basis, which are still the two things that I emphasize the most. 06:59 Bob Carden You know, if you want to categorize our church and ministry as we are evangelical, in our view of the Bible, meaning we believe the Bible is the word of God and needs to be understood and then followed. It's our only rule for what to believe and how to live. So that's the we want to take that from the evangelical side. But we want to take the power of the Holy Spirit. 07:19 Bob Carden From the charismatic and Pentecostal stream of the church, and we want to wed the two because the evangelical side of the church has historically been cessationist, which means they do not pursue the power of the holy. 07:32 Bob Carden Spirit and the charismatic stream of the church has been, for the most part, light on biblical studies. That's changing, but it has historically been light on biblical studies. We want to make sure that we combine the two, and I want to have a heavier emphasis on helping people live. 07:52 Bob Carden The transformed life that Jesus Christ said we could live. So that's where we've been going with. 07:56 Bob Carden Yeah. 07:57 Sean Finnegan Very good. So how long were you? 07:59 Sean Finnegan With the way. 08:00 Bob Carden I was with the way from 1971 until late 1988. 08:06 Sean Finnegan OK. And what was your experience overall? Was it pretty positive or? 08:11 Bob Carden I would say the way hit its apex around 1975 to 76 and after that you had the suits come in and take over. It became much more organized. 08:26 Bob Carden And of course, a youth coming out of the anti war movement was not much into organizations, so that was but it also then emphasized more and more biblical research as the real goal, and biblical research is not a goal in and of itself, it's a means to understanding the heart of God. 08:30 Sean Finnegan OK. Yeah. 08:46 Bob Carden And living it out in day-to-day life. So I would say my experiences were very positive up till about 1983 or 84. And then it was declined. 08:56 Bob Carden I mean, after that and eventually you left. Well, eventually I was. 09:00 Bob Carden Thrown out. You were thrown out even better. 09:01 Sean Finnegan There. 09:04 Sean Finnegan You wanna go into that at all? 09:06 Bob Carden Well, again, it was a change in leadership with the way international and then a change in emphasis and there was some turmoil in the church. There were people calling out and criticizing certain aspects of how the ministry was run and come. 09:21 Bob Carden Elected and the current board leadership of the way ministry basically gave an ultimatum to all those who were in leadership positions that either they sign on as supporting the trustees or they should find something else to do. 09:37 Sean Finnegan And you weren't comfortable doing that? 09:39 Bob Carden No. 09:39 Sean Finnegan So I just like my dad. 09:41 Bob Carden Yeah, probably probably around the same month. 09:44 Sean Finnegan Yeah. Well, I appreciate hearing it from your perspective, cause I know how he describes it. And I I was curious what you were going to say and you said basically the same thing. So it's tragic to be put in that position either give. 10:00 Sean Finnegan A level of loyalty that you're not comfortable giving to a human being or find a new job. 10:05 Bob Carden Yeah, it was an easy decision, but it wasn't. It was. It was certainly tragic and uncomfortable, but, I mean, it was like a no brainer. Yeah, it was clear. It was. It wasn't. It wasn't a yeah. It wasn't a decision I labored over, but it had repercussions both personally and ministry. 10:12 Sean Finnegan It was clear. Yeah. You're like, I'm not gonna. 10:15 Sean Finnegan Do that, yeah. 10:17 Yeah. 10:21 Sean Finnegan And and so you had been at that point in full time working for the way international or OK? 10:27 Bob Carden I was, yes, I've been full time working for them since 19. 10:31 Bob Carden 82 I. 10:32 Sean Finnegan Think all right. And so, what did you do to get through once you were no longer employed by them? And you, you still had a a fellowship? 10:40 Sean Finnegan Or a church. 10:40 Bob Carden Or we still had. I was overseeing probably 20 to 25 fellowships in the Chicago area, and of those 20 to 25, maybe 12 or so. 10:51 Bob Carden He wanted to continue working with my wife and I, my wife. 10:55 Bob Carden The others, and this is the real tragedy of what happened when the when ministries implode, not just the way ministry, but any kind of ministry that implodes many of those people. Simply stop doing anything. 11:05 Sean Finnegan Oh. 11:07 Bob Carden Some of them did stay with the with the way ministry was now called the International, but many just sort of disappeared. 11:13 Bob Carden And it was a shame. I graduated college with a degree in accounting, and I worked as a CPA when I first got out of college. So I was a by vocational Pastor for many years. And then after we finished paying for our house and educating our children, then I I was full time. I didn't need to make nearly as much money. 11:34 Bob Carden As someone who had children and right things and mortgages to go through, so probably until until I turned over the church in 2020, I was full time, say from. 11:38 Sean Finnegan Yeah, yeah. 11:46 Bob Carden 98 or 2000 until 2020. 11:49 Sean Finnegan OK. And I'm sure you had to reevaluate some of your beliefs over time. 11:56 Sean Finnegan Because you were no longer limited to way Ministry resources and beholden to their leadership. Can you talk about that a little bit, how you were able to sort of venture off the reservation intellectually and doctrinally? 12:12 Bob Carden The way many ministries are. 12:15 Bob Carden It was a walled garden, so it had a certain group of people that you learned from. 12:21 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 12:22 Bob Carden And you didn't really venture much out of? 12:24 Bob Carden That the the way developed from the 1940s, say until the late 60s and it really was during that time evaluating what they believed and they changed a lot of things. But by the time I came along in 1971, it was established what they taught, what they stood for. So that's just what I had. That's what I got. And we just looked at every. 12:45 Bob Carden Certain things didn't take much looking. I mean, we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and say the efficacy of speaking in tongues in your private prayer life. Well, I can still speak in tongues, so maybe there's more for me to learn about that. But it wasn't like I was wondering. Is this true or not? But I did look into in depth the concept of one God as with. 13:06 Bob Carden Yahweh alone. 13:07 Bob Carden Who is the father as the only true God? So how does that hold up scripturally? So that was probably the biggest area that I researched and studied. 13:17 Sean Finnegan And would you say that you were hoping the Trinity was true? 13:20 Bob Carden You know. 13:21 Sean Finnegan I found I'm always secretly hoping the Trinity is true, not because I I think it's a great idea. I think it's a terrible idea. If it were true, then I could. I could believe in it and then I'd have more friends and more career opportunities. It sounds like a terrible reason, but I'm just were you were you more like. 13:25 Bob Carden Who would? 13:28 Bob Carden Let's keep it in. 13:39 Sean Finnegan I'm already a monotheist, a Unitarian, one guy person, whatever you want to call yourself. And now I'm just gonna do my due diligence or your what was your inclination? 13:50 Bob Carden I wanted to see does this hold up? Does my view of God hold up completely, especially as the relationship of God and his son Jesus Christ and I don't know that I secretly hope that that would be through or not? I I'm not sure I care one way or the other. I just wanted to know what was true about it. 14:05 Sean Finnegan Probably not. Yeah. OK. 14:09 Bob Carden And the same are the the same with life after death. And that's something that I whereas with one guy. 14:16 Bob Carden God, my understanding was refined by study, whereas I actually changed the number of things that I believed regarding death and resurrection and the ultimate destiny of man. I had been raised with the idea that Christians go to heaven, righteous Jews from the Old Testament. They would get the earth. 14:36 Sean Finnegan OK. 14:37 Bob Carden That was, in simple terms, what I believed. Not that I had really studied this that much. This is The thing is, I believe things, Sean. 14:46 Bob Carden That I was taught, but not that I had proven myself and it's not that I believe everybody in our churches need to be researchers who can prove out everything themselves, but certainly as leaders, we need to have a better answer. You know, why do you believe that? Well, some dead guy told me that's not a good answer. 14:49 Right. 15:04 Sean Finnegan Not really, no. 15:05 Bob Carden It you know so, but that was those are the two areas I spent a lot of time studying. One, I made some changes to the other I felt was for the most part correct but could be better articulated. 15:18 Sean Finnegan And and this is how your book came about was from that research the the unfinished reformation. 15:21 Bob Carden Yes. 15:23 Bob Carden One guide, the unfinished reformation. 15:25 Bob Carden I felt that there was not a good body of literature on one God that was accessible to the average person. 15:35 Bob Carden And some of these concepts are hard to make accessible because they simply deal with theological points that are not easily understood. But I I decided I wanted to approach it from the idea that the Trinity is simply not a good explanation of what you read in script. 15:45 Hmm. 15:54 Bob Carden That was really kind of what my goal was not to bash people who believe in the Trinity because one of the things that I have from my charismatic side of our faith is that if you have the spirit of God, then you're a Christian. 16:10 Bob Carden And you've been baptized by the Holy Spirit. And I have many people I know who are Trinitarian in their view and outlook who speak in tongues. And I have many people who are biblical Unitarians, and they also speak in tongues. So apparently, whatever we both believe was enough to receive the grace of God. And, you know, when you really work down. 16:30 Bob Carden The simplicity of saved by grace through faith, the amount of faith you actually need is fairly. 16:40 Bob Carden Low bar. There's always a lot more to learn, but God didn't make it like you need to memorize at least one of the Gospels and three church epistles and then then you have enough doctrine. No, I mean, if you believe that Jesus is the Christ you're born of God is what John said. So both sides of this equation, for the most part believe that so. 17:00 Bob Carden That gives me a much more. 17:03 Bob Carden Grace centered view in dealing with other Christians. It's not always reciprocated. 17:11 Sean Finnegan But it's good to be open and willing to. 17:16 Sean Finnegan Learn from others as much as we can, so I want to return to this subject of the power of. 17:25 Sean Finnegan The spirit, the power of the Holy Spirit in the life of a. 17:30 Sean Finnegan Could you talk about that a little bit and? 17:33 Sean Finnegan You know, especially there, I know that there are plenty of us out there who believe in prayer, you know that you can pray for somebody and that God can can answer prayer today. But there would be uncomfortable with the speaking in tongues, uncomfortable with the prophecy, interpretation of tongues, these kinds of things. This is something you were exposed to. 17:54 Sean Finnegan In the way international you subsequently examined whether that was true and you decided that you would like to keep it, and then also develop it over. 18:07 Sean Finnegan Time. Where do you want to get started on this subject? 18:11 Bob Carden Well, this is a a real good area. A good example of OK, we have a biblical belief. How are we going to live this out? How is this going to make an impact on people? And the spirit was always to be an integral part of the coming Kingdom. I mean, you have Old Testament prophecies, Peter quoted Joel. 18:30 Bob Carden On the day of Pentecost, you know your old men shall see visions. Your young men shall dream dreams, your sons and daughters will prophecy. So the spirit was always supposed to be an integral part of the new covenant experience. 18:31 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 18:44 Bob Carden And for a variety of reasons that waned within the church, and as with many things, people throw out the baby with the bath water when there are abuses, and even to this day, there are churches where I would consider that there are abuses in their operation of speaking in tongues or their operation of prophecy. So what's the solution? 19:04 Bob Carden That. 19:05 Bob Carden To just close it down or to see if we can find out. Well, what does the Bible actually teach about this and how can we pursue that? This is comes from my desire to see people healed and delivered. Jesus Christ healed people and he said that the works that we do, he will do also and greater works than these will we do and. 19:25 Bob Carden So talk about frying your circuits. If he said the works that I do, you will do 38% of them. I would go. Wow. That's great. That's impressive. But he said we would do his works and the church people still need. 19:27 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 19:34 Sean Finnegan Yeah, that's. 19:42 Bob Carden The touch of God in their lives. People are damaged, people are hurt, people are sick and God does have answers to that and. 19:53 Bob Carden We in leadership in the church, we need to. 19:57 Bob Carden Put ourselves forward to try to to bring that to do what Jesus did to bring that level of deliverance. And I think sometimes people shy away from prayer for the sick because. 20:10 Bob Carden You know, Jesus was batting 1000. 20:13 Bob Carden There isn't a single person who came to Jesus for healing who left sick. Now he didn't heal everybody in Israel who was sick. He didn't raise everyone from the dead in Israel who had died. But if they came to him, they did not go away empty handed. And that's my goal. That's the standard. That's the gold standard. And you don't get there. 20:35 Bob Carden Unless you put yourself forward to pray for people and this can be challenging because not everybody I pray for gets healed. Certainly not everybody I pray for gets miraculously healed. 20:43 Hmm. 20:47 Bob Carden But a lot more get healed because I'm praying for people than would ever get healed if I didn't pray for. 20:52 Bob Carden People. 20:54 Bob Carden In terms of helping people receive from God, the most important thing when someone comes to me for prayer or for counsel or for deliverance, which is from demonic oppression, the most important thing is they know that they are loved and valued, and this way, even if they don't receive the full healing that they were, that they were seeking. 21:14 Bob Carden They at least know that they were heard, loved and valued, and that God cares about them. 21:19 Bob Carden But I expect people to get healed. And if if you came to me for prayer for something, it's if it's something that's obvious. Like, you know, I can't lift my arm above this. Then I would after I pray for you, I'd ask you to lift your arm higher. And if you couldn't, I'd pray for you again. You know, I would keep praying until I felt that. OK. I'm not getting any further on this. 21:40 Bob Carden But I don't want to develop a theology that accommodates law. 21:46 Bob Carden I still want to preach the full gospel that Jesus Christ has come. He's brought deliverance from sin and its consequences, which is the sin and emotional distress that we see in the fallen world around us. So that's something that I've really been pushing into. So I have gone to learn from a number of different ministries. 22:05 Sean Finnegan Yeah, talk about that. 22:06 Bob Carden Garrett, who's now our current lead pastor, Garrett Bova. He and I went to South Africa to see Todd White do one of his power and love conferences. We also went out together to a healing conference that. 22:20 Bob Carden Bill Johnson in Redding, CA, was hosting this was back in 2019. I've been to events that Randy Clark's Ministry, Global Awakening hosts, and I wanted to learn. 22:32 Bob Carden What are they doing that I'm not doing? Because I really did feel that we had a good theology of healing. 22:38 Bob Carden I mean, it wasn't like you didn't have to convince me that healing is available and that I should be praying for people and and operating gifts of. 22:45 Bob Carden But I wasn't seeing the same kind of results. Now these people differ from us on a lot of other areas. You know the the dead or alive and they go to heaven and most of them are true Italians. Although I will say that within that charismatic stream of the Church, I'll give you an example from Bill Johnson who would certainly identifies the Trinitarian. 23:05 Bob Carden He would be offended if he said that he wasn't a Trinitarian, but he does not describe his belief in Jesus in nicean terms. 23:14 Bob Carden He speaks that one of the quotes from his books God is good is one thing. You need to realize that all the miracles Jesus had done, those as God, I would still be impressed because they're great miracles. But if he had done them as God, I wouldn't have anything to imitate that that that gives me an impossible standard. But when I know that it was a man. 23:31 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 23:35 Bob Carden Fully devoted to God. Now I have something I can pursue. 23:39 Sean Finnegan This what he says. Interesting. 23:39 Bob Carden What he said. 23:41 Bob Carden Yeah, and now. But he's a Trinitarian and I don't know how he kind of reconciles, you know, he was God in heaven before he was on Earth. And now he was. He's God in heaven now. 23:48 Bob Carden Now, but he is recognized that if you are going to pursue the power of the Holy Spirit, then the example is Jesus Christ. And if he was a God, man, he's nothing like me. 24:00 Bob Carden That's that doesn't give me a lot of room for imitation. Yeah, so. But it didn't bother me that these people believe differently than I do on any other number of subjects. I wanted to learn. What are you doing about healing? That is more successful. 24:14 Sean Finnegan Yeah. It's like going to a school for mechanics and you're there to learn how to fix your car. 24:22 Sean Finnegan And how to improve your skills in this one area of life, their politics, their religion, their family life. 24:29 Sean Finnegan Could be very different from yours, but you're just looking at this one sliver, right? 24:34 Bob Carden This is this is what I'm after. Now we we were criticized for going to visit people like that. Who don't you know they believe X or don't you know they believe Y it doesn't really make any difference. 24:39 Sean Finnegan Uh. 24:43 Sean Finnegan And and and and what? 24:44 Sean Finnegan Did what insights did you glean from them? 24:47 Bob Carden Look. 24:48 Bob Carden Here's the the biggest insight I gleaned the more you teach about healing and make healing available and put yourself forward to pray for people, the more people are going to be healed and you'll start to build a critical mass of faith within your community. 25:03 Bob Carden And when we went to Bethel reading, we wanted to get their whole experience. There was a conference, but the conference ended, you know, I think on Friday night and, but we stayed through the weekend for their Sunday service. But they also do healing rooms. 25:18 Bob Carden Every Saturday which you have to sign up for, so they have enough room for people. And that's where I got to see. Here's what they're doing. Their theology is the same as mine, but they make this available. They invite people to come in who would like to receive prayer for healing. They show them a video talking about God's will to heal people. Now, God's not going to heal you. 25:38 Bob Carden Because you've been good this week, he's not going to withhold healing because you are a Sinner, that it's based on the finished work of Christ. So they're preparing people doctrinally. 25:47 Bob Carden And then you wait because they only bring up like 20 people at a time to be prayed for. So you go into. 25:52 Bob Carden Their. 25:53 Bob Carden Main Auditorium but it's not fixed seating it's you know an. 25:56 Bob Carden Open area. 25:57 Bob Carden There's a worship band plane. You can take communion at one station, and then they'll call your group and then you go up. You're, say, 20 people in your group. You prayed for it. 26:07 Bob Carden It's teams of. 26:08 Bob Carden 3. 26:09 Bob Carden Who then speak to you. So what that taught me. 26:12 Bob Carden Was they have a big emphasis on this. They talk about it a lot. They make it available and they put themselves forward. They're not embarrassed. Randy Clark has an interesting teaching that he talks about. If you're going to put yourself forward in the Healing Ministry, healing deliverance ministries, he goes back to the old ABC Sports show, the. 26:32 Bob Carden Thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. 26:35 Sean Finnegan And. 26:35 Bob Carden Remember before your time, but I mean, but The thing is, is that you will get the thrill of victory as you see it, but you have to not be discouraged as you're learning and growing. 26:37 Sean Finnegan OK. 26:46 Bob Carden And too many people get discouraged. And then and then they get a theology that accommodates failure. 26:54 Bob Carden Or worse yet, they develop a theology that accuses the person in need of having no faith. You know, if you had more faith, Sean, you'd be healed. I think that is you will be answerable before God for that, for putting that in his people. 27:07 Sean Finnegan Right. And that's that's the is that from the word Word of Faith influence on the way international they had that idea for. 27:14 Bob Carden And it's not just the international that had that idea. That's that that is sadly fairly widespread, because if you need fair. 27:16 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 27:22 Bob Carden You know well, you didn't have faith, but I tend to look at it. 27:26 Bob Carden If there was more. 27:26 Sean Finnegan Well, talk about how you broke out of that because that was a teaching that we had received as well. 27:31 Bob Carden The the idea is yes, faith is necessary. But instead of accusing you is the person in need. Why don't I look in the mirror? Where's Bob's faith? Do I come to? Am I praying for you with the expectation that God is going to touch your life with healing wholeness that God is going to touch your soul because. 27:50 Bob Carden Jesus ministered in situations that were very antagonistic. I mean, I've never had to pray for somebody with a group of beard strokers look, you know, looking on to a. 28:00 Bob Carden Excuse me. 28:01 Bob Carden I know you have a beard, Sean. Our audience can't see that. But I didn't. Wasn't talking particularly about. 28:05 Bob Carden You. 28:06 Bob Carden So I've never. I've never had. 28:07 Sean Finnegan I self identify as. 28:08 Sean Finnegan A beer stroker for the record. Sorry, go. 28:11 Bob Carden Ahead. So I've never had to minister in that situation. Right. And how about the guy who said, Lord, I believe help thou mine unbelief. 28:15 Sean Finnegan Yeah, that would be difficult. 28:21 Bob Carden I think a lot of Christians today will go well. That's a good start, buddy. And I'm glad you believe it. And when we get we get rid of that unbelief. Come on back and, you know, I think by definition, Sean, if you're coming to me for healing prayer, then you need a boost. 28:38 Bob Carden Because we both believe that God is God is my father, I don't need you don't need me to pray for you. God is my father. I can pray for myself and see deliverance. And I have. And I imagine you have as well. So if I'm coming to somebody else, I'm at a roadblock. I need help. So don't tell me that you know my problem is. 28:56 Bob Carden I need help. 28:57 Bob Carden I already know that. 28:58 Sean Finnegan Yeah, yeah. 28:59 Bob Carden Why do you think? 29:00 Bob Carden I'm. 29:00 Sean Finnegan Here. So you were able to break out of this idea that if healing doesn't happen, it's the sick person's. 29:06 Bob Carden Fault. Correct. 29:08 Bob Carden You know, there's a lot of things that go into that. That's you said this today in your sermon that yeah, that this, this question is multifaceted. So yeah, sometimes, you know, it can be faith, especially if somebody's getting dragged over to get prayed for. Sometimes it can be sin and a person's life that is an obstacle. That's another big one that churches use, like, well, Sean, you didn't get healed. 29:29 Bob Carden Is there's some secret sin on occasion that can be the issue, but to simply assume that's the issue, I think is shifting the blame and allowing me as a minister to look good. 29:30 Hmm. 29:45 Bob Carden At the expense of one of God's children who is hurting. 29:50 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 29:50 Bob Carden I do not want to stand before God. 29:53 Bob Carden And have to explain that conversation. 29:56 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 29:57 Sean Finnegan Yeah, I hear what you're saying. What other insights did you learn from these guys? 30:02 Bob Carden You need God. 30:05 Bob Carden To minister healing, you can pray for anybody, but if you're really going to do it, do ministry the way Jesus did. Then you need to be comfortable hearing from God and. 30:16 Bob Carden And. 30:17 Bob Carden Moving in whatever direction he sends you it it's not that that was a strange idea to me, but to really nail it down that I need to know from God how I how I can approach Sean. So now I do, which I never used to do is if somebody comes to me, I talked to them before I before I ever would move to pray. 30:36 Bob Carden To them, like if you came to me and, you know I have, I've had this anxiety problem. Well, how long have you had it, Sean? You know, six years ago. Well, what happened six years ago? Well, I was in a terrible accident. I almost died. And. OK, so now now we're narrowing down what we need to Minister to. This is especially. 30:50 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 30:57 Bob Carden True if people are harassed by demonic spirits, what is the door that has been opened to them? Because you know, demons are legalists. What? What? What do they consider to be their right of entry? 31:10 Bob Carden To you, the one I have encountered most with people is bitterness and unforgiveness in the heart of people, and that really is a roadblock. Well, you know, because if you refusing to forgive, you are basically telling God and Jesus to shove it on these particular commandments. 31:30 Sean Finnegan Well, I mean, Jesus said himself, if you don't forgive others, your father won't forgive you. Right? Right. After the Lord's prayer. 31:34 Bob Carden This yeah. 31:37 Sean Finnegan So it's not like. 31:39 Sean Finnegan An optional behavior for Christians. 31:40 Bob Carden No. 31:42 Bob Carden No. 31:43 Bob Carden You must forgive it says in Colossians, Jesus talked most about the Kingdom, but he talked an awful lot about forgiveness. 31:44 Yeah. 31:50 Sean Finnegan Yeah, this idea of interviewing people, can I put it? 31:53 Sean Finnegan That. 31:53 Sean Finnegan Way this is kind of a fresh insight where you're sitting with somebody. 31:53 Bob Carden Sure. 31:59 Sean Finnegan And instead of them just saying my I have anxiety heal me, pray for my anxiety. You you will come back and you say OK, well, tell me about the anxiety. How long have you had it? What was going on? And you start to sort of. 32:13 Sean Finnegan Unravel the mystery of it a little bit so that you can get what a little more accuracy in the prayer or what is. 32:21 Bob Carden So that I so that I can understand how God wants me to approach this person. OK. Yeah. I think Jesus was able to do this a whole lot faster than Bob is able to do this. But Even so, when you one of the classic healing examples is the four men who were carrying the cripple and Jesus forgives him of his sins. 32:31 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 32:39 Sean Finnegan Yeah. 32:42 Bob Carden Well, that's understanding that you are forgiven heals the soul. 32:48 Bob Carden And then so Jesus first dealt with what he considered to be the most important issue in this man's life. Because, of course, you know, culturally, he would have considered his paralysis as somewhat of a judgement upon his life. So Jesus, First Minister to his soul, that he was able to minister to his body. 33:06 Bob Carden And I had not really. 33:08 Bob Carden Taken the emotional component of a man or a woman into much account when it came to healing. 33:15 Sean Finnegan That's interesting. So there are psychosomatic conditions as well, where because of somebody's thinking, their body is feeling something. 33:22 Oh. 33:23 Bob Carden There is psychosomatic conditions, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about where your real root problem is, not the presenting problem. 33:26 OK. 33:34 Bob Carden And this is, you know, very true when it comes out in counseling, like anxiety attacks would be one thing. You know what's going on with this? When did they start, what was happening in your life? And many times you'll find, especially in our day and time, Sean, people have rejection in their lives, either from parents, from friends. 33:55 Bob Carden Jesus said he would not leave us as orphans. Well, many people today. 33:59 Bob Carden Feel that they're orphans, that nobody cares and nobody loves, and this is something that we prepare people to receive from God first and foremost by loving them. They come through our doors at Align Ministries. We're going to love you, and we're just going to welcome you. And we're going to love you. People don't come to our church because they like our doctrine. They don't know our doctrine. 34:19 Yeah. 34:20 Bob Carden They said they come because somebody invited them who got blessed and that might be a new person themselves, and they don't even know what we believe. But they do know that they got loved, they got prayed for and then that opens people. 34:32 Bob Carden To be receptive to a real touch from the hand of God. And you know that's what you and I represent that to people we are to be God's image bearers in the world, to touch people with that. So yeah. So I approached that very differently. I I would have considered prior to this that no, if I'm going if I need to know something about Sean. 34:54 Bob Carden God has to tell me it. 34:55 Bob Carden Or I don't need to know it. You know, maybe if you want to, you know, draw a hard line. I suppose that you could sort of operate that way. I don't operate well that way. I don't have a problem talking to people and asking them what's going on. And sometimes, you know, when I was at your fellowship, a year or two ago, I shared about this. 35:15 Bob Carden Young woman? Well, young to me, she's probably your age who had a bad shoulder. So that's what she came for. Prayer for my shoulder is hurting. She had been addressed surgically years before, but it was she still had pain with it. So I prayed for her shoulder. 35:29 Bob Carden And she got minimal improvement. In fact, a lot of times is it really better or you just telling me it's a little better? I'm not going to be offended, right? Yeah. 35:36 Sean Finnegan Yeah, well, in the moment, under the pressure, our minds can change what we're actually feeling. And then, you know, the next day, it hurts just. 35:45 Sean Finnegan As bad as normal, yeah. 35:46 Bob Carden Exactly, you know, so I talked to her further and found out that you will tell me more about your shoulder and I should have this first. Tell me more about her shoulder. Well, it had been her ex-husband who had brutalized her and fractured her shoulder. OK, so here's someone who the man who was to love and protect her. 35:58 Sean Finnegan No. Yeah. 36:05 Bob Carden Was the person who had. 36:07 Bob Carden Dramatically injured her. That sets off an array of emotions, and that opens people up, even in many cases to demonic affliction. I I don't choose to use the word possession because I know many versions read that, but it's not really a good translation or concept of what's going on. 36:28 Bob Carden As the devil doesn't own you as a Christian, but he can certainly harass you. 36:32 Bob Carden And he can harass you more easily if you are outside of God's will or if you have trauma in your life hitting below the belt and kicking you when you're you're down. Well, those, that's what the devil does. So from his point of view, here's this woman who had great trauma. 36:49 Bob Carden In her life and the devil just used that as a way to afflict her. So what I had, I prayed for her again and commanded an afflicting spirit to go, and then she could raise her hand a good bit more. 37:02 Bob Carden But not fully, but I felt that that was as far as we should go that night. It was at a weekend, weekends and family camps is, you know, they're great places to do healings because people are just immersed in love and immersed in the scripture, and they're much more open. So anyway. So she was back again the next morning. And God just said put it on my heart to get her current. 37:24 Bob Carden Husband. 37:25 Bob Carden To come over, he couldn't. I think he was watching the kids the night before to have him come over that morning and I had him put his hand on her shoulder. And then I prayed for her again. And so now we had her current husband, who did love her and was a covering to her with his hand over where the injury was. 37:45 Bob Carden And that was the final piece of the puzzle to allow her full healing to come to pass. And then she had full range of motion in that arm again. 37:54 Bob Carden And you know, I found that out by talking to her and talking to God. I don't think it has to be an either or situation. 38:03 Sean Finnegan That's a great story to hear about somebody who received this healing. Do you have other stories of healings that you've seen over the years just in case somebody who's listening to this is like, yeah, you seem like a nice guy, Bob, but I don't really buy it, you know? Like what? What could you give people by way of evidence? 38:22 Sean Finnegan That this is a legitimate thing that Christians. 38:25 Sean Finnegan Can do today. 38:26 Bob Carden Well, I have my own personal experience with feeling when this is when I first got into the word of God first came to Christ. There was a large meeting in Rye. The town I was in, the head of the way man named Victor Powell, was in teaching a class on the power of the Holy Spirit, and he made healing available. And I had a deviated septum. 38:28 Sean Finnegan Please share yeah. 38:47 Bob Carden Which I had known. I mean, I was going to have to have it surgically addressed at some point when I was in my 20s. 38:53 Bob Carden But I knew I had a deviated septum. I went up, I got prayed for, and they prayed for that, and I felt my nose click in place. 38:59 Wow. 39:00 Bob Carden And I asked my doctor, can you look take a look and see, you know, do I have a deviated septum? Cause it wasn't my primary that had given the diagnosis, it was an ear, nose and throat guy. Years before it goes. No, everything. 39:11 Bob Carden 'S fine up there. 39:13 Bob Carden But I had felt it click, so this was very early in my Christian walk. So. So I had evidence and I might not know the Bible as well as some people, but I know, Bob, this is Bob's experience. And when some when sometimes when people say, well, I don't know what, I don't know enough to to witness the people tell them what God did for you. 39:14 Oh. 39:24 Yeah. 39:31 Bob Carden But there was another one I have any number of incidents that I could relate. Many I I can't because they're not my story, especially when they deal with sensitive issues. But I do have one where the person is giving me the permission to talk about it and that's the young woman who leads young woman again who leads worship at our church. 39:51 Bob Carden She had had eating disorders for much of her life. Many eating disorders have a spiritual component to. 39:58 Bob Carden As a matter of fact, they say, don't listen to Ed. 40:02 Bob Carden The voice. Don't listen to Ed eating disorder. They know that they get harassed about this. And so I was sitting with her and counseling with her, and this came up and came out what I did in that particular case is I told her that, well, I want you to cast away this spirit in the name of Jesus Christ. We had already closed the doors. 40:04 Sean Finnegan OK. 40:22 Bob Carden I mean cause spirits have access because doors are open and maybe you've had rejection. Maybe you've had trauma. Maybe you had sexual abuse or or any number of things. 40:30 Sean Finnegan It's like there needs to be a hook or something to hang on. 40:32 Bob Carden Right, right. So let's close that door first. 40:36 Bob Carden And then once we close that, I said well now you can cast that spirit out, which she did. 40:41 Bob Carden You know, it's it's not a big. 40:42 Bob Carden See, it's not. 40:43 Bob Carden A power. 40:43 But she did. 40:43 Sean Finnegan Not struggle with the eating disorder after. 40:45 Bob Carden No, she's doing great. 40:47 Sean Finnegan For a period of. 40:48 Bob Carden Time. Let me see. 40:50 Bob Carden I would say 11 or 12 years. 40:52 Sean Finnegan Ohh well, that'll qualify. That's as a track. 40:55 Sean Finnegan Record right if. 40:55 Bob Carden Yeah. 40:56 Sean Finnegan It's just like a week or two, you know, it's like, well, we'll see if that comes back around, but 11 or 12 years you've got, you've got. 40:57 Bob Carden No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Ohh she. This woman's transformation is remarkable. And she's now ordained, and she leads our worship team. And she's a wonderful minister. She's ordained as a pastor and a teacher. 41:14 Bob Carden She pastors primarily through counseling and also through her worship ministry, but she's also a wonderful teacher. 41:20 Sean Finnegan So what I hear you saying about healing is that it's not. 41:24 Sean Finnegan One-dimensional you have the the physical, but you also have the emotional and then you have the spiritual correct. You know if there's an unclean spirit involved. 41:25 Bob Carden No. 41:35 Sean Finnegan And when you encounter somebody, you want to minister healing to that person. 41:39 Sean Finnegan What you're doing is looking as holistically as possible, keeping your eyes open. Well, it could be this could be that could be the other thing. Let's just talk to this person. 41:48 Sean Finnegan Find out the facts. 41:50 Sean Finnegan What's going on? 41:52 Sean Finnegan What do you think it is? 41:54 Sean Finnegan Do you ever ask them? 41:55 Bob Carden That I have. 41:56 Sean Finnegan And and do people generally know or they're totally clueless? What do? 41:59 Bob Carden You think sometimes people will will know if they feel it's a spiritual presence? Yeah, but and an important question to ask is when did this happen? When did this start? 42:11 Bob Carden And was anything going on at that particular time in your life? 42:15 Bob Carden And you have to see where God takes you with it, because it's, you know, when when I do counseling, Sean, it's not traditional counseling where I'm poking around in Sean's life and maybe I'll find something that's interesting because I might discover that Sean was bullied in 4th grade. And that may be true, but it also may have nothing to do with who Sean is today. 42:34 Sean Finnegan Right. 42:36 Bob Carden Whereas God knows what has to do with what Sean is today, so we have to bring God into it. And also I want to make sure that the person is empowered because. 42:46 Bob Carden It's not that Bob or Sean has pastors that we're the special people. God is the one in charge, and the special person is Jesus Christ, and we are his representatives and the person I'm praying for has just as much Christ in them as I do, and the the newest St. has just as much authority as I have. 43:07 Bob Carden He might not have as much knowledge and how to utilize that authority, but he has just as much authority, which is why I couldn't encourage Jessica to command that spirit to leave. 43:18 Bob Carden And it did. It had no. 43:19 Sean Finnegan Choice, right? When it comes to exorcism, which is technically the term for what you just described there. 43:26 Sean Finnegan Do you have much experience with this whole tug of war and all the chaos and struggle? It sounds like that's not your experience. 43:34 Bob Carden That is not. 43:34 Sean Finnegan My cause you hear stories about people that have these long multi hour battles with the demon and they're shouting and carrying on. 43:43 Bob Carden Yeah, volume does not increase your authority. 43:47 Bob Carden I am fortunate to have been taught by people. I think global awakening, Randy Clark's ministry. He has some people who work with. 43:54 Bob Carden Him. 43:55 Bob Carden Whose real heart is for deliverance. That's what God has put on their heart. And Neil Anderson is another one who did the ******* breaker. 44:04 Bob Carden And their approach is this is not a power battle. There's no power discrepancy. I mean, the devil would like you to think that he is God's opposite number. He's not God's opposite number. God has no equals. He's not Jesus's opposite number. I mean, OK, he might be Michael's opposite number. He might be the, you know. 44:22 Bob Carden An angelic being. So there's it's not a power struggle and if there is a problem in commanding a spirit to go out, the reason probably is the person has not closed the door. That allows the demon to have access to them. I generally don't like to use the word. 44:42 Bob Carden Exorcism. Just because it has a lot of cultural baggage. I understand that the words derivation is fine, but I just think it has baggage in our culture. So deliverance we want to deliver you from the affliction of spirits. 45:02 Sean Finnegan Well, we're going to have to pause this interview here and continue next time with the rest of the conversation, which I have to admit is pretty juicy. So stay tuned for that next week. But if you'd like to comment, ask any questions or leave feedback come on over to restitutio.org and find Episode 5 seven. 45:20 Sean Finnegan Mindy, my journey into healing ministry with Bob Carden and leave your feedback there on our last episode 569, the cost of truth with Seneca Harbin William Schlegel wrote in this must be some relative of Bill Schlegel. Not really sure but he says thanks guys thoroughly enjoyed the interview. 45:42 Sean Finnegan May God bless Seneca, his family and this book. And of course this is referring to Senecas's book of collected testimonies called the cost of. 45:52 Sean Finnegan Truth. 45:53 Sean Finnegan And just wanted to put a little suggestion out there. Right now I just checked on Amazon, it's only got 1 review, 1 rating and one review. Now. This one review is good. It's five stars, but it's from somebody who was involved in the project. Anna Brown, thank you so much for doing that. She writes. What? Enriching. 46:14 Sean Finnegan And encouraging stories. So thanks Anna, for getting the ball rolling on that, but we really would, I think benefit from rallying behind Seneca and. 46:26 Sean Finnegan And Bill Schlegel, will Barlow, Johnny Barnes, Seth Ross, Suzanne Lakin, Candace Tuggy and Ryan Russell. The authors of this book, and look, if you have gotten this book and you enjoyed it, please come on to Amazon and review it. People do not take books seriously that have only one rating or one review. So let's support our brother. 46:47 Sean Finnegan And if you don't mind, come on to Amazon and look up the cost of truth and write a review. 46:53 Sean Finnegan It's especially effective if you also purchase the book on Amazon, but that's certainly not required. You could purchase it elsewhere as well. Also in the episode last week, someone called Pine Needle Tea, Lady said really enjoyed the lightness of the way you thought about titling the book, how to lose friends and isolate yourself. 47:13 Sean Finnegan :). 47:14 Sean Finnegan Can't say there are not times of serious grief, loss of close fellowship with lifelong church families, but being in love with the one true God, his word, and his Messiah trump all else. I have recently changed my perspective of having to disprove false doctrines which can be so exhausting to simply sharing. 47:35 Sean Finnegan My beliefs directly from the scripture. 47:38 Sean Finnegan I've been through such a roller coaster of emotions, but God has planted my feet on solid ground and richly blessed me with his truth. For anyone out there who struggles with any of these issues, who just needs someone to talk to or pray with, there are people out there. The Unitarian Christian Alliance, UCLA. 47:57 Sean Finnegan Has a database that allows you to connect with others and perhaps find someone close by to share fellowship with. I am looking forward to receiving my copy of your book. The encouragement of reading the testimonies of others is so very. 48:12 Sean Finnegan Helpful. Well, thanks for bringing that up. Yes, the UCLA website is designed to help people connect to each other. You can make a free account and that will give you access to the map and be able to do a search to see if there's anyone near you who also isn't convinced that the Bible teaches the Trinity. And you can be able to find them. 48:35 Sean Finnegan On the map, Unitarian Christian alliance.org, there are now pins. 48:40 Sean Finnegan In most countries around the world, it's actually rather surprising how many biblical Unitarians there are around the world, from lots of different groups and denominations, and lots of individuals that, just maybe they go to an evangelical church or a mainstream church. 49:00 Sean Finnegan Or a mainline church, but they never really bought into the whole Trinity idea, and they did some research and they listed themselves on the map. So. 49:09 Sean Finnegan Yeah. I encourage people if you don't have locals that you can get together with occasionally, ideally once or twice a week, honestly. But even just occasionally, like once a month. Then I would encourage you list yourself on the map so that others can find you. So many people are not yet listed on there. The more we can have on there. 49:29 Sean Finnegan Better also just to mention another map, we have a second map on Living Hope International ministries lgim.org and that is similar to the UCA map, except it excludes people who have other beliefs. So in other words, if you find somebody on the UCA, they might believe in going to heaven, they might. 49:51 Sean Finnegan Be once saved, always saved. They may believe in practicing the Torah. 49:55 Sean Finnegan And and so on and so forth. There's a lot. There's a huge variety. People from all different groups, whereas the LHIM network is not exclusive to people that are necessarily affiliated with LHIM, but it is a list of people who agree on the same core ideas, namely that the scriptures. 50:15 Sean Finnegan Are inspired and authoritative that Yahweh is God alone, that Jesus is Messiah, that the gospel is about the Kingdom, the cross, and the resurrection. That salvation requires perseverance, that we live in the new covenant, that gifts of the spirit are available, that the dead are asleep, that the Kingdom will be on the Earth, and that the wicked will be annihilated. 50:33 Sean Finnegan All right, I got through the list. That's our official statement of faith that we have on lhim.org. And obviously I'm a fan since I wrote the statement of Faith. Yeah. So the nice thing about the lhim.org map is that if you find somebody on there and you agree with those beliefs, it will be much more likely that you will be able to have fellowship with that person. 50:54 Sean Finnegan Whereas somebody on the UCA map could believe in a lot of different things, not to say you couldn't have some level of fellowship, but it might be a little limited. The downside of the lim.org map is that they're just not nearly as many people on it, although in the US there's a fair amount. So. 51:10 Sean Finnegan Although in the US and the Philippines and the Congo countries in Puerto Rico, you know there are some hotspots around the world where there are a number of pins on the map anyhow, just figured I'd go ahead and mention a couple of maps while we're on the subject. I do still get regular emails from people saying, hey, I just came to this. 51:30 Sean Finnegan Understanding I read your Kingdom journey book, I always used to believe in going to heaven, and now I'm thinking about living on the earth forever with Jesus reigning on the Earth and reigning with him. 51:41 Sean Finnegan Where do I go to church? Where do I find others in my area and so that that's what these maps are for? They are for people to connect to other people. They're not micromanaged in the sense that we don't vet all communications. People are free to just communicate directly with each other. And just so you know. 52:01 Sean Finnegan In the case of both maps, we don't put your actual location on the map. That would be crazy unless you're a church. If you're a church, the actual location is there. 52:11 Sean Finnegan Or a house church. The actual location is there because obviously people are going to use that to find it, but if you're an individual, the location is just by ZIP code, so some random location within the ZIP code that you put and you don't have to put your actual name. You can put a handle on there if you're concerned about privacy because this really is just like an e-mail type. 52:32 Sean Finnegan The system where people can e-mail you and the goal for all this stuff is to take isolated individuals and and give them. 52:42 Sean Finnegan Them communities, small group communities and then to take those small group communities and turn them into weekly home fellowships or house churches and then to take those home fellowships and turn them into brick and mortar churches that are self-sustaining. And so this is a work that is already happening in our time, so excited about it. 53:02 Sean Finnegan And I hope that you can be part of it. And so you can do that by listing yourself on the various maps. Unitarian, Christian alliance.org, as well as lahim.org. 53:13 Sean Finnegan And you know, maybe there's some other maps that I don't even know about that you can list yourself on, but this is just one of the things that we need to do. We need to be findable. So then we can gather and people can be strengthened and encouraged through community. So that's it for today. Today is also. 53:32 Sean Finnegan The first day of the Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference, which I am at. 53:39 Sean Finnegan And I am thrilled to be speaking on it this year. So that will be happening either tomorrow or the next day, either Friday or Saturday of this weekend, and I'm going to be presenting on Isaiah 9/6 and looking at a theophoric approach to that text in concert. 53:59 Sean Finnegan With my presentation, which only those who are there in person will be able to. 54:04 Sean Finnegan Hey. 54:06 Sean Finnegan I also am releasing my paper actually probably by the time this comes out, we'll already have released that paper on the rest studio site. So if you want to read my paper on Isaiah 96, go into a great deal of detail and hopefully it will encourage you and help you as this. 54:26 Sean Finnegan Verse does come up from time to time, especially during the holiday season, because a brother Handel and his oratorio the Messiah, which is I think, magnificent. 54:36 Sean Finnegan By the way. 54:37 Sean Finnegan So yeah, as people bring it up, refer them to this article. It goes in depth into what the text is all about. Ioffer a number of translations from Christian, from Jewish, from the Academy, from scholars, and then also my own translation so that you can see. 54:57 Sean Finnegan What's going on in the text? What the options are and be able to make your own informed decision on how to read it? And Full disclosure, I have changed my position so I'm no longer seeing Isaiah 9/6 as. 55:10 Sean Finnegan The Messiah representing God and being called the Mighty Guy because he represents God. I'm now seeing it as him. 55:18 Sean Finnegan Bearing the name Mighty God and Eternal Father, not because he represents God necessarily, but because that's the way theophoric names work. And if you're interested in that, come to rest of studio.org click on the articles and you'll be able to find. 55:33 Sean Finnegan There eventually might be like a month or two. The talk will come out and there will be a YouTube of it. Assuming nothing goes wrong with the technology, which thankfully we have hired a professional and these these talks have all come out very well in the past and so hopefully we'll be able to get that out and I will post that. 55:54 Sean Finnegan Here on rest Studio as well, once it comes out alright. So if you want the preview the real nitty gritty in-depth article that's already available on restitutio.org, take a look at that. If you're going to UCA con, I hope to see you. What today or tomorrow, today or tomorrow? And if you haven't listed yourself on. 56:14 Sean Finnegan The UCA map and the Lahim map. 56:17 Sean Finnegan Go do it. 56:19 Sean Finnegan When you're done with this podcast, Jump Online, make an account. Both sites allow you to make free accounts. Of course, you can donate to either ministry as well, but that is not required to make an account and put yourself on the map. And thanks to everyone who's already done that. If you'd like to support restitutio, of course you can do that. 56:39 Sean Finnegan At restitutio.org, I'll catch you next week and remember the truth. 56:45 Sean Finnegan Has nothing to fear.