This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 568: The Witch of Endor and the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable with Dustin Smith and Sam Tideman This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Transcript 568 Dustin Smith and Sam Tideman on intermediate state 2.mp3 Transcript 00:00 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to restitutio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:12 Sean Finnegan Last week, Dustin Smith and Sam Tiedeman discussed the intermediate state what happens after death, but before resurrection on the last day. 00:21 Sean Finnegan Although most Christians affirm the folk idea of going immediately to heaven or hell at Death, Smith and Tiedeman argue that the Bible teaches the dead are in shall or Hades. 00:33 Sean Finnegan However, they disagree on what's happening there. Smith holds to soul sleep, while Tiedeman believes the dead are conscious. We went through many scriptures last time, but today we'll discuss 2 critical texts on this subject, the Witch of Endor and the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus here now is episode. 00:53 Sean Finnegan 568 The Witch of Endor and the rich Man and Lazarus parable with Dustin Smith and Sam Teitelman. 01:07 Sean Finnegan How do you guys feel about talking about the Witch of Endor? That's that's always a blast. I mean, there's just. 01:14 Sam Tideman Who doesn't love a good witch vendor story? 01:15 Sean Finnegan There's nothing better than a, you know, Sunday night conversation about the Witch of Endor. And I suppose Halloween is coming up. So it's first Samuel 28. Three Samuel had died. And then of course Saul went to go inquire of what do they call it, a medium, a woman who. 01:34 Sean Finnegan The medium and of course, he had banished all the all these type of people. And so it was kind of difficult to find her. And then his servants found her. And he goes into disguise and he says bring up Samuel, for me is what he says in second. First Samuel 2811 and then says when the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. 01:55 Sean Finnegan And the woman said to Saul, why have you deceived me? You are. 01:58 Sean Finnegan That's all. So definitely a really interesting moment. It seems like the woman didn't know that this was actually Saul talking to. 02:05 Sam Tideman Her and almost doesn't want to do it, so which seems to cut against the the deception idea that this is a fraud or a hoax or something. She seems reluctant to even wanna do this in front of Saul. 02:06 Dustin Smith And then. 02:08 Sean Finnegan Yes, please hesitant. 02:18 Sean Finnegan And the king said to her have No Fear. And then she says, I see this is the new revised standard version. I see a divine being coming up out of the ground. And that's the word, Elohim, as you rightly said, say. 02:31 Sean Finnegan And he said, what is his appearance? And then she says in verse 14, an old man is coming up. He's wrapped in a robe. And I guess that's enough description to identify Samuel. And then it says the text says in verse 15. Then Samuel said to Saul, why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And then Saul responds and so forth. 02:53 Sean Finnegan So Dustin, I don't know if you'd be willing to work us through, but give us your thoughts and your take on. 03:00 Sean Finnegan The Witch of Endor. 03:02 Dustin Smith Yeah. So this is you always feel like you're taking your life in your hands whenever you read this. That's why it doesn't get preached. 03:07 Dustin Smith On very, very. 03:07 Dustin Smith Often because if you word this in the wrong way, you're gonna be accused of all sorts of bad things. But hey, that's all right. You know I'm not perfect. I'm convinced by the way that first Samuel really should be categorized as what we would call. 03:22 Dustin Smith Deuteronomistic history Deuteronomistic history is, of course. 03:26 Dustin Smith The historians writing the history all the way up to the exile based out of the theology of the Book of Deuteronomy. OK, so we have something here that very clearly the author, which is clearly not. Samuel Samuel didn't write first Samuel, that Samuel's been dead for several chapters and obviously first Samuel, second Samuel were all one book. 03:45 Dustin Smith Unfortunately. 03:46 So. 03:47 Dustin Smith We're talking about is dead itself here, so the author Herber is is indicating this really, really interesting point that I don't think he agrees with. He doesn't think that this is a good moral, righteous godly thing that Saul, the king is is doing. OK. This is almost like the the the final straw. 04:07 Dustin Smith That indicates that Saul is not the rightful King, and David should be the rightful king. OK, so whatever's happening here is not something that is prescribed. It's not something that is welcomed. It's not something that is. 04:20 Dustin Smith This that the authors trying to say this is normative. Even the chronicler doesn't reproduce this story. OK, either he doesn't know what to do with it, or he doesn't think it's relevant enough to to repeat it. OK, and there's some reasons for that. OK, so. 04:35 Dustin Smith Being part of the Deuteronomistic history, let me go back to Deuteronomy and just kind of see the sort of language that we actually have here. So Deuteronomy 18. 04:42 Dustin Smith Verse 10. 04:44 Dustin Smith There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass to the fire. One who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, verse 11 or one who casts a spell or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 05:05 Dustin Smith Why verse 12 forever? Does these things is to testable to Yahweh, and because of these to testable things, y'all your God will drive them out before you. OK, so. 05:16 Dustin Smith We already told by God, by Moses here, who's speaking here in Deuteronomy. This is something that you're not supposed to do. OK? And it seems that you're not supposed to do it because it's possible that it could be done. OK, now, how did this actually happen? The text doesn't tell us, and that's what drives interpreters. 05:35 Dustin Smith Crazy is that it doesn't give us enough information. In first Samuel 28. So what can we cautiously. 05:41 Dustin Smith Say and I think. 05:42 Dustin Smith Sam has really, Sam, not Samuel. Even though I'm pretty sure Sam is named after Samuel, I think Sam has rightly pointed out that look when Samuel is talking, it seems as if what he's saying is legitimate prophecy. It seems as if you know if if Samuel is a prophet, God is still speaking through him or working through him. He is still a prophet even in. 05:48 That. 06:01 Dustin Smith His death, OK. 06:02 Dustin Smith But it seems that this witch of Endor, this medium this. 06:07 Dustin Smith Has actually conjured him up from the dead. 06:11 Dustin Smith Samuel seems to be like, why have you disturbed me? Which I think to me suggests that he was sleeping. He was resting, he was unconscious and someone woke him up from the dead in a way that he wasn't expecting and no one else was expecting. And we have no other passage prior to this to indicate that this sort of stuff has happened. Nor is there any other passage. 06:32 Dustin Smith With this, either in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament of someone who is dead that's now conjured up by medium, so the only thing that we have, So what do what do you have at that point? I I think the fact that he's able to be conjured up shows that there's something that is, we would say, demonically empowering the work of this witch of Endor, which is why she's a witch and why. 06:52 Dustin Smith I think Deuteronomy prohibits. 06:54 Dustin Smith That sort of behavior, the text doesn't say that, but this is just me. This I'm I'm acknowledging my speculation. I'm I'm going beyond the text here and I'm just speculating at that particular point. OK, he's called a divine being. He's just called an Elohim. But this seems to be the only place in the Hebrew Bible to wear a dead person conjured up is called an Elohim. So it's like, what do you do when you only have one occurrence of it? 07:17 Dustin Smith Out of 6800 Times Now, the Mexicans acknowledge it, but they're like we don't really know what to do with it. It's just whatever. 07:24 Dustin Smith E-mail is at that. 07:25 Dustin Smith Point. But he has been brought up. Verse 11. You're bringing me up? Verse 15. Bringing him up. And there's this interesting thing in verse 16. I was actually just reading this in Hebrew, just to kind of prepare for this. Samuel said. Why then do you ask me? He's talking to Saul. Since Yahweh has to pardon from you. 07:45 Dustin Smith And has become your adversary. But if you know the derivation of. 07:50 Dustin Smith False name shahul means to ask and got that name because they were asking for King. So it's interesting here saying it's like, why do you ask me? You know, the final pun. There is a way to kind of again acknowledge his own guilt in. 08:04 Dustin Smith And going after the thing that a good king is not supposed to do, a good king is not supposed to go and to entreat a medium and a spiritist. So I do think that he was concerned up here, but I don't think that means necessarily. 08:17 Dustin Smith That he was. 08:18 Dustin Smith Conscious at death, I think that he was asleep and that somehow he was conjured up here. But again, I'm just speculating at this point because the text just doesn't tell us this sort of stuff there. 08:29 Sean Finnegan What what I find interesting about your response to Dustin is that it it presupposes that physicalism is wrong. 08:36 Sean Finnegan Which is the position I've moved towards myself, and I could speak for Sam. I think that we both were raised as physicalists, which is the idea that the soul and the body both die, and that there is nothing that survives death whatsoever. And then in the resurrection, the person is essentially recreate. 08:56 Sean Finnegan Needed and in some versions of our past, for whatever reason, they didn't believe the using up the parts of the body that are still remaining. It just sort of like recreation like ex nihilo or whatever which you know these have some problems. One problem that I have with the physicalism position is the continuity of identity issue. 08:57 Ah, OK. 09:17 Sean Finnegan Which any intro to the philosophy of science will tell you is a major issue, because if you have a dead person. 09:25 Sean Finnegan Who ceases to exist in every sense other than their like physical remains decaying or whatever. Then you know, 100 years later you recreate that person in a resurrected body. Whether you use the leftover stuff or not. 09:40 Sean Finnegan That's a clone that just is a clone. That's not, that's not. 09:44 Sam Tideman It's not you, yeah. 09:45 Sean Finnegan Because there there's no continuity of identity through that death experience. So that's what's moved me and I think I mentioned that in my book. That's what's moved me towards a dualist position that sees the soul as an existing entity throughout the intermediate state, which. 10:02 Sean Finnegan Really, you have to presuppose in order to even follow you, Dustin, on that little journey you took where basically you just accepted the text at face value that a dead person is wake up able if if able to be awoken in the intermediate state. So I just wanted to mention that just for for listeners. 10:22 Sean Finnegan Cause I know a lot of folks coming from my background. 10:25 Sean Finnegan Our physicalists and there are other groups that hold that position as well, and a physicalist would presumably respond by saying something like. 10:33 Sean Finnegan Well, I don't know how God's going to do it, but he said he's gonna do it. He's all powerful. He'll figure it out. You know, that to me is just not satisfying personally. So, Sam, I don't know if you're gonna disagree with what Dustin just said there. 10:46 Sam Tideman Yeah, what Dustin said, I I very I think you hit that nail on the head, Sean that I grew up basically thinking that the. 10:53 Sam Tideman So was the brain at work more or less? And so then, when you die, if you got a bullet through your brain, then your body dies and your soul is just like not around. 11:04 Sam Tideman And I've even heard analogies of like it's stored on a hard drive somewhere or something like that, or as as vague, you know, ideas of how this could work and then gets put into like, a new, you know, the CD-ROM gets put into a new computer or something like that or something like that. And so maybe even then, there's still a continuity of identity somehow kind of with your soul being. 11:24 Sam Tideman Analogize to a CD or a hard drive or something like that, but I think that Dustin and I might be closer than I honestly expected based off of his explanation. I mean, he was acknowledging that necromancy isn't wrong because it's fraud. It's wrong because it's kind of real. 11:39 Sam Tideman In a certain kind of way, and I think you know the Old Testament is clear not to give you instructions because it doesn't want you going around and doing necromancy and conjuring up Samuel. That's the thing that you could do, but it's wrong to do, like adultery is a thing that you can do, but it's wrong to do it. And necromancy is a thing that one could do. It's real, but don't do it and that. 11:59 Sam Tideman That's sort of what's going on in this passage, I guess, like where Dustin and I are disagreeing. 12:03 Sam Tideman Is like how? 12:05 Sam Tideman Awake or conscious was Samuel prior to his stirring through the witch vendors neck remains. 12:11 Sam Tideman I'm honestly a little bit surprised that it seems like Dustin is closer to me on the this passage than I was expecting. I was expecting an argument that this is fraud or fakery, or demonic imitation or something like that. 12:24 Sean Finnegan Yeah, I mean, let's use an analogy just for a second and see if what Dustin thinks on this. We have this idea of being in a. 12:31 Sean Finnegan Coma. 12:32 Sean Finnegan And when you're in a coma. 12:33 Sean Finnegan But it's like you're dead, but you're still breathing and there's still brain activity, and it's still possible to wake the person up, whereas like an actually dead person, unless there's a miracle, that person's not going to be alive again. So as a coma is to the body, so the intermediate state is to the soul. So it's it exists. 12:54 Sean Finnegan Maybe there is some sort of dream like this to it. If if Sam's right about that. 13:00 Sean Finnegan Uh, but it's not the same as being awake. We all agree it's not awake, cuz if it's awake, it's not asleep. And the Bible says we're asleep. At least Dawn 12 two, I think is very strong on that. It's Dustin rightly pointed out, but maybe there's a there's a technology and maybe that's not the best word for it, but there's a technology that's spiritual beings. 13:20 Sean Finnegan Have access to that can kind of mess around. 13:24 Sean Finnegan Along the side, like going around a back entrance or something into this state where things are not supposed to be engaged with and that there is like some way that they are able to reanimate the soul in a sense and mess with the dead. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. Does that. What do you think? 13:44 Sean Finnegan Just I'll give. 13:45 Sean Finnegan To the the mic. 13:46 Dustin Smith Yeah. We obviously do have examples of people that have died and they've come back to life. We have the example of Lazarus, who was able to recognize his sisters, recognize Jesus, and to go on and to invite Jesus over, you know, that happened in John 11 in John Chapter 12. They're over at his house and he's reclining there next to Jesus. There's some. 14:06 Dustin Smith Continuity there after about four days of death at least. And then of course, we have the best example, which is to use himself. And there's clearly, obviously there's a new creation that's taking place, but they recognize him. There's still the marks on his hands and his feet. They're able to see him, and yet he's still energized by the spirit. He's no longer energized by flesh. 14:26 Dustin Smith And I haven't speculated on this as much as you all have, but I I don't know if there's a fault in saying that if God can create humanity from the dust of the ground, why is he incapable of raising them from the dust of the ground, especially if they go to the dust? 14:40 Dustin Smith When they die. 14:41 Dustin Smith I don't think that's that's unreasonable to say, but I'm trying to work with what the text. 14:46 Dustin Smith Actually has for us. And again, I know that there's lots of other texts out there, but. 14:50 Dustin Smith Trying to really pay attention and really trying to understand what the biblical texts are trying to say, and of course I point out my initial points. 14:58 Dustin Smith That you know. 14:59 Dustin Smith The dead are unconscious with several. 15:02 Dustin Smith Souls are mortal and the Bible has no problem saying that souls die. You know dozens and dozens and dozens of times. And Jesus himself believed that and that this. 15:12 Dustin Smith The state of the dead being. 15:15 Dustin Smith And the soul being dead is described as sleep, which is something that Jesus believed and taught. And so I think whatever she's believed, I think because he's continuing to use that sleep language he's carrying over that understanding of at least that particular Jewish view that we see very clearly in what I think, again, are the clear. 15:17 Deep. 15:34 Dustin Smith Simple Old Testament text. Nobody's going to convince me that first Samuel is a clear, simple, straightforward text. 15:42 Sean Finnegan Very good. Sam, did you want to come back to that or should we? 15:45 Sam Tideman Go to first, Peter. 15:46 Sam Tideman Three. Well, I I feel like it might be interesting to talk about the parable of the rich man and Lance Orus. Yeah, Luke. Yeah, 16. That is because I think that that this is something that I feel like is I'm interested. 15:51 Sean Finnegan OK, Luke 16. 16:01 Sam Tideman To hear Dustins's take on that, because I can understand how Dustin could be like, look, necromancy is where you take an unconscious soul and make it conscious temporarily, and that's a bad act of W. 16:12 Sam Tideman Craft and that that is compatible with his view and I think a a justifiable and reasonable interpretation of the passage. But I think that view will struggle with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in a way that doesn't struggle with the witch event or. 16:27 Sean Finnegan All right. Well, let's do it. Luke 1619. There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen. 16:35 Sean Finnegan And who feasted sumptuously every day and at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by angels to be with Abraham. 16:54 Sean Finnegan The rich man also died and was buried. 16:57 Sean Finnegan In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side, he called out Father Abraham have mercy on me, send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and fool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames. But Abraham said, child. Remember that during your lifetime. 17:18 Sean Finnegan You received your good things and Lazarus and like men are evil things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 17:28 Sean Finnegan Besides all this, between us there is a great chasm that has been fixed so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us. 17:39 Sean Finnegan And then he begs him to send back him to his five brothers, and the response comes if they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced. Even if someone rises from the dead. So, Dustin, why don't you give us some thoughts on the rich man and Lazarus? 17:56 Dustin Smith Well, I've produced a full length video on this that's an hour long, and so I'm going to try to summarize that as best we can. Let's just kind of get a couple of things right off the bat with it. This parable says nothing about the soul. 18:10 Dustin Smith Nothing about his spirit. Nothing about heaven. 18:12 Dustin Smith Hell or paradise. OK, so again, if we're asking the question, which is what we originally were talking about, you know our souls conscious, this passage doesn't tell us anything on it one way or another. OK, it's interesting to talk about, OK, because it seems to say something very different than what we have in a lot of other texts. OK. 18:31 Dustin Smith Couple of things to indicate there that when scholars look at this and they compare it to relevant literature that was aware to Jews in the 1st century, we have a document, an Egyptian document called the stories of the high Priest of Memphis. 18:45 Dustin Smith And when you look at the commentaries, they're going to say that, hey, there been a lot of people that have noticed comparisons or similarities between this Egyptian story that deals with a rich man. 18:58 Dustin Smith Who didn't have a lot of good works and a poor man who had a lot of good works and the poor man was elevated to an exalted position. But the rich man was demoted and he couldn't have anything to drink. He couldn't have anything to eat. The poor man was wrapped up in a mat there, lot of like similarities with this particular story. And and that's that's the the common scholarly. 19:18 Dustin Smith To you by just looking at comparative religions and and the suggestion seems to be and it's difficult to do without actually reading it, but people can go and buy it. You know, I got a copy of it right here. 19:28 Dustin Smith By last name, Griffith is the author of it. Stories of the high priest of. 19:32 Dustin Smith And you can see and you can compare and it seems that what Jesus has done is that in the midst of all of these parables where he's trying to contrast. 19:43 Dustin Smith The views that we. 19:44 Dustin Smith See in chapter 15 verse one, because in Luke 15 and Luke 16 we have 5 parables and the five parables are all trying to demonstrate why is it that Jesus is time with repentant tax collectors and sinners. 19:54 Dustin Smith All of. 19:59 Dustin Smith Instead of, you know, being accepted by the Pharisees and the scribes, so we know the Pharisees are described as a rich man in the context of the passage. 20:07 Dustin Smith And So what I think Jesus is doing here, this is what I think he's doing is I think he's taking this this common folk tale story that a lot of people are knowing he's changing it and he's modifying it. I I'm agreeing with Sam that he's not inventing anything. 20:21 Dustin Smith Out of whole cloth. OK, but he's not teaching the afterlife. He's not teaching what happens to his soul because the word soul doesn't appear there. He's continuing to use this in a way to teach the. 20:31 Dustin Smith Variables that indicate that if you repent at what he's actually doing, then you're actually doing what God wants you to do, and if not, judgment is already hanging over you right now, and this is very consistent with Luke's own theology where he's heavily judging rich people and he's, you know, praising the poor people we already had this with John the Baptist. 20:53 Dustin Smith Well, but there's an interesting detail there that I think a lot of people tend to read a little too literally at the very, very end. And I'm actually curious to hear what Sean thinks about this. 21:01 Dustin Smith At the very, very end and verse 31 if they don't listen to most in the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. OK. And I think what most people default to doing is. 21:12 Dustin Smith Well, they're not gonna listen to the one person who has risen from the dead. Namely Jesus. OK, but but I don't know if in the context, bodily resurrection, namely, Jesus, his bodily resurrection is the closest reference, OK, because earlier in chapter 15, we have the parable of the two. 21:29 Dustin Smith Runs toward the Sun was dead and came back to life by converting, presumably by formerly being a Sinner, and has now listened to the preaching of Jesus. He's accepted the Gospel of Kingdom, and now he's responded, and there's this radical reversal. OK, so maybe rising from the dead is a metaphor. 21:50 Dustin Smith For conversion, OK, which again would? 21:53 Dustin Smith Indicate that this is dealing with the afterlife. It's just a way of kind of talking about here's judgment that's already coming upon these guys, this Egyptian folk tale in a new way, consistent with geniuses, creative, parabolic storytelling, and the hope, of course, is to get the rich man, namely the Pharisees, to finally repent. 22:00 Dustin Smith Using. 22:13 Dustin Smith And to believe in the message of the Kingdom so that they will actually be considered a child of Abraham, Abraham called him a child. And we know that a child of Abraham in loose gospel is a way of talking about a converted person, namely Zach. 22:28 Dustin Smith This so I think this has a lot more to deal with the preaching of Jesus and responding to his message of the Kingdom than it actually has to do with the afterlife. Again, it deals with nothing involving souls whatsoever. So that's my quick summary. And I know I'm not doing justice to it, but I have taken some time to think about this. 22:44 Sean Finnegan Sam, you want to come back on that at all? 22:46 Sam Tideman Sure. I I mean, while I agree that the main thrust of this parable is not to give a detailed exposition of the details of the afterlife. 22:56 Sam Tideman That's not the purpose of the parable, but just as the same way you know when Jesus talks about sheep and goats, he's not giving lessons in animal husbandry, but he's using real things as examples. In his parable, almost everything I can think of that's in the Jesus parable, from coins to Nets to fathers and sons. 23:16 Sam Tideman And vineyards and etc. He uses things that are real and that the his audience would know about. 23:22 Sam Tideman As examples to demonstrate the moral lessons that he is trying to teach in his parables. So I agree that the the main purpose of the parable is a moral lesson about social status and about listening to the dead and stuff like that, but that it still seems to use this common belief of the afterlife that we can see in other places. 23:44 Sam Tideman As the setting and the structure by which the parable is told and doesn't, saying it doesn't mention souls or any words like that and you know fair enough. But like what does it mean that someone who is dead is getting carried by angels to Abraham's side? What exactly is getting carried there? I don't think it's his. 24:04 Sam Tideman Money. I think it's just kind of assumed and understood that this is the soul of the poor man who's being carried down to Abraham. 24:12 Sam Tideman Aside and again when you read other Christian descriptions of the afterlife from the first couple centuries, they will detail this out and they always, as far as I'm aware, took this as something that was teaching actual content about the afterlife. In addition to being whatever moral lesson it might be. And I think again, some of the details even that doesn't talked about. 24:34 Sam Tideman If someone goes to them from the dead again, the dead is like a description of the people and the souls who are in Hades or in. 24:43 Sam Tideman Shale, the dead and shale are almost kind of synonymous, you could say the dead are the people. Shale is the place. The dead are the people who are in the place. But there's a certain sense in which those two things are very related. And again, I also agree it's not necessarily saying resurrection when the rich man is asking for Abraham's permission to visit. 25:03 Sam Tideman His living family members, it's almost like he wants to be a ghost that wants to go up to the the above world and the non underworld. 25:10 Sam Tideman To warn his family members. Hey, change what you're doing or else you'll come down here and be like me and I'm in the bad place. I'm. I'm experiencing this torment. Go and be like Lazarus. Who's over there in the comfortable place. And again, this is not in heaven. I am not saying that anyone in this story, from the Angel to the rich man to Lazarus. 25:30 Sam Tideman Abraham, no one in here is in heaven. Everyone here is in the subterranean. Hades are. 25:35 Sam Tideman I have a quote. I won't read the whole thing, but from Tertullian. Executing this passage in his book on the Soul, he deals specifically with the rich man and Lazarus, and he's talking about some Christians who want to allegorize it or treat it as merely a parable. But the people that he's arguing with are gnostic Christians who believe your soul goes to heaven. 25:55 Sam Tideman When you die and who didn't like this parable? Because it teaches the opposite of? 26:00 Sam Tideman That so tritonian in defending the idea that your soul does not go to heaven when you die points to the rich man and Lazarus as a real parable that it's teaching real things about the afterlife, to show that your soul goes down as opposed to up when you die. And so I think that's interesting and revealing as far as I can tell. 26:20 Sam Tideman I am unaware of any Christians who, in the early centuries did not take this as something like a literal. You could say description of the afterlife. 26:32 Sean Finnegan OK. Well, we're just about out of time, guys, believe it or not, it has flown by Dustin. Would you like to give us some sort of concluding remarks? I'm sure you'd rather come back on Luke 16, but you know, if you could just sort of summarize overall where you stand with this and how you see the whole subject? 26:52 Dustin Smith Yeah, I think it's we've demonstrated with a lot of these passages that we could talk about them for a long time. And like I mentioned at the beginning, some of these passages are complex. I get that, but. 27:05 Dustin Smith When you are. 27:06 Dustin Smith Interpreting the Bible. 27:07 Dustin Smith Speaking you don't start with the most difficult passage is in order to build your theology. OK. If I want to understand who Jesus is, I don't start with. 27:15 Dustin Smith John, 11. I don't do that. 27:16 Dustin Smith OK. You know, I start with with with several of the passes that are clear straightforward. 27:20 Dustin Smith But they're easy to see, and we see several examples of them. Lots and lots of other examples of. 27:26 Dustin Smith Which is why I start off by indicating that there are dozens of passages that say that the dead are unconscious and the grave. 27:33 Dustin Smith OK. And I indicated that. 27:36 Dustin Smith The souls are mortal, and the souls can die, and there are probably over 100 texts. I didn't even look at all of them in the Hebrew Bible that indicate that souls will die and they're not immortal, and that this sort of description is described as sleep, and that that's what the New Testament authors and the early Christians. 27:51 Dustin Smith Also believed and taught. 27:53 Dustin Smith And that look, if we're talking about death, that doesn't mean life. 27:57 Dustin Smith You know, if if these people are actually dead to say that, well, they're actually conscious, that implies that they're actually alive. And I just think that those are opposites. I don't. I don't think that those two terms can mean the same thing. So my approach, of course, still is my approach is. 28:12 Dustin Smith That I want. 28:13 Dustin Smith To do the best I can. 28:14 Dustin Smith And with the many passages that are clear and straightforward and to very cautiously, carefully not avoid and overlook these difficult passages, but let's let's take them on carefully, humbly, prayerfully, and in dialogue with other people so that other people can point out where we're not taking seriously all of these conversations. And I think that's what this conversation. 28:35 Dustin Smith As well and I hope to continue the conversation in the future. And Sam, I I applaud your very Christian gentleman's demeanor in this whole thing. 28:45 Sean Finnegan Sam, you want to have any? Do you have any concluding thoughts? 28:49 Sam Tideman Sure. I mean like I'm finding this stuff is difficult to wrestle with as anyone and I know that the this sort of train of thought might be new or uncomfortable for a part of your audience, especially anyone who had a background similar to ours and that I was sort of, I could say, awakened to this sort of idea of reading through the church. 29:09 Sam Tideman Others and I I found it confusing and. 29:11 Sam Tideman Difficult to wrestle. 29:12 Sam Tideman This one of the things I like to do is to kind of disprove the Trinity through historical analysis and looking at the beliefs of the early Christians and using that to help sort of triangulate with the New Testament to help us understand what it meant to the early church. And I have to say, if I were to follow that same process for this subject. 29:33 Sam Tideman I would most likely come to the view that I've been arguing for today. As troubling as I might find it, because as far as I can tell, I I can't see any early Christians who had the view that most aligns with what Dustin is supporting. 29:50 Sam Tideman And I think that some of these passages are maybe not as difficult as we like to imagine them to be in a certain reading, there's really nothing actually that confusing about the rich man and Lazarus in a certain way. It really is actually kind of straightforward when you compare that to other things written at the same time, there is a very easy plain reading. 30:09 Sam Tideman That talks about what I'm saying, and I do hear the thrust of what might be pushed back against me, that I'm sort of toning down what it means to die. 30:19 Sam Tideman Right. And I'm sensitive to that point. I think that that's a good point and the best answer that I've come up with to response to that question would be something like our first death is a bodily death and it's the second death that is the full spiritual death that we are to fear. And that in the same way. 30:40 Sam Tideman That our bodily life now isn't the fullness of life in the future, that we will have in our spiritual existence and the resurrection our death now isn't the fullness of death that the unjust will experience at the final judge. 30:53 Sam Tideman And that death now is almost like a foreshadow, the way that our life now is also like a foreshadow of true life, and that that might be an interesting way to sort of deal with that objection. So I would encourage the audience to think about this. I think that this is something that good Christians can have fellowship around but disagree about. I think that this is a complicated subject. 31:14 Sam Tideman It's a little bit messy in the Bible. I I agree with Dustin that there's unclarity and it's hard to make sense of all the historical record on this. 31:22 Sam Tideman And so I think that people shouldn't be disfellowshipped or anything along these lines for having serious inquiry into this particular question. And it's something that can be dealt with charitably and disagreement. 31:34 Sean Finnegan Yeah, yeah, it it's really an interesting conversation because so often the options are. 31:42 Sean Finnegan Going to heaven when we die or going to hell when we die, and that's what everybody knows. That's what everybody talks about. 31:51 About. 31:52 Sean Finnegan And, you know, even the stupid show, the good place, you know, that's their working premise, which is hard not to think of that silly show while we're having this conversation. And Sam, just like mentioned the bad place, but. 32:05 Sean Finnegan Yeah. So we're not talking about heaven. We're not talking about hell. We're talking about some other, almost like, a Hellenistic idea, but I think Sam's point is that this was also a Jewish idea, and Dustin brought in, of course, the Egyptian myth as well. So it seems to be transcultural. 32:23 Sean Finnegan The Jewishness of it seems to be much more on the side of sleep, not just as a reference to the dead body, but as a reference to the the intermediate state, but that that doesn't mean that there couldn't be disturbances to that which, you know, one way to synthesize, which I I guess as a moderator, I'm I'm playing that role. 32:43 Sean Finnegan Right now, however uncomfortable I am one way to synthesize and I'm not going to die on this hill is to think that there's like a a slow hibernate process that initiates at the moment. 32:57 Sean Finnegan Death. That would then explain a lot of these near death experiences ndes and that you could kind of see what's going on and then it's fade to black while you're unconscious. Unless some naughty demon. 33:13 Sean Finnegan Messes with you, man. I don't know. I'm not comfortable with that, but I don't think we're going to solve all the problems today. But I do appreciate your I right neck tone, both of you and your work on this. Let's just keep the conversation going. Maybe we can get a 2 view. 33:29 Sean Finnegan Book out of this down the line. Who knows, right or three views. 33:34 Sean Finnegan We'll get somebody. 33:34 Sean Finnegan Else too, but thanks for your time today guys. 33:38 Sam Tideman Yeah. Thank you, Sean. 33:39 Dustin Smith Yeah. Take care guys. 33:48 Sean Finnegan Well, that brings this interview to a close. What did you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find Episode 568 The Witch of Endor and the rich Man and Lazarus parable and leave your. 34:01 Sean Finnegan Comments and feedback there. 34:03 Sean Finnegan Well, originally that conversation was actually 1 long recording, and I figured I'd break it into two sections and I wasn't really able to break it evenly. This 1 ended up being a little shorter than the other one and taken by itself, it seems like we didn't go into the rich man Lazarus nearly as much as we could. 34:24 Sean Finnegan I think Sam, however, did make his. 34:26 Sean Finnegan Case and that what he's arguing for is a face value reading, so there's not really much to say there as far as Dustin, though he didn't really get to respond as much as I think many of you might like him to have responded. So I will go ahead and put his presentation in the show notes for this episode. 34:46 Sean Finnegan He has a 44 minute video called the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus critically examine. 34:53 Sean Finnegan And if you are looking to go more in detail with exegesis on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus from the perspective of an unconscious intermediate state, then that is where I would refer you to go. Now. As for comments, I have been getting in quite a few comments on the last episode of the Dead Conscious with Dustin. 35:13 Sean Finnegan About the same team in Part 1 of the conversation you just heard someone named Ziad writes in on the Restitutio website saying thank you for this series on the Kingdom journey. I also love the book. Sam and Dustin are so knowledgeable, I have to admit that I was lost for a few of the parts. 35:31 Sean Finnegan Here are some basic questions. Let me pause you there as Saad and then we can continue with your comment. It's really hard to figure out at what level to have discourse and what I learned early on with this podcast is that people aren't looking for the kind of content they can get on a Sunday morning. They're looking for the kind of content that is. 35:53 Sean Finnegan More at a college level, a little more in depth than would normally be in, for example, a sermon that I would preach or somebody else would. 36:01 Sean Finnegan So I apologize for sometimes using some of these bigger words or going over these concepts in a very fast manner, but it is something that unless you stretch yourself and do the hard work of looking up words you don't understand in a dictionary and exposing yourself to this kind of. 36:22 Sean Finnegan Discourse. 36:23 Sean Finnegan You won't grow, so I think it is, Annette. Good. Even though I also empathize with the frustration that somebody might experience listening to this, Ziad continues. Dustin starts off by clarifying that he would like to focus on the person, not on the body or spirit or breath. 36:43 Sean Finnegan But the person was not defined. What is the person if not the body and spirit? 36:50 Sean Finnegan Doesn't it make sense to distinguish between the body and spirit? Does Sam use a different definition? Well, as I at I think Dustin is looking to consider the whole individual, the whole being, the whole human being. 37:04 Sean Finnegan In the sense of person in theology, the word person can either refer to just the mind or to a human being. So I could see why you would be confused there. 37:15 Sean Finnegan There are a range of different perspectives on what the soul is. A lot of times people refer to Genesis 27 and say that the human being with the animating breath is a soul, that that is the person, the whole being, the soul, the human, the man or the woman. 37:36 Sean Finnegan So that is one definition. I think a lot of us recognize that there are different ways in which the word soul is used in Scripture, so it's not so narrowly defined as just Genesis 27, which is a nice shortcut in one sense. And so people will tend to use the word spirit instead of soul to avoid. 37:54 Sean Finnegan That I think it's an area that's pretty murky in the Bible itself. There's not like a a strong clarity that the Bible makes a big point about this is how you should think about what constitutes a human being. What is important is to realize that we're made in the image of God, that we have bodies, that our bodies are good. They're also made by God. 38:15 Sean Finnegan That God is planning to resurrect our bodies and so. 38:19 Sean Finnegan So we're not looking at a bodyless existence and eternity, but the question of the intermediate state is, can there be some part of us? I don't. It doesn't matter to me if you call it a soul or a spirit, a mind or some other term that is able to exist in some way. 38:40 Sean Finnegan In the intermediate state, and that's where I've moved to. I used to believe in physicalism, as I mentioned in this. 38:46 Sean Finnegan Conversation. But the problem with that, as I articulated, but I didn't really go into detail, is the clone issue. So if I take a strand of your hair and use the DNA in that to make another body identical to yours, and then I copy your brain states your physical brain states so that I can. 39:06 Sean Finnegan Encode the exact memories and brain states that your current brain has onto this new body. Which one is you? 39:15 Sean Finnegan Well, that's not a hard question to answer. I have two of you and one of you is the you that has been there the whole time and the other is a new you and it's not really you. It's another person who just happens to have your memories and DNA and the same body. That is what we call a clone. So it won't do. 39:36 Sean Finnegan To clone somebody in the resurrection, because that's not the same person. That person who died is gone forever, and now we have a copy of that person who is now going to start a new. 39:47 Sean Finnegan Life and I I'm just speaking for myself. That does not satisfy my longing for eternal life and resurrection. To know that really I'm just going to die in a copy of me is going to live on. So that's not really the issue that the physicalist has. Who says, oh, well, it's just all going to be recreated and it'll be fine. 40:08 Sean Finnegan It will be fine for that new copy of you, sure, but it's not gonna be fine for you. You will have died and you will never experience resurrection. Your remains might, but not. 40:16 Sean Finnegan You. 40:17 Sean Finnegan So that's what has moved me and and many others to dualism. Now within dualism you have the idea that there is a body and a soul or a mind. I just switch to the word mind because it's a little less confusing biblically. So you have your body, which I think we understand what that means. You have your mind, which is the. 40:37 Sean Finnegan Consciousness that runs on your brain. If I could put it that way, this is a little philosophical. So you have to pardon me for that, but this is just how it's used. So you have the brain, which is the physical stuff, the actual. 40:50 Sean Finnegan Neurons and the Gray matter and the fluid and all the stuff that is physical and can be measured. And then there's your mind. So the brain gives rise to the mind. The mind is the actual consciousness, the thoughts that you have, and typically without a brain, a mind is not going to do much. If you think of the brain as the hardware. 41:09 Sean Finnegan The mine might be the software. I don't think it's really that simple, but that's a way of thinking about it. And so one way is to think of the mind basically going to a storage that God has set up. However, that works. What however, that technology work? 41:25 Sean Finnegan Where it's in hibernate mode, so it still exists, but it's just not doing anything. And then once he resurrects your remains into a new body, then he can reestablish that mind into the brain so that you can actually have continuity through the whole death and resurrection process. 41:45 Sean Finnegan That's one way to think about it. So then that storage facility where God is keeping the you, that's you. 41:52 Sean Finnegan Not necessarily alive, but also not dead either is Sheol or Hades. Incidentally, we have heard a lot of pronunciation of the word. It's a Shiva in Hebrew. Those of you know Hebrew. It's a Shim with the Shiva under it. A lot of times Israelis will say a say Ray Sound instead of. 42:12 Sean Finnegan Hey Shiva, sound and so you get shale in that case or I tend to say shield when I'm not really thinking about it, but it's actually. 42:20 Sean Finnegan Oh, it's a very fast uh sound going into the O, which is the long O sound. So this storage place of oh or Hades. The question is, is your mind in some sense awake? Is it able to have existence and thinking on its own or not? Sam is saying yes, Dustin. 42:40 Sean Finnegan Saying no, from what we've heard in this interview. 42:44 Sean Finnegan Dustin, I would say basically diffused Isaiah 14. Actually I would say was able to Marshall Isaiah 14 as evidence for the unconscious view because in Isaiah 14 the King of Babylon comes down into Shell, but the dead are roused, so normally they are. 43:04 Sean Finnegan Asleep. They're unconscious, but they are aroused for this, you know, very prophetic, hyperbolic conversation. Ohh, aren't you the tough guy that used to make everybody so scared? Look at you now. 43:15 Sean Finnegan So that's Isaiah 14, which I think is actually evidence for the unconscious intermediate state and then safely with a witch of Endor, Dustin was able to use that diffuse that bomb, if you will, and say, well, yeah, OK, well, maybe this happened. But normally Samuel is unconscious and he's kind of like, gets up all grumpy. Like, hey, what are you doing? 43:36 Sean Finnegan Disturbing me. So that's actually evidence for the unconscious intermediate state, at least typically. 43:42 Sean Finnegan Now, with the rich man and Lazarus, we really saw Sam scoring some points where he's like, OK, first of all, Jesus doesn't tell parables by talking about something that doesn't actually exist, something that's not actually possible in the real world. And I thought that was kind of a strong point. 44:02 Sean Finnegan So there's that. And then there's also Sam's point that he's taking a face value reading. And I think just overwhelmingly face value reading should be preferred. They're not 100%, but they should always be. 44:14 Sean Finnegan 3rd and then his third major point that nobody really engaged with is that early Christians in the second and third centuries overwhelmingly took the rich man and Lazarus parable to be literal, or at least to be describing something that actually is the case. Maybe the rich man Lazarus aren't literal, but the. 44:34 Sean Finnegan The point is that there is such a place as the underworld, and that's not heaven. 44:40 Sean Finnegan I think Sam was pretty clear on that. So as far as the rich man and Lazarus goes, that you really have two options. One, Jesus is taking a story that they already knew about and adding something to it to convict them, and then the other, which would be the part of the end where even if somebody raises from. 45:01 Sean Finnegan Said they they still wouldn't believe. So there's there's that aspect of it, or Jesus is just describing what he believes. And I think you you might be a little hard pressed to work that in with other statements of Jesus where he talks about Lazarus being asleep, not the Lazarus of the parable, but the. 45:22 Sean Finnegan A friend of his named. 45:23 Sean Finnegan Lazarus and that he goes to wake him up and then he says very clearly Lazarus is dead. And so we know Jesus considered the dead to be asleep and he does not say Lazarus. His body is asleep. He says Lazarus is asleep and I go to wake him up. So when we look at the totality of Scripture, it does still seem to me that. 45:43 Sean Finnegan The intermediate state is. 45:45 Sean Finnegan This and you know, if God wanted to give us like, an artificial brain on which our minds could function in some subterranean cavern, I'm sure he could do that. It seems a little outlandish to me, and it doesn't seem that the evidence is strong enough to support that sort of an understanding. 46:04 Sean Finnegan Now Isaiah goes on to say. Also, both Dustin and Sam do not distinguish between the righteous and unrighteous, or those that die before the resurrection and after Jesus is resurrected. Is this their position that there is no difference when it comes to determining where the body or soul goes after death? 46:20 Sean Finnegan Well, I would say that you might have actually heard a little bit more on this from Sam in the interview just now where he does talk about there being a good place and a bad place in Hades. And so I guess the way that works in the theory is that in the good place, it's very pleasant, very nice and in the bad. 46:40 Sean Finnegan Place you're getting tormented by flames. It really does sound like the old school idea of hell. I mean, come on. 46:46 Sean Finnegan So Sam would say there are these two compartments neither of them talked about how Christ's death and resurrection could have affected that which I I'm not sure that either of them thinks that it does affect that yet until the resurrection on the last day. 47:03 Sean Finnegan Dustin did not specify difference between the righteous and the wicked because Dustin does not believe there is a difference in the experience of death for the righteous or the wicked. They're both unconscious. Whether you're righteous and unconscious or wicked and unconscious, you're unconscious. And if you've ever been unconscious, you know that you don't know anything. 47:23 Sean Finnegan You're just totally. 47:25 Sean Finnegan Flying through time at an incredible speed until you wake up and then it's 8 hours later. Or it could be 1000 years later. If the resurrection is separated by that long, and as I had also asked the question, finally they seem to be referencing slides. Are these available? Yes they are available. So I add you could. 47:45 Sean Finnegan Find them on the restitution. 47:48 Sean Finnegan Siterestitutio.org find episode 567 are the dead conscious, which is I think what you commented on and I actually embed the YouTube video of the raw original recording there unedited, so you can go check that out and in that video recording are all the slides that Dustin use. 48:08 Sean Finnegan Just so take a look at that if you're interested. I've got a ton of other comments that I'm going to have to be fairly brief on. Just because this episode's already getting long. First one up is by Paul Muscle, who says this episode is so great. I really appreciate the open minded approach and the obvious desire of everyone on the show to figure out what the best way to understand the material is. 48:31 Sean Finnegan I really appreciate all of you being a good example to others for how reasonable people should talk with each other. 48:37 Sean Finnegan And how we should approach issues that are ambiguous enough to allow for disagreement among reasonable men. I grew up being taught the mainstream idea of people going to heaven or hell at death. Later, I studied the issue for myself and came to a view very like Sam's. Basically that the wicked will be destroyed after the judgment. But I don't have a clear idea of what all happens during the interim. 48:57 Sean Finnegan Based on some of the texts that were discussed in this episode, I supposed that there may be a wide variety of experiences in show, and that the experience could vary from time to time depending on the circumstances that sometimes people might be conscious and other times not. Since then I have thought about it a little, and while I. 49:17 Sean Finnegan I still don't really know what happens. I do have a tentative theory about why the Bible is less than clear about what goes on during that. 49:24 Sean Finnegan Time the passage of first Peter 318 talks about Jesus preaching to imprisoned spirits who had died in the flood. I find this hard to reconcile with the idea that everybody is just unconscious from death until the resurrection, and it does seem to imply that these people who apparently died in their sins might have been given a second chance to repent during the intermediate state. 49:45 Sean Finnegan But we are not given any details about how that might work, or else if anyone will be given a second chance to. 49:52 Sean Finnegan And. 49:53 Sean Finnegan Let me pause you there, Paul. You go on for another paragraph, but I just want to respond to this. The passage of first Peter 318. I've always taken to refer to this spirits. That is the malevolent spiritual beings that influenced the people to do the bad things that they did or that they could even refer to the sons of God who took the daughters of. 50:13 Sean Finnegan Men and had relations with them and produced these Nephilim, so they're not human beings and they are kept in this spiritual prison called Tartarus, and to whom Jesus then made an appearance. And you know, we're not giving any information about what that proclamation was or if it was salvational or if it was just like, hey, look. 50:34 Sean Finnegan God has just fixed the whole system through me. Nice to meet you. See you later. Who knows what happened there, but I've always taken it to be a reference to these fallen spirits and not a reference to. 50:48 Sean Finnegan The souls of the people that were really disobedient in the time of the flood. So I don't know if you've ever thought about that, Paul, but it's just we're throwing out there, Paul continues. It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture is the call for people to repent now and to be refined into the people. God wants us to be. Now. I could be mistaken. 51:09 Sean Finnegan But it seems to me that creating this world for us to inhabit during this time was done primarily to give us that opportunity. If that is true, then it also seems to me that giving us all the details about how the second chance would be offered and what category of people would be offered a second chance could compromise the primary purpose of this creation. 51:27 Sean Finnegan Leaving the details ambiguous, but giving a bit of information for those who care enough to really study seems like a reasonable plan. 51:34 Sean Finnegan I think God likes for people to seek him and the ones who do can benefit both from the inherent benefits of the knowledge they can gather from the extrinsic rewards. God may reward them with later for seeking him. So Paul's talking about the possibility of a post mortem repentance, and this is something that's who was it? 51:54 Sean Finnegan Clark Pennock wrote about in his book The Wideness of God's Mercy. If I have that right. 51:59 Sean Finnegan And he talks about the idea that post resurrection actually not in the intermediate state, but post resurrection. People who never got a chance to hear the gospel would possibly have a chance to hear the gospel. I think this is all speculative. I appreciate that Paul is not pushing this, that he's just throwing it out there as, hey, maybe this is a way to think about it, that sort of gives people a redemptive. 52:20 Sean Finnegan Opportunity. Who? Never heard. Yeah, maybe. 52:24 Sean Finnegan And maybe that's what the Millennium is for, for lots of people speculating that, or maybe that's not what they're for. And this life is all there is. I think we just have to assume that because we don't really want to bank on there being a second chance and we want to open our mouths. Our mission that Jesus gave us is to make disciples of all nations. 52:44 Sean Finnegan And we really need to do that in our neighborhoods. We need to do it in our families. We need to do it in our workplaces. This is something that we're called to do and I think so many of us are shy. 52:55 Sean Finnegan That we just can't afford to give ourselves reasons more reasons not to do evangelism to to help people to taste and see that the Lord is good to give them God's love and let them respond. So end of evangelism speech here, another person commented. 53:15 Sean Finnegan And then called Henry, if dead means dead. Ecclesiastes 95 not that complicated. 53:23 Sean Finnegan I'm guessing this person is a physicalist, so the physicalist once again believes that dead people, their minds are gone, disappeared, ****, vanish, and that all that's left is the brain and the body, and they're both rotting or destroyed. And so that's all there is. There's nothing to talk about. 53:45 Sean Finnegan I could see why somebody coming from. 53:46 Sean Finnegan That. 53:47 Sean Finnegan Perspective would find this conversation frustrating, but at the same time. 53:52 Sean Finnegan See my earlier comments about the problem with physicalism and continuity through the intermediate state, something called tax evasion wrote in. I think Dustin nailed it. I see our life force going back to God and death as a state of complete unconsciousness until the resurrection. Is it our brain that dreams at night? 54:12 Sean Finnegan Or is it our soul? 54:14 Sean Finnegan Where are our thoughts and memories kept? 54:18 Sean Finnegan Is our head an empty VAT where our soul resides? Are we going to be dreaming until the day of resurrection? How can we be in 1/2 state of low existence in some Greek mythological place called Hades and Tartarus without the physical body? 54:34 Sean Finnegan Let me pause you there. Tax evasion. 54:36 Sean Finnegan First of all, you shouldn't evade your taxes. Jesus and. 54:39 Sean Finnegan Paul taught this. 54:40 Sean Finnegan Very clearly in the two in the New Testament that you should pay your taxes. So I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna throw that out there at a starting point. Somebody who's using that as their handle. But secondly, I did want to mention. And Dustin didn't get a chance to point this out. 54:56 Sean Finnegan But in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, they're in bodies. Did you notice that? He says, put your finger in some water and touch it to my tongue. Right. He lifted up his eyes in Hades and he saw this other guy. It doesn't even sound like the other guys in Hades. He's in. He's at Abraham's bosom. But it doesn't sound like he's in. 55:13 Sean Finnegan Right. 55:14 Sean Finnegan So I think it seems like they actually have bodies in the intermediate state, which is really kind of difficult for the typical view, but that is what they believed in Greek mythology. In other mythologies, a lot of these folk ideas is what these. 55:34 Sean Finnegan Early church fathers presumably grew up with as non Christians. They grew up believing in. 55:42 Sean Finnegan The underworld of Hades and the River Styx and Heron the ferrymen to get you across the river and to the land of Hades. Where Hades the God is in charge of things. And so you already have that view. You're in Hellenistic person. You have that folk theology. 56:01 Sean Finnegan Of the afterlife. Now you become a Christian. So what do you do? You gravitate to the rich man and Lazarus parable because it seems like a hook into your culture when Jesus is not speaking in Hellenistic context at all. He's talking to Jewish people who had a very different view. So I I think it is a bit of a stretch, the. 56:21 Sean Finnegan Tax evasion goes on, he says. All love to all and no offense to Sam as we are all brothers with a zeal for God and the truth. But I do think this position is silly and quite irresponsible. It reminds me of Trinitarian thought and logic and inability to discern what is and isn't literal or physical. 56:41 Sean Finnegan I don't claim to be perfect, and I'm still using a fine tooth comb over things, but I think the staunch Chris Adelphian position on this topic is the correct 1, though I am always open to hearing other opinions. 56:53 Sean Finnegan Collecting more information and data and being like a child in learning with humility and leaving pride at the door, I think we should be asking ourselves, does this affect the gospel of the Kingdom and is it compatible with Christ's death and purpose on the cross? 57:08 Sean Finnegan Well, tax evasion seems like you're favoring the Chris. I'm not sure exactly what the Christadelphian position is other than I, I'm pretty sure they believe in unconscious intermediate state. 57:20 Sean Finnegan But I would say that you could really benefit from some adjustments in your critique here, because what you say about Sam, first of all, you say no offense and then you say that his position is silly and irresponsible. But you you don't explain that, you just say it just seems silly. 57:39 Sean Finnegan To you? Yeah, maybe it seems silly to you, but that doesn't mean that it is a silly idea. Same as taking it very seriously. And to say his idea is silly. It's just it's just not helpful. And calling Sam irresponsible. OK. Why? 57:54 Sean Finnegan Tell us why. Engage. Give us reasons that that's really a borderline, just ad hominem. I do appreciate that you distinguish between Sam and his idea. 58:05 Sean Finnegan Which I think is great, but you know it's just not a helpful way of engagement. So if it seems silly to you, just explain what are the reasons why it seems silly. Is it because you've never seriously entertained it before and you grew up with a different position? Yeah. Any view is going to sound silly to you that is different than what you grew up with. So that's not really helpful. Another comment. 58:25 Sean Finnegan By someone named Mark wrote in saying today you will be with me in Paradise Luke 23. 58:29 Sean Finnegan 43 and he is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 2232 should make this something of a slam dunk for Bible believing Christians. By that I assume Mark is making the case that Sam is correct, and that there is a conscious intermediate state now on this one in Luke 2343, where it says today you will be with me in Paradise. 58:50 Sean Finnegan I do want to mention that there is another way of seeing this, so you could either redefine the intermediate location of the dead as Paradise, which I think is a bit of a stretch, or you could say that Jesus is speaking to the guy from his. 59:08 Sean Finnegan Point of reference. 59:10 Sean Finnegan Because there's no consciousness in the intermediate state, this guy dies that same day, literally a minute later, a second later, not even a second later, he is awake and he is in paradise in the resurrection. So either 1 is just as well as the other Matthew 2232 God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 59:32 Sean Finnegan Well, that is a sword that cuts both ways. If you're saying that the dead are not dead, they're actually living, then we've just lost the definition for death. And that is really problematic. So I think that might need a little more fleshing out. 59:50 Sean Finnegan And then someone named MJ wrote in. I personally don't have a dog in this fight. I did favor the perspective of unconscious state of the soul post death, but Sam raises some good points. Perhaps there's a bit more nuance involved. Ultimately, I believe this shouldn't be a divisive matter. However, I would be curious if there are any potential negative consequences that might arise from adopting. 1:00:12 Sean Finnegan One viewpoint over another? Yeah, I'm interested in that too. Please write in if you have some thoughts on that. 1:00:19 Sean Finnegan Would love to see what people think as far as the practical application of this teaching. Incidentally, I don't think every teaching needs to have a practical application. I think it's fine to have ideas that are just ideas and whether they're true or false is still important to me, even if it doesn't have a practical application. 1:00:40 Sean Finnegan To it. 1:00:42 Sean Finnegan All right. Well, that's going to be it for today. Thanks everybody for writing in. We had a ton more comments than I could read out, but I'll leave it to you to take a look at those on restitutio.org or on the YouTube channel. 1:00:56 Sean Finnegan Next week I've got an interview lined up with Bob Carden pastor out of the Chicago area of Illinois, and so stay tuned for that interview about the subject of healing and spiritual gifts, stuff like that. 1:01:15 Sean Finnegan Please also if you are enjoying this podcast, share it with your friends. Podcasts don't really get as much play as other forms of media, and so yeah, share it with your friends. Let them know what you're listening to, and if you'd like to support us, that's great too. You can do that at restitutio.org. 1:01:36 Sean Finnegan But yeah, please do. Please do share episodes on social media, on e-mail or just in conversation with friends. Having biblical conversations and having theological conversations is worth. 1:01:49 Sean Finnegan File. So let's do it. Let's do it with our friends. I mean, what do we talk about, anyhow? Politics. The weather. Come on, let's talk about the stuff that really matters. Stuff that is really. 1:02:01 Sean Finnegan That really affects us eternally. So anyhow, that's enough of a plug for that. Thanks, everybody. We'll catch you next week. And remember the truth. 1:02:11 Sean Finnegan Has nothing to fear.