This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 553: Pro Golfer Turned Christologist Tells All with Kermit Zarley This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. 00:08 Sean Finnegan Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to Restitutio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:13 Sean Finnegan Seeks to recover. 00:14 Sean Finnegan Authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:25 Sean Finnegan Kermit Zarley was a professional golfer who had an interest in studying the Bible about the end times when he came across a disturbing verse reading Jesus's words in the olivet discourse, he noticed that only the father knew the day and hour of the end. Neither the Angels nor the son of God were Privy to it. 00:45 Sean Finnegan As a good Trinitarian evangelical, zarli was familiar with the dual natures idea, but just couldn't square that with the scripture. 00:55 Sean Finnegan If Jesus was God in his being, he knew everything. 01:01 Sean Finnegan Why did he say he didn't know the time of the end? 01:05 Sean Finnegan Surely Jesus couldn't be lying. 01:08 Sean Finnegan This conundrum set zarli down a path of research and investigation for many years until he slowly uncovered a different way of understanding Christ. 01:20 Sean Finnegan Although he knew going public with his new belief would result in ostracism and rejection, he went ahead with it anyhow. This is his story. 01:37 Sean Finnegan Welcome, Kermit zarley. I'm so happy to have you on the show today. For those of you who don't know who he is. Kermit Zarley was a professional golfer with the PGA with dozens of top finishes and three wins. He co-founded the PGA Tour Bible Study Group, which is, I understand it is still going. 01:58 Sean Finnegan And he is a prolific Christian author and blogs.regularly@patheos.com. 02:05 Sean Finnegan Mr. Zarli, welcome to restitutio. 02:09 Kermit Zarley Hey, glad to be back. 02:11 Sean Finnegan Today we're talking about Christology and of course I interviewed you years ago. I think when I went back to check, it was 2009 on my first podcast which was called Truth Matters. And at the time you were concerned about people discovering your identity. 02:29 Sean Finnegan So you requested that I disguise your voice. Do you remember that? 02:34 Kermit Zarley I sure do when I publish that book, the restitution I did it anonymously with a pseudonym and that was Servetus, the evangelical. 02:47 Sean Finnegan Yeah, I just checked surveillanceevangelical.com and it redirects to Kermit zarley.com, so I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about why you had all that secrecy back in those days and what was driving that? 03:03 Kermit Zarley It was partly a marketing strategy, but my two closest friends, actually my son and doctor Scott McKnight, were advising me as I got close to publishing that book. 03:18 Kermit Zarley That I not publish it with my name. They say you're gonna get too much pushback about that. 03:25 Kermit Zarley Because of course, it's controversial. Most Christians are taught the doctrine of the Trinity. 03:32 Kermit Zarley And that Jesus is God, whereas you have now changed and no longer believe that. And that's what your book is about. You're going to get so much criticism. Why don't you do it anonymously with a pseudonym? And I thought about that for about 6 months. And finally I decide, OK, I'll do it. 03:53 Kermit Zarley That's what happened. I did it for like two. It was almost two years. 03:59 Kermit Zarley And I had a contest. Guess who I am. I had a website, servetusevangelical.com. I was putting in. 04:07 Sean Finnegan And you gave out little hints, right? A little clues about your identity. 04:10 Kermit Zarley I gave clues. I gave clues just about every week and nobody could guess it for like, you know, a year. But then I started as I was getting close to the time that I was gonna reveal who I was, I started giving him more obvious clues than at the. 04:29 Kermit Zarley And yeah, they guessed it. 04:31 Sean Finnegan Very good. And was there a big consequence to coming out of the closet for lack of a better phrase? 04:40 Kermit Zarley Ohh I don't know, I remember Anthony Buzzard, who was one of the early guys that would send me emails. He didn't know who I was. 04:52 Kermit Zarley And who are you and? 04:56 And. 04:56 Kermit Zarley So after I revealed who I was, eventually he kind of criticized me a little bit at first, just saying why? Why didn't you come out in the beginning? You know, I didn't really answer those questions, and now I have answered. 05:11 Kermit Zarley I'm actually I'm. I'll answer them at length in my new book, the Gospel corrupted, when Jesus became God. That's 100 page book just came out. 05:23 Kermit Zarley And it's easy reading. It's a primer for my big book, the restitution. 05:28 Kermit Zarley And and incidentally, I changed the title of that big book last year. 05:37 Kermit Zarley And that's 15 years after it was first published in 2008. And I changed the title from the restitution of Jesus Christ to the restitution with the subtitle biblical proof. Jesus is not God, and I dropped the pseudonym. 05:57 Kermit Zarley Venice, the evangelical. 05:58 Sean Finnegan Alright, well, let's go back there. Let's go back to the time when you were research. 06:03 Sean Finnegan King the restitution of Jesus Christ, which was the 1980s. The 1990s, was that research period mainly because this book you finished, I think in 2008 originally. 06:19 Kermit Zarley I published it at the end of 2008. 06:21 Sean Finnegan Right. So talk to me about that research project. Why was this so important to you as a, as a professional golfer? You know, people would say, what's this early doing here in theology? 06:34 Sean Finnegan Anyhow, and just walk us through that. Just ever so briefly what that journey was like that 15 years in particular. 06:43 Kermit Zarley That raises another question. Why did I even become a theological writer? 06:49 Sean Finnegan Yeah. Yeah. Please get into that too. 06:52 Kermit Zarley I played on the the regular PGA Tour. They call it from 1964 through 1982, so that was 18 years full time on the PGA Tour. The first key thing that a a player needs to do. 07:12 Kermit Zarley In order to be successful. 07:14 Kermit Zarley Is they need to stay exempt. It's called. That means that you're eligible to play in all of the tournaments except in the majors. You might have to qualify for those. 07:29 Kermit Zarley So that means that you you're an exempt player. And of course you meet certain qualifications in order to be an exempt player, stay in the top 60 money winners or win a tournament. And so I was doing that the whole time, the 18 years except for about 6 months I went non exempt back in 70. 07:50 Kermit Zarley Then I won the Canadian. 07:51 Kermit Zarley Open. 07:52 Kermit Zarley But by the time 1982 rolled around, I was going to lose my exemption. So I had a family, three children. That would mean that I had to go to the Qualifying School and try to qualify to get exempt for one more year. Well, I wasn't going to do that. I was past that. 08:12 Kermit Zarley In my life. And so it's time to fold up shop and go and do something else. So I had four options that I was considering paying, asked me to go to work for them. I was very close friend with the founder and owner Solheim. 08:30 Kermit Zarley And so I almost did that, but I didn't. I had other options. One was I was building golf clubs as a hobby. I had a different kind of a Golf Club, a hollowed out club, and I knew that this was going to take over the market, hollowed out for woods. And so I almost did that. But. 08:50 Kermit Zarley Through much prayer, I decide no. I'm gonna go into some kind of Christian ministry. 08:56 Kermit Zarley And so I had also had a hobby of writing a book about biblical eschatology. I've been a student of that ever since my late teens. 09:08 Kermit Zarley And. 09:09 Kermit Zarley And so I decided, OK, I'm gonna go into Christian publishing this idea of who is Jesus, is he God is God. Three persons. I've been taught that ever since the beginning of my Christian education. 09:30 Kermit Zarley And so I was a Trinitarian and evangelical. I had been carrying on ministry on the tour with the PJ Tour Bible study. All of this for 22 years. But then I had this enlightenment moment in 1980 in my office in my house. 09:50 Kermit Zarley Reading Jesus, all of the discourse which I knew quite well, but I came to the verse in which he said concerning the time of his return, his second coming, we call. 10:04 Kermit Zarley But. 10:05 Kermit Zarley No man knows the day or the hour, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son referring to himself, but only the father. 10:16 Kermit Zarley And so it hit me like never before. 10:20 Kermit Zarley And I said to myself, with my background thinking of the hypostatic union. 10:27 Kermit Zarley Which, if you know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity, you know that the church fathers, after they decided that Jesus was God in their first Ecumenical Council. 10:40 Kermit Zarley All of this is Catholic in that 325 when they said Jesus, very God of very God, made a creed called the Nicene Creed, put that in there. 10:51 Kermit Zarley Then, 30 years later, came a second Ecumenical Council 381, and they that's where they made it official about God. God is 3 persons. They didn't use the the word Trinity, but they refined the Nicene Creed. 11:10 Kermit Zarley And then in 451, they had their 5th Ecumenical Council in which they decided. 11:19 Kermit Zarley How it is that Jesus is both man and God? Well, he's got two natures. He's got a divine nature. He's got a human nature and they call that the hypostatic union. So I've got all this teaching in my head. 11:34 Kermit Zarley In 1980, when I'm reading this text in Jesus, all of it discourse, and he says this about his his own identity and his second coming. 11:45 Kermit Zarley And so I said to myself. 11:48 Kermit Zarley That referring to the hypostatic union. 11:52 Kermit Zarley That Jesus, God, he knows everything. He certainly knows who he is. He knows he's God, and he knows the time of his second coming. 11:59 Kermit Zarley That makes Jesus look like a liar, he says he didn't know the time of second coming, but yet he does. He he has to because he's God. 12:10 Kermit Zarley And so I said to myself, you know, I blurted it out. I'm not alone in my room. I blurted it out and I said that makes Jesus look like a liar. 12:21 Kermit Zarley He said he doesn't know, but yet he really does. 12:25 Kermit Zarley At least I thought he did. That's what I was taught. So I said I must look into this. So it got very serious. And you could say I got obsessed about it. And I started studying it like crazy. In 1982, my last year on the tour, I'm playing in the US Open at Pebble Beach. 12:44 Kermit Zarley My favorite tournament, my favorite golf course I had had a chance to win it 10 years before at that site in 1972. It was leading the last round. Jack Nicklaus won. I lost. 13:00 Kermit Zarley So I'm back playing this tournament Saturday night. I should have been going to bed because I got myself in a pretty good position. I could finish in the top 10, but I'm staying at a home with a theological library in my room. 13:16 Kermit Zarley And I'm reading these books like crazy. I'm reading little story Shaffer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary. I had a connection to Dallas Theological Seminary. I'm reading Schafer's works. I'm reading all these books about how it is that God is 3 persons and Jesus is one of them. And I'm going. 13:36 Kermit Zarley This isn't very convincing what they're saying. 13:40 Kermit Zarley And so I had deep prayer 3:00 in the morning. I said, Lord, I I don't think that what I've been taught is true about this. And of course, praying all the time about it. Years later, studying this did affect my decision a little bit. Not much, a little bit. 14:00 Kermit Zarley About why he decided to go into Christian publishing. 14:04 Sean Finnegan Yeah, because the next day, you you didn't do too well because you're up so late studying, right? 14:11 Kermit Zarley Yeah, yeah. 14:13 Sean Finnegan Well, that's that stinks. But at the same time, a small price to pay to discover God's truth, especially when it's not commonly understood in our time. 14:23 Sean Finnegan So I guess that's just always been a passion of yours. Just studying the Bible and and Christianity since you were fairly young. 14:31 Sean Finnegan And you just kind of stumbled into this Christology business? 14:36 Kermit Zarley I did. I wasn't considering Christology. 14:40 Sean Finnegan You weren't raised as a Unitarian or a non trinitarian of any sort. You were just a a regular evangelical. 14:49 Kermit Zarley Yeah, I didn't come from a Christian Church going home, but my parents respected Christians. I went to Sunday school because of. 14:58 Kermit Zarley I I'd had a a born again experience when I was 13 years old. My Sunday school teacher led me to faith in Christ and privately in prayer. And then when I went to college down at Houston Campus, Crusade for Christ had come there four years prior. They were just starting. 15:18 Kermit Zarley Now. 15:19 Kermit Zarley And they came to University of Houston and Rice campuses, and they were evangelizing. And so a movement started among the athletes at the University of Houston. When I got there, I got involved in it. Campus crusade for Christ Friday night. 15:39 Kermit Zarley College life meetings. I was going to. I got in a Bible church and so that's where my commitment to Christ really started to take off. And I was getting educated theologically. 15:53 Sean Finnegan Would you say that when you were doing this research over this? 15:57 Sean Finnegan This period of time that you would have preferred to find a good explanation of the hypostatic union such that you could continue believing in the Trinity. 16:09 Kermit Zarley Ohh I'd have to answer yes to that, Sean. 16:12 Sean Finnegan Because that would have just been better for you to just resolve this one difficulty and then just keep believing the, you know, the more popular idea, right? 16:21 Kermit Zarley Ohh that's right. Because you see the thing that I had to consider so much was the rejection that I knew I was gonna get. I mean, I knew something about church history by this time 1982 and what I was looking at was just all this rejection. I was going to get. 16:42 Kermit Zarley From my Christian friend. 16:43 Kermit Zarley Friends, my church, I never even told anybody at my church about it. They didn't know anything. It was only. 16:50 Sean Finnegan Yeah. You you kept it a secret. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. 16:52 Kermit Zarley I did. I kept it a secret. It was only my very closest Christian friend, most of whom were in Christian ministry, like professors at seminaries, President of Seminaries. People were in Christian work. It was mostly those people who I went and told. 17:10 Sean Finnegan Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about that. I'm kind of interested to hear about how you met Ed. 17:16 Sean Finnegan Clowney and RC Sproul, in particular, because I think your friend had challenged you or maybe required you to meet with these other guys because you wanted to start the the Bible study and he he wanted them to check you out or something like that. 17:32 Sean Finnegan Could. 17:32 Sean Finnegan You comment on that or remind us that story a little bit. 17:36 Kermit Zarley Well the the. 17:36 Kermit Zarley The PJ Tour Bible study had started my second year on the tour in 1965. 17:42 Sean Finnegan OK, so it was already there, but you you you must have started to tell your your Co leader or co-founder or something right about your resignations. 17:44 Kermit Zarley Yeah. 17:50 Kermit Zarley Yeah then. 17:52 The. 17:52 Kermit Zarley The the person who imparted the idea to me and babe Hiskey, my closest friend on the PGA Tour. We've been roommates in college, and so we went to the same church in Houston Bracket Church, an independent Bible church. 18:12 Kermit Zarley Babe had an older brother and when I came to the University of Houston, that was really inspiration for me to go to the school to to stay there to school. I actually thought about quitting. 18:27 Kermit Zarley Because I was homesick. But it was people like Jim Hiskey Babes older brother who I thought to myself, these people, these guys that I'm meeting here, these are really good people. 18:42 Kermit Zarley What I need to do is stay here at the University of Houston and not go home. I had these scholarship offers by other schools, Stanford, University of Washington in the town where I live in Seattle, that would have been easier doing that than going way down to Houston. 19:02 Kermit Zarley But it was because of the the Christian life and testimony of these people. 19:09 Kermit Zarley That I decided to stay and one was Jim Hiskey. So Jim Bill Bright, the head of Campus Crusade for Christ, the founder. Bill sent Jim to Houston, where Jim had graduated from college there and was an All American on the golf team three years. 19:29 Kermit Zarley Bill Bright sent him to Houston and Rice University campus to be their person. 19:35 Kermit Zarley In 1964, Jim imparted the idea to Babe and myself. Why don't you guys start a Bible study on the PGA Tour? So that's what we did. And Jim kind of oversaw the work. Eventually, he left crusade. He went to Washington, DC, hooked up with. 19:56 Kermit Zarley **** Halverson, who became the the chaplain of the US Senate for 15 years. He was the pastor of the Presbyterian Church that President Dwight Eisenhower had attended. 20:11 Kermit Zarley And so Jim hooked up with **** Halverson and Doug Cole, who were conducting this. It was it came to be called the Fellowship. 20:24 Kermit Zarley By that time, Jim was with the Fellowship Foundation, so 1518 years later, well, almost in 1982, the first person I went to after I made my decision when I was playing in the US, Open that in June, mid June, I went to gym and I told him. 20:44 Kermit Zarley Now, the reason I told Jim was. 20:47 Kermit Zarley That he knew that I was going to be leaving the PGA Tour at the end of this year, 1982, because I'm gonna lose my exemption. 20:57 Kermit Zarley And I said I I need to decide what I'm going to do with my life. 21:02 Kermit Zarley And I I told him I was thinking about being involved in some kind of Christian ministry and I I thought that I wanted to try to write some theological book. 21:14 Kermit Zarley And so Jim said, hey, why don't you come to DC and join us in the fellowship? I thought, well, since I've changed my theology on an important matter here, I better go tell Jim. So I went and told him he was alarmed, as anyone would expect. 21:34 Kermit Zarley And he said, would you go talk to some people about this? I said sure. So he selected three people, and that was Ed Clancy, who at the time was the President of Westminster Seminary. 21:47 Kermit Zarley Mary, we went and played golf with Ed. He was a golfer and then we had lunch and we talked about it. I told Ed what I was thinking. And then Jim asked me to go see RC sprawl. So I I skipped a tournament on the tour. That summer, I drove my family to the. 22:08 Kermit Zarley He's got a place there called. What's it called? Do you remember? 22:12 Kermit Zarley Yeah, Ligonier found it something and. And so we stayed in one of their places, and Archie and I spent a whole day together in his house talking about this. I mean, it was about six hours. 22:29 Kermit Zarley And then I talked to doctor James Houston. He was president of the school up in Vancouver, BC. 22:38 Kermit Zarley See. 22:39 Kermit Zarley My minds, yeah, region. That conversation was just for about 20 minutes on the phone. 22:47 Kermit Zarley But anyway, these people all got back to gym and they said we think he's OK theologically. Well, you see, I'm not very. I'm not as articulate then as I am now about it. I didn't know where I was going. 23:02 Kermit Zarley And so for a time there, I thought what Aria said. 23:09 Kermit Zarley Make kind of sense. Jesus God. 23:12 Kermit Zarley But he's not God, eternally. 23:17 Kermit Zarley There was a time when the Lago son did not exist. 23:22 Kermit Zarley And that has to do with the big Nice saying controversy. 23:26 Kermit Zarley And so I said that won't make sense. So you could have said it was an Aryan at first, but then I I right away said, yeah, you know, I decided in the beginning how am I going to study this? The most important person to try to find out about who Jesus is whether he's God or not. 23:46 Kermit Zarley Is Jesus. 23:48 Kermit Zarley And so I said, the way to do that is to read all of his sayings and the New Testament gospels. So I went to my Christian bookstore and I bought a red letter, New Testament. 24:00 Kermit Zarley That means that all of the sayings of Jesus and the four Gospels are in read. 24:05 Kermit Zarley I read only the red. 24:08 Kermit Zarley I said Jesus doesn't say he's gone any place. 24:12 Kermit Zarley I knew John 10:30. I am the father of one. I already knew that I already knew what Chicharron said about it. I wasn't totally convinced of that. To me, they took it out of context to say that that means that that Jesus, God, and so anyway, Red Letter Bible. 24:32 Kermit Zarley Read the gospel. The acts of the Apostles. They preach the gospel. It's got their messages. I read those messages. Nothing about Jesus being God, Jesus, Messiah. 24:44 Kermit Zarley And sometimes you're reading the New Testament and uses Messiah and son of God together. 24:51 Kermit Zarley As if it's equating the two, they're they're being used interchangeably, so you know most Christians think Jesus God, because he's the son of God. That's Greek metaphysics. That's not the way Hebrews think. That's not the way the Hebrew Bible is. 25:07 Those. 25:08 Sean Finnegan We'll talk about the research project and and getting the all the books and accessing commentaries and and what you what you did next. 25:16 Kermit Zarley Yeah, that was huge. That what happened for the next 28 years? 25:23 Sean Finnegan OK. 25:25 Kermit Zarley When I was on the senior tour traveling all over the country, I was going to theological blind libraries all the time. I went to Harvard, I went to every place. 25:38 Kermit Zarley You know, I would go there like on a Tuesday when I don't have to be at the tournament. 25:45 Kermit Zarley Or even a Wednesday. We had three day tournaments on the on the senior tour. That means Friday, Saturday, Sunday on Thursday you have a pro am, so I had to play the Pro-am and the tournament but Wednesday, uh and so I'd get there. Fly there Tuesday night, maybe Wednesday. 26:05 Kermit Zarley I go to some library study all day, but anyway my point is then I studied an awful lot in Houston. I go to the libraries in Houston Rice Library, you know, all kinds of libraries, the Catholic Library, Houston Baptist University, which is now Christian Union. 26:23 Kermit Zarley See I I went everywhere. I used the interlibrary loan system like crazy. I mean, I got hundreds and hundreds of books about the identity of Jesus through the Inner Library loan system. This was a whole lot of work. 26:41 Kermit Zarley You know the average professor that writes the theology. 26:45 Kermit Zarley Your book they're to school. They got a library right there. It's got all the theological books right there. They send their students over. Get this book, get that book. It's easy for them. Compared to what I did. So I worked really hard at this. So obviously, I was so obsessed. 27:05 Kermit Zarley But you see. 27:06 Kermit Zarley Sean, what's the most important thing in life? 27:11 Kermit Zarley Yes or no? God. 27:13 Kermit Zarley Through Jesus, that's the most important thing in life. 27:17 Kermit Zarley Nothing else compares to it. This is just a training ground here. This life we're in, we're preparing for eternity and God is gonna reward people when they carry out mission that he gives to him. I believe God was giving me a mission here. 27:38 Kermit Zarley I believe that I was doing God's work. That's what I was obsessed about. I was obsessed about carrying out God's mission for me. 27:46 Sean Finnegan And you probably also didn't want to just go off half cocked. You wanted to have certainty because it was such a a huge claim. 27:55 Kermit Zarley Ohh that's so important what you just said. So important. That's what I was doing. 28:02 Kermit Zarley I was trying to be sure. Am I on the right path? 28:07 Kermit Zarley Some people get this notion that Ohh God teaches me just through the Bible. I don't need anybody else. I don't need any Bible teachers, I don't need any theologians. I don't read the need to read their books. All I need to do is look at the Bible for myself and God will teach me. 28:28 Kermit Zarley Baloney. That's a bunch of baloney. 28:34 Kermit Zarley Why? 28:36 Kermit Zarley God's spirit works in people all over the place. 28:43 Kermit Zarley And so compare those. Find out what other people are saying. Find out what the experts are saying. Who are the people that have studied this all their lives? 28:55 Kermit Zarley And they got credential. 28:57 Kermit Zarley Those and I don't have any and they got tools that I don't have very well. I know some Greek. I know some Hebrew I've had one year of both of those, but these people have been doing this all their lives. Yeah. So go read what they're saying. Find out what they're saying. And so that's what I was doing. 29:17 Sean Finnegan It seems like you read both sides too, not just the conservatives, but also the Liberals. To see, you know, all of the scholarly literature. 29:26 Kermit Zarley Absolutely. 29:27 Kermit Zarley They. 29:28 Kermit Zarley Find out all. All says something about this and Corinthians. He says. Some people say they're Christ. Some people say they're Peter. 29:39 Kermit Zarley Some people say they're, you know. 29:43 Kermit Zarley Paul says all are ours. 29:50 Kermit Zarley All of these people don't attach yourself just to one person like that. 29:55 Kermit Zarley They're all ours. Learn from all of them as you can. That's what I've been doing all my life. 30:03 Kermit Zarley In doing this. 30:05 Sean Finnegan Yeah, very good. And when people came to you and said, Kermit Zarley, you're not a professional scholar. 30:15 Sean Finnegan Why should I listen to you? 30:18 Sean Finnegan How would you deal with that? You know, I mean, I think, you know, if somebody knew the amount of hours you spent and the amount of effort and, you know, reading 1000 books and, you know, having the training and the languages and everything else, they probably wouldn't say that. But I'm sure you've you've had this come up, what do you say to people that are just like questioning your credential? 30:39 Sean Finnegan You know you don't have a credential, so why should I listen to you? 30:42 Kermit Zarley Yeah, I haven't come up all the time. All the time, Sean. In fact, people write me off right from the very beginning. They won't even listen to me. 30:51 Kermit Zarley Because they already know. OK, you're not a scholar. You don't have a PhD. 30:57 Kermit Zarley It's true. 31:00 Kermit Zarley But Sean? 31:02 Kermit Zarley Jesus didn't go to theological school. They had two of them in Jerusalem. 31:10 Kermit Zarley The School of Shammai and the School of what is it? 31:15 Kermit Zarley Hello. Yeah, yeah. 31:18 Kermit Zarley Who did he choose for his 12 apostles? 31:21 Kermit Zarley He didn't choose anyone that had a theological education. Sure, all Jews have got some education theologically back then. 31:31 Kermit Zarley But he he chose fishermen, he chose a tax collector so on. 31:35 Kermit Zarley Now I'm not slamming higher education by saying that I don't mean that whatsoever. I'm all for higher education because I had to come make a decision for myself in 1983 after I no longer have my exemption on the tour. 31:56 Kermit Zarley I'm done with the PGA Tour and I went through a period of nine years there where I didn't play very much professionally golf. 32:04 Kermit Zarley But I had to decide, OK, what should I do if I want to be in Christian ministry? Should I go to seminary and get a seminary education? I went to Dallas Seminary and I asked him about it, and I didn't tell him about, you know, this. I told him about the rapture. 32:24 Kermit Zarley Because that was so big to the. 32:25 Kermit Zarley No. 32:26 Kermit Zarley You know, they believe in the pre tribulation rapture. Well, I did too and then I looked at it in 1970. I believed it for 12 years. 32:37 Kermit Zarley And I went to the seminary and studied one solid week right there in the library. Mosher library. I put BW Newton's books. He they had his works and they had John Nelson Darby's works. Those were the two early teachers of the Plymouth Brethren and Darby. 32:57 Kermit Zarley Came up with this belief that Jesus second comings in two parts. 33:04 Kermit Zarley And separated by a seven-year tribulation on Earth and the first part we call the Rapture. The second part we call the 2nd Advent. That was John Nelson Darby's teaching. BW and Newton disagreed with it. They had a big fallout and then they excommunicated Newton. 33:24 Kermit Zarley From the Plymouth brethren. But anyway. So I read the I'm reading their books right here with the Bible in the middle for one week. 33:33 Kermit Zarley And I said Newton's right darbys dead wrong. There isn't any two parts of the second coming of Christ separated by 7 years. There's only one second coming. That is the rapture. 33:46 Kermit Zarley And so I changed on that. So when I in 1983 went and talked to Don Campbell, the President of Dallas Theological Seminary, and I asked him what about me coming here to seminary? And I said I'm no longer a free tripper. I'm a post tripper. 34:07 Kermit Zarley And he said, well, no, you would have to be very sincere to us and say you're very, very open to returning to the pre Tribulation Rapture teaching. And I said, Don, there's no way I can do that. I already was that at least you cannot. 34:25 Sean Finnegan Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. 34:28 Kermit Zarley You cannot enroll in our school. 34:30 People. 34:31 Kermit Zarley So what I'm saying here is I considered going to seminary. 34:36 Kermit Zarley You know, I'm getting kind of old now for that. I'm 42 years old and I got a family. They're, you know, they're teen and getting to teenagers and everything. And so that it didn't look very good to me to do that in the 1st place. Then the other thing is what about my income? 34:54 Kermit Zarley I just had to decide. No, I can't go and do that. I would like to. I would like to actually get a PhD. So when I got on the senior tour and I'm making some money, I get this friend, Doctor Scott McKnight. Yeah, up in Chicago. He was at Ted's for. 35:14 Kermit Zarley You know that's where he graduated and he got his PhD in England under Jimmy Dunn. Scott became my friend. My first year on the tour. close friend. 35:25 Kermit Zarley I won't go into detail about it, but at any rate, eventually Scott trying. He's just hammering away with me, saying he calls me czar man, he says. Czar man, you've got to go over to England and get a PhD. 35:42 Kermit Zarley And I go, Scott, I'm in my 50s. I'm too old for that. No, you got to do. 35:48 Kermit Zarley Do it. 35:49 Kermit Zarley He went on for years like that. And so, you know, I came close to doing all that. I believe I could have done it. He believed it, other people did. I graduated with some honors and my school at the University of Houston. I have the intellectual capability of going and and doing that. 36:09 Kermit Zarley And getting a PhD. I think my writing showed that. 36:13 Kermit Zarley I I just didn't do it, but to answer that question, and I'm sorry to take this this long of a time. I just had to say to people, well, all I can say is just consider what I'm saying. 36:28 Sean Finnegan Yeah. I mean, in the end, someone's case comes down to their reasons, not their education. You could have a lot of degrees. 36:37 Sean Finnegan And have no solid reasons behind what you believe or you're advocating and it doesn't make it more true because you have degrees. I I think getting degrees helps disabuse you of the notion that only degreed people have value, in my opinion. Let me ask you. 36:57 Sean Finnegan Kind of off the wall question here. Why? Why do you think there is so much blind acceptance? 37:03 Sean Finnegan Of the doctrine of the Trinity in Evangelicalism, I mean I I get why, like the Catholics and the the Greek Church, why they believe in the Trinity. And that's kind of their their history. Right? But why among evangelicals? I mean, I just saw yesterday that they're petitioning the Southern Baptist Convention to. 37:24 Sean Finnegan Add the Nicene Creed to their official, their official statement and their the meeting this June. What is this with evangelicals and all this like blind faith and the the Nicene Creed and and the the doctrine of the Trinity? Where do you think it comes from? 37:40 Kermit Zarley Well, it's it's a tough question to try to explore. You know, I've had some evangelicals leaders, you know, pastors, et cetera, respond to me in the very beginning by saying, hey, we've already been through that. Unitarianism. 37:59 Kermit Zarley Fell apart. Just look at him. They didn't even believe in atonement of Christ. That's the most important thing. I agree with him about that. The most important thing about Christianity is Jesus dying for your sins. 38:12 Kermit Zarley On the cross. 38:13 Kermit Zarley That's the most important thing to believe. 38:16 Kermit Zarley Most of those Unitarians way back there, they didn't believe that. 38:21 Kermit Zarley And the Rakovic Ian's Catechism was published in what, 1604 they asked, so sent us to finish it, which he did. 38:31 Kermit Zarley As I understand it, he did believe in atonement of Christ, but most Unitarians didn't, and so they didn't put it in there. That's really huge. 38:43 Kermit Zarley And so for me, what's most important, the most important thing to believe. 38:49 Kermit Zarley To be a Christian is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, that God raised him from the dead. And then I would say concerning Jesus identity. 39:01 Kermit Zarley The most important is that he's the Messiah of his. 39:04 Kermit Zarley Israel and son of God means pretty much the same thing. Jesus is my Lord and my savior. That's what's most important. He's my savior. Lord. What do I mean by that? He's my master. He gave me this teaching. He says follow me. So learn his teachings. 39:24 Kermit Zarley Try to live according to his teachings and so it's not just believing that Jesus died for your sin, but you must make Jesus Lord of your life to some extent, or you're not a Christian. I don't accept these people saying ohh, I believe in Jesus and then they go off and live like the devil. 39:43 Kermit Zarley I don't think I they're not Christian to me. 39:46 Kermit Zarley It's mostly two things lordship and savior Hood that wasn't there in Unitarianism. And so I agree with their opposition evangelicals making that statement. But I said, well, there's changes going on, people I know who call themselves Unitarian. 40:07 Kermit Zarley They often attach the word biblical or they're monotheistic. Christian, something like that. They certainly do believe Jesus died for their sin. 40:17 Kermit Zarley But there's an awful lot more to say about it it it's amazing how people can get something in their mind and they're so protective of it and they're not willing to be open and listen to what somebody else has to say. You know, Nicodemus said something about this. 40:38 Kermit Zarley You know, he was the man who we read about in John three. He was a member of the San Hedron. Jesus called him the teacher of Israel. 40:50 Kermit Zarley And he came to Jesus by night so that his colleagues wouldn't know, apparently. And Jesus said to him right away, you need to be born again. What? 41:02 Kermit Zarley He's a member of the Sanhedrin. He's a Jew. Jews believe I'm in the Kingdom because I'm a Jew. Now. Jesus said that won't do it. You gotta have a. 41:13 Kermit Zarley Change of your heart. 41:16 Kermit Zarley And so it's this being born again. That was an amazing thing for Nicodemus. Well, apparently it had an impact because there comes a time. Nicodemus is at the temple. This was a feast, and the Jewish leader, religious leaders. 41:37 Kermit Zarley They're trying to get Jesus on teaching against Torah so that they can maybe get him killed for blast. 41:45 Kermit Zarley To me, and so there's all this talk, who is this? Jesus, he says to his colleagues, does not our law require that we hear a person out? 41:57 Kermit Zarley That's what I'm saying about myself. 42:01 Kermit Zarley They needed to hear what Jesus was saying, not just get a an idea about him that he's an apostate and that's it. And don't listen to him. 42:11 Kermit Zarley And try to kill him. 42:13 Kermit Zarley And so I'm just saying, give me a hearing. 42:17 Kermit Zarley Same thing Nicodemus was saying about Jesus. 42:20 Sean Finnegan Yeah, yeah, it it does seem strange to me, because Baptists, in particular Southern Baptist and most evangelicals, they really think of themselves as Bible people. 42:32 Sean Finnegan And I think that's a very good thing. I tend to identify more as a Restorationist than as an evangelical for other reasons. But you know, I I agree with this idea of. 42:44 Sean Finnegan Of finding our beliefs in Scripture rather than in the Westminster Confession or something, Luther said. Or Calvin or whoever. And I just do not see how an honest hearted person can find the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible. 43:04 Sean Finnegan I mean I I know how they do it. Take a half a verse here and 1/3 of a verse there and throw it all in the blender and then you know out pops of Trinity. But there's probably a lot of people who are like you. 43:19 Sean Finnegan Did it have the courage to take all this next steps that you kept taking until now? You're Kermit Zarelli, who writes a book gospel corrupted where you take the gloves off. You know what I mean? Like other people are still in that Nicodemus phase of, you know, just sort of like. 43:39 Sean Finnegan Well, I'm just not going to think about it too much. I don't want to rock the boat. At least that's that would be my guess. 43:47 Kermit Zarley So right on so right on, Sean, what you're saying right there, there's 8 scriptures that mention God. 43:56 Kermit Zarley The son or Jesus and the spirit. But that's not evidence that. 44:03 Kermit Zarley All three of those are gods, and that God is 3 persons. 44:07 Kermit Zarley That does. 44:08 Kermit Zarley Doesn't say that at all, and so no, there's not evidence for the doctor in the Trinity at all in the Bible. 44:15 Kermit Zarley I really think you're right on there. When you say I came to this place in my life and there's probably lots of Christians that this has happened to. 44:26 Kermit Zarley To some degree. 44:28 Kermit Zarley Where they started to question a little bit. 44:31 Kermit Zarley But what happened to me? 44:33 Kermit Zarley Was I just got serious about it. 44:36 Kermit Zarley It also came at a certain time in my life. I may have had something to do with it, cause I'm in a crosswords in my life. What am I gonna do with myself? As far as making a living. And so I just got serious about it. And I kept hanging on the scriptures of Jesus like. 44:58 Kermit Zarley Ask. 44:59 Kermit Zarley And it shall be given to you. Knock. And the door shall be open. Seek and you shall find. 45:08 Kermit Zarley And so I kept claiming that all the time in prayer. 45:13 Kermit Zarley Asking God to show me what is true is Jesus God. 45:19 Kermit Zarley Is. 45:20 Kermit Zarley God, three persons. 45:23 Kermit Zarley I'm praying constantly year after year about this. 45:27 Kermit Zarley And so I just got serious about it. That's all I can say. 45:31 Sean Finnegan Yeah. Well, you also have some other advantage, which is your your income wasn't derived from your Christian conclusions on on this or that question. You were a golfer, not a pastor, and that might have afforded you a little bit of extra freedom as well. 45:39 Kermit Zarley Yeah. 45:50 Kermit Zarley That is really important and of course I say that and and tell about it in the gospel corrupted. I tell my story in that first chapter. 46:00 Sean Finnegan Yeah. Yeah. Over the years now that it's been so long since 2008, the time of this recording is 2024. So yeah, it's been a it's been. 46:10 Sean Finnegan A while. 46:11 Sean Finnegan What is the reception been with the original restitution of Jesus Christ? And then you have the paperback version, which is the just the restitution, and now you have this more recent book. Have you made converts? Have you lost friends? 46:28 Sean Finnegan Could you talk about that a little? 46:30 Kermit Zarley I lost half or more of my closest Christian friends. 46:36 Kermit Zarley I did not come out. I was not telling people much about this, only as I said, only my closest Christian friends, and it wouldn't have been more than probably 20. 46:49 Kermit Zarley You know, I knew this was going to happen. I knew what I was getting into. And so I've had a lot of rejection. It's been difficult going to church. 46:58 Kermit Zarley Where is a church that believes like this? There aren't many of them, and so Christian fellowship. 47:05 Kermit Zarley It's been tough, but hey. 47:09 Kermit Zarley God chose prophets. 47:11 Kermit Zarley He didn't make life easy for them all the time. 47:16 Kermit Zarley And so let's get real. Jesus says, follow me. What happened to him? He went to the cross. 47:25 Kermit Zarley So the New Testament tells us there'll be suffering. Doesn't usually say something about your own. 47:31 Kermit Zarley I believe Trinitarians are brothers and sisters in Christ. 47:36 Kermit Zarley You know, they believed Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead. 47:40 Kermit Zarley That's enough for me. I don't care if you believe God is 3 persons or if Jesus is God. You're still my brother and sister in Christ. I extend the right hand of fellowship to you, but if you're going to tell me that I'm not a Christian. 47:58 Kermit Zarley That's going to make it tough. 48:00 Kermit Zarley I want fellowship with you in Christ. 48:03 Kermit Zarley But if you're going to do that. 48:05 Kermit Zarley Yeah, there's no fellowship in Christ when you do that. 48:10 Kermit Zarley I've had this rejection, that's true, but I I carry on. 48:17 Kermit Zarley How successful have I been with this? Have I convinced people? 48:23 Kermit Zarley Yeah, some are not as much in person on the Internet with my blog Kermit Zarley blog at Patheos, my website kermitzarley.com all my books are there. Tell all about them. All my books. I have 10 published books are all on. 48:43 Kermit Zarley Well, nine of them are on Amazon.com. 48:48 Kermit Zarley I'm a member of the Society of Biblical Literature. I have been since 1999. I've gone to all their annual meetings except I've missed one. Now days when I go. 48:59 Kermit Zarley Professors are coming up to me and saying, hey, I believe like you do. 49:05 Kermit Zarley I read your blog sometimes. 49:08 Kermit Zarley I do this, I do that. I read that book. I did this. Keep on. They encourage me. 49:15 Kermit Zarley I don't feel at liberty to give out their names. 49:20 Kermit Zarley Because they're still at schools. 49:23 Kermit Zarley That are trinitarian. 49:25 Sean Finnegan Yeah. And you don't want to get them fired. That's not the. 49:27 Sean Finnegan Loving thing to do. 49:28 Kermit Zarley That's exactly right. So I'm having some influence. It may not be very much, but. 49:36 Kermit Zarley No matter what happens, I'm going to keep on. 49:38 Sean Finnegan Yeah, well, what advice would you give to others who are spreading this truth today? 49:43 Kermit Zarley I just say don't be belligerent. 49:47 Kermit Zarley Out. 49:48 Kermit Zarley Going around proclaiming that Jesus is not God and God is not a Trinity. 49:56 Kermit Zarley If you can share it. 49:59 Kermit Zarley Well, if people are gonna be so, so antagonistic to you. 50:04 Kermit Zarley My view of that is move on. 50:08 Kermit Zarley You can only go so far and just move on. 50:11 Sean Finnegan OK, what's 1 tendency you see within Unitarian Christianity Today that bothers you, that if you could snap your fingers and change, you would. 50:21 Kermit Zarley If biblical Unitarians say that. 50:27 Kermit Zarley Trinitarians. 50:29 Kermit Zarley Are not safe because they're worshipping idols or whatever they say. You know why a hero is Sir Isaac Newton? He believed, like I do. But at the same time, he said, Trinitarians are idol worshippers. No, I see I disagree with you about that. 50:50 Kermit Zarley They believe Jesus died for their sins on the cross. They believe God raised him from the dead. He's their Lord. They try to live by the teachings of Jesus. No. 51:03 Kermit Zarley We're all in Christ. 51:05 Sean Finnegan So you don't like the sectarian mindset that says? 51:09 Kermit Zarley That's right. 51:10 Sean Finnegan Unitarian Christians are the only ones that are saved, or we're the only faithful remnant. You. You like the idea of saying? Well, look, nobody said believing that the father is the only true God was gospel. 51:23 Kermit Zarley You know, if I have a criticism of biblical Unitarianism, it is that there are some people in it that say Trinitarians are not, say, and I disagree totally with that. I was saved. I was a Trinitarian 22 years. 51:42 Kermit Zarley I was not a non Christian. 51:45 Kermit Zarley That would be my only criticism, but overall I I think very positively about the biblical Unitarian movement, and I consider myself to be a part of it. I don't call myself a Unitarian, but I accept people calling me that. 52:03 Kermit Zarley The only reason I don't call myself a Unitarian is because I criticize Trinitarians for calling themselves the Trinitarian, and my first argument about it is there is no word Trinity in the Bible. There is no word Trinitarian in the Bible. 52:23 Kermit Zarley There is the word Christian in the Bible, and those early disciples of Jesus eventually were accepting people, calling them Christians. They did not object to that. 52:38 Kermit Zarley That's what I call myself. I call myself A1 God Christian, and I do that reason I I'm bringing home a point to them. 52:44 Sean Finnegan OK. 52:46 Sean Finnegan That makes sense. 52:50 Kermit Zarley God is one. 52:54 Sean Finnegan Anything else you'd like to add? Just as we're wrapping up here, maybe maybe we should talk about the new book a little bit. Gospel corrupted. Who's? 53:02 Sean Finnegan That book for. 53:04 Kermit Zarley OK, that looks for anybody. It's easy. 53:08 Kermit Zarley Eating. 53:09 Kermit Zarley There's there's not much in the way of there's some interaction with theologians, but and some footnotes, but it's a it's a primer for the restitution. 53:20 Kermit Zarley The restitution is it gets heavy, it gets deep. 53:24 Kermit Zarley You know, I get right down to it 570 pages and you know you. 53:30 Kermit Zarley In the book I interact with scholars all the time. In that book, both sides. 53:35 Sean Finnegan That's a scholarly approach to the the whole subject. 53:36 Kermit Zarley And. 53:38 Kermit Zarley Yeah. And that's for people who they want to know. Hey, what does this verse mean? It says here in the beginning of the Gospel of John and the and the word was God. 53:49 Kermit Zarley And then over here in verse 14 it says and the word took flesh. Well, that's Jesus. So back in verse one, the word is God that must mean Jesus God. Or what about Thomas? Thomas said to Jesus, my Lord and my God. And So what about these verses? 54:10 Kermit Zarley You're saying Jesus is not God, but these verses seem to say he is well. See I getting a nitty gritty on that. I got 20 pages on both of those or Philippians 26 and seven. And so for people who want to really get into it Bible study, that's the book for them. 54:30 Kermit Zarley I might mention, Sean, because of what's going on in the world right now, I've got, I said I had 10 books over on Amazon.com. Two books are are relate to things that are happening right now. I have a Trump. 54:47 Kermit Zarley And so that's controversial. The title of that book is Bible, predicts Trump fall. 54:55 Kermit Zarley I started saying this at the very beginning of Donald Trump's presence. In fact, his campaign for the presidency in 2015, I was citing Bible verses showing what's going to happen, and it's been happening. But. 55:10 Kermit Zarley Palestine is coming is very relevant to what's going on now with the war in Gaza and the student protests on the campuses. And so people might be interested to know what my book says Palestine is coming. I'm saying there's gonna be a Palestinian state. It's not going to be in the West Bank. 55:30 Kermit Zarley It's going to be in the coastal plain pretty much right where the land of the philistines. So those two books people could be interested in those but. 55:39 Sean Finnegan Now I did notice too that you have this subtitle or something like that that says still here. 55:45 Sean Finnegan Is that talk about that? Is that like the opposite of left behind is that I thought I thought it might be. 55:51 Kermit Zarley It is and that's all. 55:54 Kermit Zarley Yeah, here's what happened. Scott McKnight and I were ruined together at SBL. In fact, that's when we were running with Jimmy Dunn, too. Just Scott and I were in the room at this particular moment, and we're talking about left behind. The scholars used to get kind of Jo. 56:03 Oh wow. 56:13 Kermit Zarley Of Tim Lahey and I've left behind the success, you know, millions and millions of books and they would trash left behind. They didn't believe in pre trip anyway. And so, you know, Scott was like this. And so we were joking. 56:33 Kermit Zarley And Scott, he's azar. Man, I know what we need to do. We need to write a book called still here in opposition to let behind. And I said. 56:44 Kermit Zarley I laughed and I said, wait a minute, Scott, that's a good idea. I have been praying for years. What am I gonna do with this material? I've got all these notes and my studies on eschatology. What am I going to do? 57:00 Kermit Zarley That was my answer to prayer, and I've seen the title of my series. 57:01 Sean Finnegan So you did the still here series. 57:07 Kermit Zarley So I have a series on biblical eschatology. It's called still here, and there's four books published. The first book is the third day Bible code. The second book is warrior from Heaven. That's about the second coming of Christ and everything after then along comes. 57:26 Kermit Zarley Moses predicted COVID-19. 57:28 Kermit Zarley Mean. 57:29 Kermit Zarley So that's controversial. That's about the food laws barely. And then the Trump book. My next book will be about Jesus second coming. I've got a book with the title late. Great plastic empire. 57:30 Sean Finnegan Sounds like it. 57:34 OK. 57:47 Sean Finnegan As opposed to late Great planet Earth. 57:50 Kermit Zarley Yeah, because Lindsey and I came from the same church racket. 57:53 Sean Finnegan Oh wow. 57:54 Kermit Zarley And he turned me on to biblical eschatology. 57:58 Sean Finnegan It's incredible how many of these big names you know in person. You've met these folks, you know, Ed Clowney was extremely influential for Tim Keller. Our C sprawl influenced millions of people with his radio show. 58:15 Sean Finnegan James Dunn is literally a legend in Christology, especially Unitarian Christology, which I I don't think that he necessarily was a Unitarian, but his research was very. 58:28 Sean Finnegan It's really incredible. All the shoulders you've rubbed over the years. God has kind of given you access to certain people over time. You know, it seems like you've been able to, and your friendship with Scott as well. You've been able to make some inroads there. I have a friend who is a Trinitarian pastor. 58:49 Sean Finnegan You know, you see this from time to time on my podcast where Trinitarian will be interested in some other subject that I'm covering on the podcast. And you know they'll join and listen for a little while, and then they'll find out I'm a non trinitarian and they'll what's going on here. And. But then sometimes they stay and they're like, you know what, I don't agree with you. 59:10 Sean Finnegan On this one thing, but you know, I still enjoy your work. 59:15 Sean Finnegan What would you say to to folks in that category? You know that in the previous times there were not as many people like that. But I think over time there's coming more and more where they're like, you know what, I don't agree with you, but I can call you a Christian brother. 59:32 Kermit Zarley Yeah. 59:32 Sean Finnegan You know what, what would you say to somebody in that category? 59:36 Kermit Zarley Well, I I just believe it. It's an important issue. 59:41 Kermit Zarley And so I wouldn't just lay it aside and say. 59:45 Kermit Zarley That's too much of an intellectual exercise. You know, if I was to change on this, it's going to negatively affect me socially. Ecclesiastically meaning church friends and all that. If you're going to be serious about following Jesus. 1:00:05 Kermit Zarley Those things should not stop you from trying to discover the truth. 1:00:13 Kermit Zarley Of God. 1:00:15 Sean Finnegan Very good. I think some people would hear what you said before about it not being a salvation issue and say, oh, well, then it doesn't matter. 1:00:25 Sean Finnegan And that's not what you're saying. You're saying it does matter. It's not a salvation issue, but it is important. 1:00:31 Kermit Zarley Which would you rather believe? 1:00:33 Kermit Zarley The real Jesus. 1:00:36 Kermit Zarley Or a caricature of him. I believe church fathers made a mistake. They made a mistake. The Bible does not say Jesus is God. That's really important. 1:00:49 Kermit Zarley When you go out for claim, the Christian gospel to the world. 1:00:56 Kermit Zarley That makes a difference whether you're saying Jesus is God or no. 1:01:01 Kermit Zarley That makes a difference. There are people out there who say Nah, man can't be God. And so they turn you off to your message. So you're losing all those people. 1:01:14 Kermit Zarley I'm not saying it's a whole lot, but. 1:01:18 Kermit Zarley People were thinkers. 1:01:20 Kermit Zarley There's a lot of them. 1:01:22 Kermit Zarley We're gonna say that it's so important to know who Jesus really is. If you're going to be a follower of Jesus, if you're gonna give your life to this man, this Jew. 1:01:35 Kermit Zarley Who says he's of God and he's brought the message of God. And then he went to the cross for it. And you're gonna give your life to him. 1:01:45 Kermit Zarley It's important to know who he really is. 1:01:48 Sean Finnegan Absolutely, yeah. 1:01:51 Sean Finnegan Very good. 1:01:51 Kermit Zarley So yeah, don't go so far as to say it's a Salvation Army issue. 1:01:57 Kermit Zarley That's right. 1:01:58 Kermit Zarley But I I do think it's extremely important to get it right. 1:02:02 Sean Finnegan All right. Anything else you'd like to cover before we finish up? OK. 1:02:05 Kermit Zarley I think that's it, Sean. I really appreciate your work. I you have the restitution. I love that people can go online there and and read all the comments. Read what you're saying and others are saying. And so I encourage people to do that. 1:02:21 Sean Finnegan Very good. Well, thanks for joining me today. 1:02:24 Sean Finnegan Joe. 1:02:25 Kermit Zarley I love it. 1:02:34 Sean Finnegan Well, that brings this interview to a close. What did you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find Episode 553 Pro golfer turned christologies T tells all with Kermit Zarley and leave your questions, comments and feedback there. 1:02:50 Sean Finnegan Our last episode, seminary convinced me the Trinity is wrong with Suzanne Lakin. 1:02:56 Sean Finnegan And we got quite a few comments in on the YouTube version of that episode. 1:03:05 Sean Finnegan In fact, over 50 comments of different kinds of folks, some that are critical, some that are in agreement, couple of conversations back and forth and so on with over 1000. 1:03:16 Sean Finnegan Views. 1:03:18 Sean Finnegan Anyhow, I figured I'd read out a couple of them and comment on the comments because that's so much fun for me. Anyhow, I thought I'd read out a couple of them, Larry and wrote, and you both should look into Catholicism in order to understand Christianity, including the Bible, better in a coherent manner. I don't know how. 1:03:38 Sean Finnegan No hearing that comment was, but that's actually not the only comments in favor of Catholicism. Somebody named HB and then a string of what appears to be random letters. 1:03:49 Sean Finnegan Said I'll take the 2000 year Catholic teachings, doctors, leaders, visionaries, miracle witnesses, martyrs and popes over this last. 1:03:59 Sean Finnegan So first of all, I do want to say that it is a delight to have Catholics listening to the show. I think that's just so cool. We should have conversation across the aisle. I think it is actually really helpful. 1:04:13 Sean Finnegan However, whether you are smug in your biblical Unitarianism or smug in your Catholic Trinitarianism, smugness is just not what is helpful for this dialogue. I don't think saying, hey, just agree with Catholicism because it's better is. 1:04:33 Sean Finnegan Really a constructive thing to say or to say that they have so many famous educators or theologians or. 1:04:40 Sean Finnegan Whatever. Yeah, we have those too, in biblical Unitarianism going right back into literally the beginning of the Old Testament because the whole testament is Biblical Unitarian. Just read it. Do you think Moses believed in the Trinity? 1:04:55 Sean Finnegan Do you think Isaiah believed in the Trinity? Do you think that Ezra believed in the Trinity? Of course not. They were all biblical Unitarians. They believed in the Bible, but not the Trinity. 1:05:06 Sean Finnegan And even once the Trinity was formulated, there were still lots of Christians who chose to remain Unitarian, and they suffer the consequences as a result. So yeah, I mean, we we could point to 2nd century, 3rd century, 4th century, 5th century. What, whatever. My point is simply this, everybody's got their stock. 1:05:26 Sean Finnegan Heroes and stock historical figures to point to, but that's not really helpful. 1:05:32 Sean Finnegan Was helpful, especially in dialogue with the Catholics, is to establish and agreed upon method for proceeding. And I I don't want to sound too Protestant, but I, but I just AM. And so my. 1:05:49 Sean Finnegan Suggestion would be the Bible as the arbiter of if this way of thinking about something is correct or not, it's one of the very few things that Catholics and Protestants can both agree on as being from God as being authoritative, and that's an important word. 1:06:07 Sean Finnegan That if the Scripture teaches something and we disagree with it, we're the ones that are wrong. That's what I mean by authoritative. So I I would really want to engage with a biblical study on the subject. And I think if we do that, the burden of proof. 1:06:23 Sean Finnegan Is really on. 1:06:24 Sean Finnegan The Trinitarian side. 1:06:27 Sean Finnegan To be able to defend this idea, and it just won't do to go to a smattering of texts that say. 1:06:35 Sean Finnegan In some translations that Jesus is God saying Jesus is God is not the same as saying that Jesus is God in a Nicene or Trinitarian or in the same substance as the father sense. 1:06:51 Sean Finnegan It's just not going to get us there. There are several other ways in which the phrase Jesus is God can be understood. For example, the Greco-roman perspective on Jesus is God is that he is just an immortalized human. That's one of their definitions for a God. 1:07:09 Sean Finnegan Another definition is the more Jewish Hebrew istic definition, as the lexicons will put it. If you look up the word Elohim in the Hebrew lexicon or Theos in a Greek lexicon, you'll find this definition that humans can be addressed as God or referred to as gods because they represent. 1:07:29 Sean Finnegan Not so. There are other ways of thinking about the same phrase other than Nicea. Nicea is 300 years after Christ, 300 years afterwards, and Nicea. Far from settling the issue. 1:07:44 Sean Finnegan Caused a great controversy that lasted another 60 years of intense battle, so to say that Nicea settled it as this one, commenter Jay the Fit wrote in Arianism, lingers even into today. Arius was a terrible theologian, as an Alexandrian priest, the Council of Nicea put the heresy of Arianism. 1:08:05 Sean Finnegan The bed in the 4th century, the New Testament scriptures are unambiguous as to the deity of Christ, and he goes on from there. 1:08:14 Sean Finnegan No. 1:08:15 Sean Finnegan No, the Council of Nicea did not put the quote UN quote heresy of Arianism, which I by that I assume he means that Jesus is not eternal. 1:08:25 Sean Finnegan No, that did not put that idea to bed in the 4th century. That idea spread and grew well through the 4th century and into the 5th century. 1:08:37 Sean Finnegan It it did not do anything to put anything to bed at all. All it did was cause more heartache and trouble when the emperor started to get involved in church doctrine. And really we've been reeling from that. 1:08:50 Sean Finnegan That. 1:08:51 Sean Finnegan Imperial invasion of church decision making. Ever since, in many contexts around the world, even to this day. So yeah, that's not that's not going to do that to me. That like saying that the nice scenes defeated the Aryans is not an argument that's not even historically true. 1:09:11 Sean Finnegan Until 381 under Theodosius. But that's not what he's talking about here, so. 1:09:18 Sean Finnegan Yeah, let's get back to the Bible people. Let's, let's use our God-given ability to reason things out. And that's why I do find the analytic theologian approach a little more attractive than the sort of smug confessionalism that comes across in a lot of these comments. 1:09:35 Sean Finnegan Because the analytic theologian wants to actually define things and figure them out, rather than just sweep them under the rug and say yes, we're we're saying the words. We don't know what they mean, but that's fine. God's a mystery. 1:09:48 Sean Finnegan Well, I'm sure there are many aspects of God that are mysterious and beyond our comprehension. 1:09:54 Sean Finnegan So let's not codify creeds on those things that we don't know what they mean. Let's allow freedom on those things because we don't know what they mean. 1:10:03 Sean Finnegan The problem is when we say you have to say these words and nobody knows what they mean and if you don't say these words, you're kicked out of the church. To me, that is inconsistent with the tenor, the spirit of Scripture itself, and certainly the way Jesus carried himself and spy. 1:10:21 Sean Finnegan Then we had a couple of others talking about the fact that Suzanne had been a Jehovah's Witness. 1:10:28 Sean Finnegan Again, still referring to our episode from last week, one of them said she is just a JW Rewrapped. 1:10:35 Sean Finnegan OK, that's obviously not true. She was a Jehovah's Witness for seven years. 1:10:40 Sean Finnegan But that's not where she learned that the Trinity was false. She just grew up with that belief. She was from a Jewish. 1:10:48 Sean Finnegan Background. I think smearing her with, like association with the JW's is it's just not fair. Nor is it true. What she said is that she had done seven years with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but the way she made it sound is more like it was doing seven years in. 1:11:04 Sean Finnegan Prison, rather than seven years of joy filled, satisfied. 1:11:09 Sean Finnegan Life when she left the Jehovah's Witnesses, she was so disturbed that that she nearly despaired of life itself and became essentially an agnostic, atheist, agnostic, something like that. For over a decade. So yeah, I would not lump her in with the Jehovah's Witnesses, someone else commented on the Jehovah's Witness aspect of Suzanne's story, saying I'm a Jehovah's Witness. 1:11:32 Sean Finnegan I am happy I was disfellowshipped. 1:11:34 Sean Finnegan I am surprised people feel uncomfortable because there was some misunderstanding on some prophecies, so weak as the faith of a person that she needs to have infallible leaders. Her faith was concentrated on herself rather than God. All the leaders of God's people made mistakes. Moses, Paul, Peter, Prophets, and there were always people who left because of them. 1:11:55 Sean Finnegan She has the characteristic of those people who criticized the men God had put as their leaders that this is a genuinely confusing comment. It's like, alright, so you're a Jehovah's Witness and you're happy you were disfellowshipped, but you still criticized Suzanne because. 1:12:11 Sean Finnegan As she criticized the leaders making false prophecies about the year 1975, which she lived through, she joined in 1974. 1:12:20 Sean Finnegan The Jehovah's Witnesses said the end of the world was coming in 1975 or as they like to call it Armageddon. Then it didn't happen. So that's Suzanne's fault? I don't think so. 1:12:31 Sean Finnegan And then someone named Decca wrote in. I don't think most people grasp the gravity of the JW, soteriological implications of her statement. It's either suicide. 1:12:41 Sean Finnegan Or dot dot dot very heart wrenching, yes, that's what I was trying to say a moment ago. It's not like she was promoting the Jehovah's Witnesses. She wasn't promoting them. She's saying she had a miserable experience and she landed in unbelief thereafter. 1:13:00 Sean Finnegan And then there were a few other comments on this post. So yeah, like I said, over 50 of them so far as of the time of this recording. If you on YouTube. 1:13:10 Sean Finnegan If you want to join in, there's plenty of conversation, so appreciate those of you who are fighting the good fight in the YouTube comments. I think it. I think it matters. I don't know to what degree you're going to change anyone else's mind, but I think it matters for lurkers, especially, who just stumble upon a video. I did give our last episode of rather salacious. 1:13:30 Sean Finnegan Title Seminary convinced me the Trinity is wrong. 1:13:34 Sean Finnegan Maybe to some degree that's what is getting people. 1:13:36 Sean Finnegan All riled up. 1:13:38 Sean Finnegan But that's her story. That's that's what she experienced. She went to seminary thinking, I mean, go to seminary. I'm they're going to tell me with all their fancy theology and church history. And learned professors the secret to understanding this. 1:13:53 Sean Finnegan Doctrine I'm going to agree with this doctrine of the Trinity. I'm going to fit in in my church at home, I'm going to. 1:14:00 Sean Finnegan Put this issue to bed in my heart and just move on to other things. That's her perspective. Going to seminary. Her perspective is not as a Jehovah's Witness. She hadn't been a Jehovah's Witness for over a decade, multiple decades. If I have the timeline right before attending seminary, she went to a black church in California. And then. 1:14:20 Sean Finnegan He went to a CMA Missionary Alliance church. These are very evangelical churches. You know what I mean? She's not. She's not coming from that point of view, she's not. 1:14:33 Sean Finnegan A secret spy brought in to find the weaknesses of the Trinitarian explanation in evangelical summit? No, she's an honest hard person who just wanted to pursue the truth wherever it leads and what she found was not sufficient to convince her that it was right. In fact, it was sufficient to convince her that it was wrong. 1:14:54 Sean Finnegan And then she came across Kermit Zarley's book The Restitution of Jesus Christ the origin. 1:15:00 Sean Finnegan Version and that book is what started to introduce her to other biblical Unitarian authors and ministries. So and then she realized that she wasn't crazy, that there were others who believed, like she did. So props to Kermit Zarley for the good work that he did way back when the loan. 1:15:20 Sean Finnegan Prophet in the wilderness crying out, prepare the way of the Lord and I think he his work has borne fruit. 1:15:28 Sean Finnegan I I know that for a fact over the years and Suzanne is just one of the people that this, this work has helped. So thanks Kermit. Thanks Suzanne. If any of you would like to come on to the website restitutio.org, you can find these episodes and comments there also on the episode. 1:15:48 Sean Finnegan On the website I have the embedded YouTube if you want to get to the YouTube quick and easy. That way you can subscribe to rest of studio in whatever podcast app you use for the audio version or you. 1:16:01 Sean Finnegan Can get it on. 1:16:02 Sean Finnegan YouTube The Youtubes are raw and unedited so they tend to be longer and not have as much information, especially this outro part that I'm doing here. But some people prefer YouTube so that's fine. If you'd like to support this ministry you can do that at restitutio.org next week we've got. 1:16:23 Sean Finnegan Zach Mayo of New Zealand, who's going to be giving us details about the Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference in New Zealand coming up this November 22nd to the 24th. So can't wait to talk about that next week, I'll catch you. 1:16:38 Sean Finnegan Then and remember, the truth has nothing to fear.