This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 527: Should Christians Celebrate Christmas? with Dale Tuggy This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Sean Finnegan: Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to Restitutio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. Should Christians celebrate the birth of Christ? If so, where should we draw the line with respect to ancient Pagan customs, like bringing an Evergreen tree into our houses or giving presents to each other? How much Pagan practice is too much? My guest today is philosopher Dale Tuggy, the host of the Trinities podcast, and the chair of the Board of the Unitarian Christian. Alliance. However, in this episode, we're not talking about analytic theology or Christology. Instead, we're discussing Christmas and how Christians should think about. Tuggy thoughtfully argues that Christians have the freedom to celebrate or. Not celebrate Christmas. It's kind of like a Christmas special episode today and I hope you enjoy the conversation here. Now is episode 527. Should Christians celebrate Christmas with Doctor Dale Tucson? Welcome Dale Tuggy to restitutio. Thanks for talking with me today. Dale Tuggy: Thanks, Sean. Always a pleasure to be on Resto studio. Sean Finnegan: This time of year, most Christians celebrate Christmas. However, there is a minority of folks who say Christmas is Pagan and that Christians should not be celebrating it. I thought today would be good to have a Christmas special episode on whether or not Christians should be allowed to celebrate Christmas. Where would you like to get started on this topic? I mean, do you think? Christmas is Pagan. Dale Tuggy: No, I don't. But I think a good place to start might be my own repentance. I used to be kind of judgmental about this. You know, why do these people have to be such grinches and spoil sports? But then you get a historical perspective on it and you learn that before sometime in the middle of the 1800s, most Protestants didn't celebrate Christmas. It just seemed kind of too Catholic to them or what. You know, it's called Christ mass. My own perspective now is, you know, I'm trying to imitate Paul and Romans 14, he says. Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds, those who observe the day observe it for the Lord, and also those who eat, eat for the Lord, since they give thanks to God while those who abstain. Abstain for the Lord and give thanks to God. So if you celebrate Christmas, I think that's great. You should honor God and how you do it. If you feel like that's. Not in the Bible, and it's got associations with things that you disagree with and you don't want to do it. I think that's fine. You should honor God on that day in your way. And I don't think either side should judge each other. So I've repented of my past judgment against the. Christmas dislikes. Sean Finnegan: So you've always been a pro Christmas person. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, I was in, you know, kind of a typical American Christian family. And we always had the tree in the presence and everything. And my parents made a big deal out of it when we were little. Sean Finnegan: OK, So what would you say to somebody that alleges that Christmas is just purpose Pagan? Practices and that Christians have no business doing it. How would you explain yourself in that kind of? Scenario well. Dale Tuggy: Cultural appropriation is the birthright of the human race. We all are stealing stuff from each other constantly. Every group of people that's ever lived has found out about something cool or interesting or innovative or beautiful, that the tribe next door was doing. And so they steal it and put their own spin on it. You know, think about stealing recipes from various ethnic groups or styles of music. You don't just steal it, you transform it and you turn it into something different, right? And then later, those guys steal it back from you. And I just think this is part of what humans do. It's part of. The way that we enjoy the differences between each other so you know if we're stealing things from Pagans, I don't see why. As long as it's not things that are wrong. You know, things that are intrinsically sinful or harmful. Then I'm. I'm like this. This is just normal stealing. That's part of human life. But if someone wants to say, hey, look, I just think this is Pagan. I mean, look, it's it's not, it's just Catholic, right? Take the Christmas tree. If you go back in time 1000 years ago, you can find Pagans who invest this tree with a certain meaning, and they're using it in a certain way. But if you just ask your Christmas celebrating Christian friend what they mean by it? It's just, I don't know. It's just this funny thing we do at Christmas. It's where we stick our presents under. It doesn't really mean, you know, what does it symbolize? Which which? Pagan God is it honoring? None like they. That's just not in their minds, right? The meaning of a ritual. Is what it is because of what's in the minds of the celebrants and what's in kind of the collective social. Understanding, right. So suppose you you see this religious group from afar, you can't quite hear what they're doing. But you get your binoculars out and you, you're looking at them while they're having a service. This religious group that you're unfamiliar with. And it looks like they're doing exactly what your church does when they when you guys celebrate communion. So you know whether you pass around a cup and break off a piece of bread, or you have the little itty bitty Baptist cups. And the little? Pieces of unleavened bread or whatever. However you do it, these people are doing it exactly the same, where you can just watch them go through all the steps. OK. And then after the service is over, you go up and talk to them and say, hey, what are you guys, what kind of what kind of Christians are you and they they act shocked and horrified? And they're like. No, we're pagans. We're worshipping mother Earth here, and all the traditional deities of the druids. You're like, what on Earth? Now? Look, you don't think that they've inadvertently honored God and Jesus. Do you? Because they have stolen these forms that are used by Christians? It's not Christian. Sean Finnegan: You you wouldn't say they got Christianized, they got played. And they're, like, accidentally giving honor to Christ. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, like. Suckers. You accidentally worshipped our God. No, it's it. It means what they think it means. You know what? What they're doing with it depends on their beliefs. And so on. OK, so if that doesn't make them accidentally holy, then if we steal something from the pagans and give it our own meaning. Like eating, you know, baking a certain cake or having a log on the fire or having this tree decoration in our house or exchanging presents. UM, it's not Pagan just because they came up with it. It is what we make of it. So if we're going around saying all of this is honoring the birth of Christ. And we're not doing things that dishonor Christ and God being super greedy or. Getting drunk or doing other rotten things. Sean Finnegan: Getting in fights at the toy store. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, getting getting in a fist fight at the Christmas dinner table. It looks like Paul. Is saying God and Christ are going to be honored. By things that you do, whether you abstain or whether you partake in these things, which in and of themselves, these things are innocent, right? Like, how would the medieval pagans be so powerful that they could just eternally corrupt pine trees? Or, you know, wrapping gifts up in pretty paper and exchanging them, or having the fees like they they just don't have that much power. They're just people like us. And in a sense, all things are good and all things belong to God. And so we can honor God with these things. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I think there's something about the darkness of this time of year as well. And I've noticed that there's just so many holidays like up, up near me. I'm in New York, so it's maybe a little darker than other parts of the United States that are South and other countries that are closer to the equator. But by me it gets dark at 4:00, 4/30 and at the latest, and really from October onwards we have all of these holidays. You know, we've got Halloween, we've got Thanksgiving, we've got Christmas, we've got New Year's and it's just like Bang, Bang, bang, bang, bang. Really, from the time when it starts getting dark, we start having these holidays and these kind of holidays often. Have light associated with them. You know I don't get into decorating my my house. Certainly not for Halloween. And that's really a whole nother subject, to be honest. But a lot of people. Do and you know, it kind of makes sense that, you know, for Christmas, for Halloween, people are bringing light on their houses. For Christmas, this idea of decorating your lawn with these, what illuminated and. Tables and then bringing, but they're they're big now in the suburbs. Let me tell you. And then you bring a tree in and you wrap it with lights and you have it lit. You know, I think there's something in the human psyche that that sort of like finds comfort in lighting things in the dark time of the year. So I don't think it's all that accidental. Dale Tuggy: Yeah. The kind of things you're describing are the kind of things that are, you know, Irish and Norse ancestors, you know, northern Europe. It's dark for this part of the year and dank and kind of miserable. And yeah, it's probably not an accident that you know, you see traditions like this in Germany and England and. Places, sure, yeah. Sean Finnegan: And the the tree also smells good if you if you get a real tree. I I suppose if you have an artificial tree, what do you what do you spray it or something with a chemical? But sorry. Yeah, you're hearing my snobbery coming out there. Dale Tuggy: Well, you just missed the smell. Sean Finnegan: My wife likes to decorate the house with pine branches and winterberry. Anyhow, you know, even after Christmas and all that is is over. You know, there's just something nice about having. And the. The pine odor in the house and you know, there's something pretty about it. So you know, I don't think it's necessarily something that has great significance other than this is just like a a nice way to to bring the outside in, in this time of. Dale Tuggy: Year. Yeah, yeah. And yet it's still a matter of conscience, you know, for some of our Unitarian Christian brethren, they just really strongly associate these traditions. With quote Christendom. Or with Roman Catholicism, or with just Trinitarian. They correctly point out that there's all this stuff also broken out this time of year about how God's a baby and Mary's changing God's diapers and. All of this, you know he's running the universe as a baby. And yeah, this is this is nonsensical, ridiculous stuff. And you, you know, some of the Christmas carols, have you know, kind of nice scene stuff in them about. The deity of Christ and so on. Our approach in my family and our churches, we just edit out those verses. You know so much for verse three, and then we sing the rest. Of the song. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I've got a quote for you. Hark, the Herald Angels saying there's a verse in it that says Christ by highest heaven adored. Christ is the everlasting Lord. Late in time, behold him. Come, offspring of a virgin's womb, veiled in flesh. The God had see. Hailed the Incarnate deity. Or then there's the Mary. Did you know song? Did you know that your baby boy has walked where angels trod? When you kiss your little baby, you kiss the face of. God. So you know, you do have this erroneous theology that I can see why some people say, well, this just taints Christmas and I don't wanna have anything to do with it. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, there's there's some really egregious kind of mystery mongering. You know, they're like, look, he's omnipotent, but he's a baby. Isn't that a contradiction? But some people enjoy mystery mongering. It's it's a hobby. Right. So yeah, if you if this just feels dirty to you, you know, you shouldn't do it. Then if you don't feel like you could steal this stuff in good conscience, then yeah, don't don't do it. But don't pass judgment on people who. You know, feel like they're honoring God and Christ by doing this, and they just stick to the biblical stuff. They read Matthew and Luke. And they edit out that verse and sing the rest, which is perfectly Bible. And you know, let each one do what what they think will be best for them and their family and in the way that they want to please God. There's other nonsense too, right, like. There's a ridiculous amount of overspending that Americans engage in this time of year. Just buying stupid stuff, irresponsibly racking the credit cards up, and then there's all this silly kind of, you know, Santa and Rudolph and Frosty the snowman. And kind of dopey Christmas songs I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus, which are questionable and taste. If you want to be a Grinch, there's plenty of material here. There's you have to admit that. Sean Finnegan: Well, even the. Grinch itself. There you go. There's another bizarro tradition. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, it's evolved to become a central holiday for our particular culture. Atheists celebrate Christmas. It's a it's just a big time off. To go hang with the family and feast and and do some fun things. That makes it harder to pass up on. It's a little bit countercultural to not celebrate Christmas, but that's why there's all the nonsense, because it's like our biggest this and Thanksgiving, I think for Americans are are kind of the biggest holidays where. It's just an opportunity for all these social goods. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. What about people? That and you see this this time of year? They quote Jeremiah 10. Verse three says for the customs of the peoples are vanity a tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a Craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold. They fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move. Isn't the Christmas tree an idle? Dale Tuggy: Well, you know whether something is an idle depends on how it's used. So the way idolatry works is, and this is true in Hinduism and Buddhism and Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox. The IDOLATER believes that when the idol is properly set up and commissioned, whether it's a tree or a statue or an icon, they believe that when it's properly installed somehow what's represented by it is there, or you have access to it. So it's supposed to be like this technology by which you can access sometimes God or Saints, or various polytheistic deities. Well, if you do it right, then when the idle is properly set up, it's like this access point that gives you now. Now they'll listen to you right now, they'll hear your prayers now. Maybe they'll help you out. And so on. So that's what they're doing and you can just talk to your Hindu neighbor. You know, what are you doing when you? You offer fire and a little snack to this statue of this guy with the elephant head. You know, and they'll they'll tell you. Sometimes they believe that they experience, you know, the idle looking back at them and so on. I've had people tell me that. So all of these. Idle worshipping components I think, are totally absent. The way that the average person now uses Christmas trees. You don't see them with their hands together, gazing at the Christmas tree, hoping to experience some deity. Through it, it's just a silly decoration. You know? They don't. They don't bow to it. They don't give it offerings. They don't put it to bed at night, like sometimes idolaters do. Sean Finnegan: I think the average American is so underexposed to modern day idolatry that they these are not obvious to them. Dale Tuggy: Yeah. Yeah. The two biggest countries in the world are just filled with idolatry from top to bottom. China and India. Literal idolatry, not like loving your car too much or. Being a bit on the greedy side like no like, but up in the air, face down the floor in front of this objects. So yeah, if you don't have those elements, I don't think it's idle worship. I don't fully understand what was going on with what Jeremiah was talking about, but I have to assume it's some kind of. God of the forest, or fertility or harvest or something, right? That. They their their Pagan neighbors were. Idolatry, you're always you're always trying to get something right, because this is the God of fill in the blank. And if you do this stuff right and you honor the God of fill in the blank. The way that they want to be honored, they'll help you. Whatever win a war, get pregnant, have a better harvest, make more money. So I assume it was one of those kind of things and. It's kind of like other magical practices or astrology, the horoscope and things like that. It's hard for us to understand, but when your neighbors are doing these things and they're telling you that it works. Then there's this temptation to just try it, like maybe maybe it doesn't work, or maybe it does, but. My neighbor Fred said that this magical practice works, so maybe I'll just cover my bases and do that too. OK. Well then you've just stopped trusting in God. To that extent, you're trying to pull these secret levers and push these magical buttons. And so it really conflicts with trust in the Almighty. And that's why God is against this. But that's why the Israelites were constantly tempted by it. Because. They had people around them at all times. Who were doing these practices and saying that it works? So it's it's a temptation. It's not as much a temptation for us, except like I said, for those superstitions that are current in our day. Like the horoscope. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So there's no question that there is such a thing as winter solstice, that ancient Pagan people wanted to recognize it in some way. We had the festival to Seoul, Invictus, we had Saturnalia in the Roman Empire, and it seems to be just a matter of the. Historical record that the. Early Church of what? The 4th century or so reappropriated these holidays as a a Christian time of year, you're not denying any of that. Dale Tuggy: No, I there was a certain point. Late, ancient and early medieval times where the Catholic Church adopted this as a strategy. Partly because of what we were mentioning before that Pagan cultures, they usually have a big series of holidays and feasts and festivals, and they're socially very important. They were so important, people didn't really want to give them up, so they just tried to hijack them and christianize them. Now, whatever you think of that, whether you would have strongly disagreed at the time or whatever, my point would be that the pagans are just long gone, like nobody even knows what these things mean anymore. So then how is it that they would have the power these pagans from 1500 years ago or 2000 years ago? How would they have the power to permanently ruin these things for us? I could understand why if you were in. A Pagan context. Say you live in India among Hindus, where that's a vast majority of the population. You could argue that you know they do that. Uh, what are they? I figure what they call it, but they draw those fancy designs on the ground and colored powder. For some of their holidays, it's really kind of cool. They make these super fancy designs on the ground in in colored powder and I I'm sure it has some magical or religious meaning, right? You could imagine some Christians just stealing that and. Drawing a Manger scene or something, or giving a totally different interpretation because they they still want to have that type of holiday, but they don't want to have the Hindu interpretation. OK, you could argue for that or against that. And you know, you wouldn't want to do it if it made your neighbors thought that you were. Still a Hindu, once you were a Christian, right? OK, but then subtract all the all the idol worshipping neighbors out of it, and then it's kind of like, who cares, you know what this used to mean to these other people? What matters to us is what it means to us when we do. Sean Finnegan: You know, and there are so many other quote UN quote Pagan things like our days of the. Week our months of the year the Olympics is originally Pagan. Bonfires are Pagan, covering your mouth when you yawn to prevent evil spirits from entering your body. Right? I mean, pants were worn by the. Germanic pagans, so you know we can't wear pants anymore. Should we go to the toga? Ohh, no. Those are. That's for the Roman pagans. So what do we just need to all wear spandex, you know? Like, come on. This this just doesn't work to say I'm going to avoid all things the pagans did or practices the pagans had. I think the better way to do it is to appropriate them in a way that conforms with your beliefs, which seems to be what you're. Argument four years. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, because I mean, Pagans kind of do everything. You know, they they have their hands all over the place. But. We we can't believe that all of these things are just corrupted for us just because these people do. They're just people, you know, I mean, here, here's another thing that you could argue might be Pagan in origin. You know the early Christians when they started having this Sunday gathering this love feast. This was a feast in honor of God and Christ. And there were pagans that had. A ritual dinner together in honor of their deities. Paul somewhere says, you know you don't want to go participate in this feast in honor of, you know, Hermes or whatever. Because he he suggests that that there's actually demons involved in that. But I mean the form that they took, I think having a feast in honor of an the unseen guest, you know? That, in a sense that was a form that the pagans were using. But So what again, the the mean of a ritual is the meaning that's given to it by the participant. The individuals and the social context so. I can't go into the feast in honor of Hermes and just sort of think to myself that this is OK. I'm going to honor Christ by doing this and just not tell anybody. That would be kind of ridiculous. Right. But when it's generally understood that this is the meaning of it. Well, that's why I wouldn't go to that feast. But that's why I'll go to the to the one in in. Honor of Christ. Sean Finnegan: It seems like Paul addresses this in first Corinthians to some degree, and 1st Corinthians 8. The question of eating food that had been ritually butchered and essentially he argues that it's fine, no big deal. Go ahead and eat the food, but then in chapter 10, he says don't participate of the table of of the Lord and the table of demons, and seems to be expressing the same idea you just articulated that to actually go to the temple festival in the city which, you know, these would be their big holidays. And and big times of feasting. And and my old professor. Paula Frederickson famously called it the ritual redistribution of red meat, which for people that subsist on grain and occasional vegetables, red means a big deal. But the Christians are not going to attend the actual worship service. But the meat sold the next day in the marketplace. Or eating at someones house a couple days late. Bitter the meat is not permanently tainted, but it is something that to participate in it in the sacred space or the unsacred space of the idle and so forth would be participating in the table of demons. So I don't know if that if that's too nuanced of a view, but it seems to be what he's doing between first. These eight versus 10. Dale Tuggy: Yeah. No, I think that's right. And Paul gives a couple of guidelines about all this to go back to Romans 14 and I I love Romans 14 because it's about food and it's about holidays, but he totally doesn't tell you which he makes it a perfectly general teaching that can be applied to. Well, things that he never envisioned, like small C Catholic style of Christmas celebrations that didn't exist in his day. So his guidelines are that you have to go by your conscience, #1, but also you have to consider the good of your neighbor. So if I was in a small church and there were some people there who were super, you know, troubled by Christmas, I wouldn't do Christmas stuff, at least in church, I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't want them to feel like they had been compromised and that they were sinning. And I'd rather miss out on some of the fun. Then the the Christmassy stuff. Then I would to, you know, cause them to stumble. You know, at the start of Romans 14, he says welcome those who are weak in faith but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions. So you don't want this to become a divisive thing. Unity is more important than being able to do your Christmassy stuff. But it is the people who are weaker in faith who are going to be troubled, probably by such things. They're holding on to some scruples that that they've been taught somewhere, but that are not really necessary scruples. There's various foreign kinds of food you buy Japanese sake or things like this. Sometimes they've done some ritual to honor the traditional deity of the kitchen or something at the factory where they made that. But again, all things are good. All foods can be enjoyed with Thanksgiving in moderation, and you can honor God by eating these things. And who cares what they what they thought about their kitchen deity. When they did this, but again, it's it's, it's conscience and love that are that are the guides I think. Conscience for what you do, but also concern and consideration for brothers and sisters who. Just are going to feel dirty if they do these things. Sean Finnegan: One of the church fathers, I I can't remember who, if it was origin or Gregory Thomas Turgis or Clement of Alexandria. I've narrowed it down to those three, but at some point I I remember reading one of them talking about the gold that Moses used for the building of the Ark. The beautiful materials he used to construct the Tabernacle and the question was where did this stuff come from? Where do these find, you know, purple fabrics and the the gold and the silver and all? You know, they talk about the rings and so forth in the second-half of Exodus. Where did it all come from? The answer is it came from Pagan Egypt. And the Israelites asked to, to borrow, quote, UN quote, borrow permanently their their neighbors gold and. Dale Tuggy: As instructed by the Prophet. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, as instructed by God through Moses. And it was sort of sanctified through the Red Sea crossing, at least, so argued the early church fathers. And then as a result, it was now able to be used for literally the holiest object ever made on the entire planet. You know, like, God didn't. Have the Israelites. Dig up their own gold and smelt it and and make sure that it's pure gold, untainted by idolatry. No, like we know for sure the Egyptians, if they were anything they were idolaters, and yet God authorized. This repurposing of these physical objects so that they could become sanctified and wholly and. And and to be used like that. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, that's right. I mean, let's not forget that God plucked Abraham out of a Pagan context. And you know, here's something else of Pagan origin. Dale Tuggy and Sean Finnegan. With their white ancestors, who were, you know, worshipping God knows what back in ancient times, druids. Yeah, probably doing human sacrifices and having idols galore. I mean, this isn't something I'm proud of. But you know what? It's just another ethnic group and. When when God makes it holy, it's holy. So we're accepted in Christ and so, yeah. God could take a piece of gold, smelted by the Egyptian. Or whoever and have it used in his temple. You don't want to underestimate God's powers of sanctification. Those who partake of of the questionable or controversial. Practices are exhorted to not make their brother or sister who's weaker in faith, stumble and you'd rather forego. The celebration then you know really bother your your church mate. But he also has an instruction for the one who abstains, which is not to pass judgment on the people who partake. He's like, hey, they're they're not your servants. They're servants of Christ and he'll judge them. And so don't worry about them. If trust that maybe they're honoring God in their own way, you do what you think you need to do. And let's not let's not fight and. Divide and and harshly judge one another about this. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I was thinking of the practice we have of giving gifts at birthdays. This is obviously not biblical in origin there. This is my Jehovah's Witness friends. Would be quick to point out there's only one one or two mentions of birthdays and it's by evil Herod. Who's celebrating his birthday? Where John the Baptist gets executed, and maybe there's one more in the Old Testament by an evil king, but it's not endorsed by Scripture. But most Christians do celebrate birthdays to some degree, at least acknowledging a birthday. There's no place in the Bible. It tells us we should do that. So I think it's a similarly a matter of conscience. If I'm going to give gifts and and celebrate the birthdays for my wife and for my siblings and for my parents and for my four children. And it just would make sense to mark the birth of Jesus. And you know, I don't think he was born on December 25th. To be honest. I have no idea. When he was born, I would say this. You don't have to celebrate your birthday on the actual day, especially if we're talking about someone born in 2000 years ago and. We don't know. When the day is. To me it's it's just sort of like an opportunity to express joy and gratitude for the birth of the one. Who brought us salvation when Jesus is born? God has the angels speak to the shepherds. There is a birth announcement. The Angels are rejoicing. They're sort of overjoyed. The the shepherds are overwhelmed and then they find the baby as they were directed and. They rejoice as well, so there is there's a lot of recognition and rejoicing on the original birth of Christ and so. I I think it. It seems fitting to me to mark the birth of Christ in some way, not necessarily on December 25th, but I think evangelistically it's helpful for us as Christians to sort of take advantage of the holiday season. And of this, like, you know, even the word Christmas, it has the word Christ in it, you know, kind of like a hook in the culture for us to. Naturally, talk about Jesus with our neighbors and coworkers in a way that we couldn't. Normally, so yeah. Dale Tuggy: Yeah. No, you're right. They're they're sitting there looking at major scenes and maybe watching a a Jesus movie that has the accounts of Matthew or Luke in the. It is an opportunity and I I like the birthday analogy. You know, our Jehovah's Witness friends are against both Christmases and birthday celebrations. But. Look, there could be bad and good ways to celebrate my birthday. I mean, on my birthday, I'm just grateful to God that I've got another year because I know that these are not guaranteed. And you know, we're not doing horrible sinful things when we eat a little cake and blow out some candles. I mean, I could imagine somebody just like, you know. Let's party hard for we may die soon, you know, and just be really terrible on their birthday like that. That would not be a good birthday celebrating tradition. But yeah, these things seem harmless in themselves and and can be done in a way that honors God. So yeah, if you think it's Pagan. Yeah. Don't. Don't celebrate your birthday, but if you're going to celebrate birthdays, yeah, why not? The birthday of the most important human being that's ever lived. The guy who changed the world, you know? Sean Finnegan: And when it comes to Christianizing Pagan dates or Pagan festivals, it's not like when the Christians did this. It's not like what they did is they took everything. Cause wasn't there, like, wife swapping. And like, you could just do whatever you wanted like a day of mischief where you could just. Or am I getting confused on on two different things here? Dale Tuggy: Ohh I don't know, I don't know enough about Pagan holidays and and nonsense too. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I think there was a lot of misbehavior. I think there was like a day where you could just, like, do whatever you wanted and there was no legal consequence. Like you could sleep with whoever you wanted. You could beat up whoever. He wanted. It was just like mayhem for a day, and it was like a pressure release valve for the society. The Christianization of that holiday did not carry that over right. That would be on God. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, although Mardi Gras gets kind of wild and sometimes sometimes it's still pretty wild. Uh, with some of these Catholic holidays, but. It it it just depends, right? And there are Catholics who use them in different ways, sometimes in the fear of God, and sometimes just in the desire to party Hardy. Sean, another way that this holiday could be useful to us as Unitarian Christians is in having conversations with our mainstream or Trinitarian Christian friends. I put out a podcast episode several years ago called have yourself an incarnation free Christmas, and I just. Sean Finnegan: It really rolls off the tongue. Dale Tuggy: It's the latest. Oh man. Oh, and I you know, the main part of it? I went through the birth accounts in Matthew and Luke could just point out that there's zero elements of incarnation there because there's not a before stage, a transition stage and a after stage like people think they see in John and Philippians too. I don't think it's really there, but. Yeah. I mean, as far as Matthew and Luke are concerned, like, this is miraculously conceived. Baby person being human, being being born. And that's what's going on. They don't have anybody flying down from heaven and entering Mary's womb. Gaining a complete human nature and things like that. So I mean, it's kind of fun just to to point this out that nobody in Scripture talks about this omniscient, omnipotent baby. Or engages in the the traditional ***** paradox mongering that occasionally the Baptist pastor or somebody online gets into. So that's another good conversation topic. What did they think they were celebrating? They were celebrating the birth of 1, destined to be the king and the Messiah. The son of Mary. Not God Incarnate or a God, man. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, seemed like a baby. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, just a baby and all the baby things, yeah. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, that's good. What about John 1? Because that that gets a lot of play this time of year. You've done a lot of work on John. One, would you hold still to the personification view? That the word is being personified, just like wisdom was personified, and proverbs 8 and then really not until verse 14 do we have a human being. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, I think Jesus really comes into it in verse 14. Yeah. And it's it's saying that he's the greatest embodiment of God's word or wisdom by which he created all things. So I don't know, I guess around Christmas, I would just point. Out that. The passage doesn't say that. Jesus is the same person as this word, and if the word is a personification, nobody is the same person as the word. The word's not really a person, it's just being talked about as if it were a person, just like there isn't anybody who is lady Wisdom. Sean Finnegan: Right. Dale Tuggy: In Proverbs 8 that she's just a personification of God's wisdom and even of the kind of wisdom that that we can have. If God blesses us with it. So that's a big conversation, of course, but. Yeah, it doesn't say that's the same person as Jesus, and interestingly, they never call him the word. Later in the book, even though they call him everything else, they refrained from calling him the word the author does. And so I think that's a giveaway that he wants you to realize that that's personification. At the very beginning of the. Sean Finnegan: The leap commonly made is that OK? The word was with God, the word was God or or however you translate that last phrase there. And then they're like, oh, and the word became flesh. And they're like, see, God became flesh, but it's not at all what it says. What it says is the word became flesh. If the word is some activity of God or attribute of God that's being personified, that becomes a human being. This is this is a metaphor. This is not talking about a spirit being squeezing itself into the body of a human in some mysterious way. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, it can't be a literal transition. And you know, in my recent discussion with some philosophers, including William Lane Craig. He was kind of like ha ha. You know, a personification can't turn into a human being. Well, of course it can. That's why it's not a literal transition. You know, in the life of this one being if God's wisdom comes down from heaven and tabernacles among us as the Torah. Like that's that's not two stages in the life history of some guy or some being it's just to say that God's eternal wisdom is expressed in the law of Moses basically. Or if God's word from heaven leaps down like a warrior, I think in one of the intertestamental books, that's a passage about when the first born of the Egyptians were slain. Yeah, but it's not. It's not a guy. So. This is not literal speech. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, very good. Well, if people want to hear more about your take on John one, I will put your presentation about that in the show notes for this episode, so that people can check that out. Dale Tuggy: I think we should also mention, Sean, the recent presentation at the UCA by doctor Dustin Smith. And he's basically giving examples of what he calls incarnation. I would call it non literal incarnation, but let's not quarrel about words. He's he's giving background in his presentation to how to understand precisely this. This text and the word became flesh and dwelled among us, and it's great he gives lots of relevant examples and I think he shows you how the the original audience would have taken it that way. So yeah, this this should be released very soon, I think on the UCA YouTube channel. Sean Finnegan: OK, very good. So I'll put links to both of those in the show notes for this episode, just while I've got you here. How how are you doing? How is the Trinity's podcast? How's the book project? You're running a four views book. Give us a little update. Dale Tuggy: Well, the Journeys Podcast has slowed down a lot. I'm more kind of at once a month schedule and you know, it's kind of in direct conflict with writing. Writing is hard. And anybody that tells you writing is not hard either. They're miraculously gifted or they're lying. Writing is just incredibly hard. And I've always been. At it. And so I'm working on a book of my unpublished essays. Which I thought I was just going to quickly fix up and publish. But you know now 10 years later, I have more to say on the topic. So I'm hoping to get this out in 2024. The four views debate book about the Trinity with William Hasker, Beau Branson and William Lane Craig is all completely written with the conclusions and everything, and it's just being edited right now. And I don't know how many months that's going to take, but I hope not too many because there's a lot of interest. In the book. And kind of seeing how that argument goes. So yeah, I've got lots of lots of heavy writing ahead of me in 2024 and hopefully some good podcasts too. I never run out of podcast ideas, it's just the time to make it happen, you know. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. And and you, you've kind of moved away from the interview approach more to the monologue style. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, I still do both. If I interview people, I like it to be of work that I think is pretty good, even if I don't, you know, agree with the conclusions. Like if I interview somebody like Doctor Timothy Paul, I I just think he's an excellent philosopher. And I always enjoy talking to him. And I think his work is very valuable relating to incarnation speculations. But you know, not everybody's work is. Like that so. I'm at least as picky as I've ever been about. Kind of. What I want to highlight, but I still do want to draw into conversation the more mainstream kinds of views. I want to get us our perspective to be heard. I want it to be on people's mental map. We're not cultists. We're people in a long standing minority report. Well, it's it's been a minority report since about the. The two hundreds, but it was first, a majority report. So it should be taken seriously, not just blown off and, you know, dismissed as a mere man Christology and things like that. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Well, very good. And you also have a debate coming up. Dale Tuggy: Yes, in March. Yeah, debating James White in Houston, TX, and the Lutheran Church. If you look hard enough, you can probably get some tickets to that if you're in. The Houston area. I'm looking forward to that. I've been working on my opening statement and kind of getting some coaching on my strategy, so I'm hoping to make that worthwhile and something that will be instructive to people. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. Well, it will certainly be entertaining. I don't know how worthwhile. It will be. Hopefully it'll be worthwhile as well, but. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, it takes two to tango, you know. Sean Finnegan: James White is a very bold and famous debater. He he will not be holding back, that's for sure. Dale Tuggy: Yeah, he's kind of a verbal bully and he he kind of has his own. Idiosyncratic take on Trinitarian tradition so. I'm going to have something to say about his favorite passages and. Is confused statement that Jesus is Yahweh. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, very good. Well, thanks for joining me today. I wish you a Merry Christmas and to your family as well. Any any final thoughts just as we say goodbye here. Dale Tuggy: Just a Merry Christmas to those who celebrate and happy December 25th to those who don't. Sean Finnegan: All right. Well, thank you. Dale Tuggy: Thanks son. Sean Finnegan: Well, that brings this interview to a close. What did you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find episode 527. Should Christians celebrate Christmas and leave your feedback there. Now this is the time of year when many Christians consider year end giving and I want to ask you. A question has. Restitutio been a meaningful part of your 2023 year. If you just popped in for this one episode, please don't feel any pressure to give. But if you're a regular listener and you can help, please consider giving either a monthly amount or a one time donation. Even if you can only do a small amount, it adds up. Also, Restitutio is a 501C3 organization, so we'll send you a report of your giving in January for tax purposes. And thanks to all of you who have given it's such a great help. To the cause. Now, if you'd like to give, you can do that through restitutio.org. It's like the word restitution with no end.org. On a different note, I've had a couple of requests to port over the audio podcast onto the rest of Tudio YouTube channel. Recently. YouTube came up with a way to make that process incredibly easy, so I've done the necessary work to get that completed and day by day the channel is loading a bunch of episodes. I guess when your show has. Over 500. Episodes YouTube needs to do it in batches. Currently there are over 300 episodes on there now, but they're still marked private. I think until the process concludes, so stay tuned for that and these YouTube videos are just a still picture with the audio from the podcast feed playing, but they may be helpful for sharing on social media. I'll let you know hopefully next week that process will be complete. And fully public. Also, I wanted to read out a couple of comments on last week's episode with Jeff Dibble on dealing with our assumptions, Peter wrote in saying. Saying hi, Sean and Jeff, I found this podcast very helpful. Great topic, some great insights and tips given asking good open questions at the right time with someone is key. Then stop there. These are skills we all need to continue to develop. Evangelism is largely about both planting and watering seeds according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The rest is up to the individual as the Holy Spirit works on their heart, their free will remaining intact. Dropping all presuppositions and genuinely reexamining established assumptions is not easy. These are part of how we make sense of and feel safe in our world. Taking off my own Trinitarian glasses and choosing to really and truly be honest about having a sola scriptura basis. For my beliefs is what got me over the line as well. Suddenly, Scripture all fits together without contradictions changing from a Trinitarian to a completely convinced monotheist for me took a period of about two years. I came out of my class. Prefacing A contentious topic with a warning you might not agree with what I'm about to share, but please hear me out. Consider what I'm saying. I'm not asking you to agree with me. I love what Sean shared in the last two minutes of his podcast. Absolutely 100% agree and take the same position myself. I am constantly exposing myself to positions I believe I probably don't agree with. As I always want to be open to correction and growth, I've handed several copies of Jeff's excellent, easy to read Christ before creeds and will continue to do so. Well, thanks so much, Peter. It's so encouraging to hear your story a little bit and to know that this really is a key to unlocking truth. What is it? Intellectual humility, being able to say I could be wrong about that. Let me read it from a different perspective. Let me expose myself to people. With whom I disagree and see what the reasons are. I'm always searching for those reasons. I'm always trying to bypass. And make myself immune to rhetoric and the emotional appeals in people's arguments, and instead drill down to what are the reasons driving this? And if your only reasons are, hey, this is a really popular view and if you don't believe this, we're not. Going to treat. You. Well, to me those are not. Those are not indicators of truth. There are incredibly more popular ideas out there. How about this one? Christianity is wrong. What? 60 plus percent of the world agrees the majority of the world agrees that Christianity is wrong, so therefore Christianity is wrong. No, of course not. We can't. We can't simply go with the majority. We can't simply say, oh, well, that idea is very popular. And I won't have any struggles in my social network if I had no, that is not the way of truth. That is not the way of discernment. If we're going to be good Bereans what we want to do is check different ideas against the scriptures to see if they're really true. We have the scriptures in our own language, and many excellent translations that are very helpful. To discern God's thoughts, as recorded in. Scripture someone named Sean. Hey, that's a good name, wrote in saying this is a good discussion. Presuppositions being challenged are ultimately what allowed me to look at the Bible differently and eventually ended up biblical Unitarian. However, there are many other presuppositions that I held strongly from fundamentalist style beliefs. Of my youth that needed challenged and they. Continued while or after coming to Unitarianism and then Sean lists out five different presuppositions that he has challenged over the years. Some interesting stuff there for you to consider. Come on over to restitutio.org and find Episode 526 assumptions and conversations and read and. And Scroll down and you can read his comment in full. There. Well, that brings this episode to an end. Hopefully next week I can run the numbers on the top ten episodes of 2023 and let you. Know who the winner. Is so hopefully I can get that information out to you next week. So it's an exciting time of year to wrap up and take a moment to consider. What has happened on the show in the past year? So stay tuned for that. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Again, if you'd like to support us, you can do that at our website restitutio org catch you next week and remember, the truth has nothing to fear.