This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 526: The Role of Assumptions in Bible Conversations with Jeff Deuble This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Sean Finnegan: Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to Restitutio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. It's the holidays and many of us are seeing family members and coworkers and neighbors. Parties. Sometimes the topic of Christianity comes up and you may be having conversations about your belief. You may find yourself defending your belief in Jesus in general, or even trying to convince Trinitarian loved ones and friends to understand who he really is. In today's episode, Jeff Dibble explains how powerful and important presuppositions are in these conversations. Additionally, he recommends the approach of asking good questions to open the door to changing people's minds. Now Jeff Dibble is a retired pastor who has served in the churches of Christ in Australia in various capacities for four decades. He's also the author of the book Christ before creeds, rediscovering the Jesus of History, and that book has a very conversational and friendly approach, which in my opinion, makes it a more effective tool. That winning people over and I should also mention this book is currently on sale on Amazon. On it makes an ideal present to give people to introduce them to the Jesus of the Bible. Here now is episode 526. The role of assumptions in Bible conversations with Pastor Jeff Dibble. Welcome to restitutio, Jeff Tibble. So glad to. Have you today? Jeff Deuble: Thanks, Sean. It's a real pleasure and privilege to be with. You it's. Sean Finnegan: To begin with, you have been on this show a couple of times and I think it would be great if we could. Have an update. What's? Happening in your world since we last spoke. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. OK. Well, what's happened is I was a pastor of a local church down at Wolf. Long one of the few churches of Christ that would be happy to have me given my unorthodoxy last year, I handed that over to a another pastor who lived locally because it was about an hour and a half commute for me to the church and made a lot more sense for him to be there. So I've passed that on and also up until several months ago I was chaplain in a full time capacity with the Australian Defence Force. I was a a chaplain with a regiment there. I've passed that over now as well. Well, I've. I've retired from that. In fact, the guy that I passed it over to just after I passed it over, it was a helicopter regiment and one of the helicopters went down and killed four guys that I knew personally. And so this brand new Padre will pass through into the. And all of a sudden had so much on his on his hands to do with all of the memorial services and support to the regiment and the families of those who died. And so anyway. So yeah. So I've retired from that. And then also I've basically now, yeah, fully retired. I'm helping Steve, my son with his church. Bit of a change of role. He was supporting me as a senior pastor for many years and now I'm supporting him as a as a senior pastor so. So that's happening. Yeah. I'm just a lot more time for for family and all that. So. Sean Finnegan: OK. Do you intend to stay retired for long or are you looking for other things to do? It's. Jeff Deuble: An interesting season. I've got all these list of projects to get onto around the house, but so many things have kind of interrupted that that I'm I'm fairly busy on other things that come up and and so far I. I'm quite content to be as I am and just see what. Sean Finnegan: OK, very good. Jeff Deuble: God does. Sean Finnegan: Very good. So let's talk about Christ before. Reads your book. What's been the feedback? What have you heard? Jeff Deuble: Yeah. Well, look, I've been a bit overwhelmed, actually, Sean, with how much positive feedback I've received for actually all over the world, you know, from Britain, from from India, from New Zealand, America, Australia. I've been more than amazed with just the amount of positive feedback. The people who have come to a different position after reading my book than they were before, so you know, I wasn't sure mine was meant to be a bit of an introductory text, but some people having read it have become convinced that, yeah, absolutely. Trinitarianism really doesn't hold any support for them anymore. One lady, actually, she was very positive and some members of her home or her household, her family had become convinced. Having read the book. So she was very supportive and she actually offered to pay for to sponsor a translation of the book into another language. And that's now happened. As you know, it's just come out. In a Spanish translation, and that's just recently become available. Sean Finnegan: Well, there you have it. And you don't speak any. Spanish, do you? Jeff Deuble: Not a word. Hardly. So also just on that, we also have an audio book version coming out with what I've recorded my section and yeah, Mark Kane is about to record the introduction and the appendix. So hopefully that'll be out by Christmas as well. Speaker Ah yes. Sean Finnegan: Excellent. That's so great. I love audio books. I'm a huge fan. I read at least two a month, 2 audiobooks a month. So anyhow, this book is touching a lot of lives and I'm very excited to see what the Spanish version does and who who it touches. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. And I feel a bit like the boy and his five loaves and two fishes, you know, sort of giving it to Jesus. I feel like what I had was so small and inadequate. And then others have. Developed that, enriched it and it's been distributed and God has blessed it and it's it's achieving far more than I could have ever you. Know. Expected. Yeah. Yeah. Sean Finnegan: We just do a cause us to do. And let him. Figure out the rest. Absolutely. So in April of this year, Dustin Smith and Will Barlow debated Samuel Nissan and Kyle Essery on the question is Jesus, Yahweh Kyle Essery, who was arguing that Jesus is Yahweh? Said something in this debate that really. Grabbed your attention. What did he say? Could you talk a little bit about this? Jeff Deuble: Yes, let me just. Bring that up so I can quote him, actually wrote it down. So this is what it says, he said. I don't believe that it's possible and what he means there is that it's possible to set aside one's beliefs in order to interpret the scripture. It's not something we can or should do. I would argue that we bring our presuppositions to the text. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, please do. Jeff Deuble: And what we're looking at is not so much how we can set those presuppositions aside, but whether or not our presuppositions and the view of the text we have are consistent. Sean Finnegan: So what about that bothered you? Jeff Deuble: Well, it's interesting because at one level I don't really have a problem with what he's saying here. I mean, I agree, we all have presuppositions that we bring to the text, and as we exaggerate it, and yes, that does involve this interplay between our assumptions and what the text says. And hopefully we're testing out both our presuppositions. And the text and trying to bring them into alignment and consistency. But maybe I was reading into the statement or maybe I was just kind of reading some of the implications of what he was saying. First of all, I think there's an implication that kind of all presuppositions or assumptions are are kind of equally valid, valid. You know you bring yours, I bring mine. So what? You know, we've each got our own assumptions. Surely not all assumptions are valid. Secondly, there's kind of this belief that people are willing and able to let go of. Their presuppositions, or sort of amend them fairly easily, and in my own personal experience and in my reading of history, I don't believe that's the case. I think presuppositions are usually very firmly held and are very kind of extremely resistant. To examination and change. And and an example that easily comes to mind is, you know the debate between evolution versus intelligent design. Now here you've got a community on both sides of very intelligent people who have access to the same facts, the same evidence, the same scientific data. And yet, based on their presuppositions based on their assumptions, interpreting that data very differently and coming to very different conclusions. The importance of our assumptions cannot be overlooked or downplayed, and I guess that got me thinking around the whole, you know, importance of our assumptions and how that plays out in our theological debates. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, certainly is the case that our assumptions very much shape how we interpret data. And I wonder if you could talk about how our assumptions affect how we arrive at doctrinal truth a little bit, because to be honest, that statement he made. Even the first time I heard. It when I was watching it and I don't remember if I watched it live or I watched. It later but. It caused me to bristle as well I. Was like what? We can't. We can't lay aside our assumptions. It's like well, surely we can to some degree or at least be self aware, right? What do you think about how it affects? Doctrinal truth. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. Look, I think what you need to understand is that our beliefs based on certain facts and evidence. But also on assumptions. And so it's our assumptions and our evidence that gives rise to our beliefs. And of course, there's a lot of overlap and interplay between our assumptions and the facts or the evidence. Now the facts and the evidence, they're a bit more objective. They're a bit more simple. They have to do with, you know, what's objective. And and logic and reasoning. And it's kind of the domain of theologians and scientists and philosophers. They're very used to dealing in that sort of dimension. But the other aspect, which is our assumptions, they're much more complex. They're much more sinister. They feed into not just our, our intellect, our mind, but also into our emotions, into our will, into our experiences, a whole lot of other things. So you've got these two dimensions that are feeding our beliefs. Of the two, I believe our assumptions they're more formative. They're more influential and therefore I believe ultimately more significant than even the facts or the data. Sean Finnegan: I think if you really want to debunk something. Any evidence that's contrary to that you have. What is it called? Selection bias. Kind of. Select out those things that support you and then minimize those that go against what you're looking for. So I think the angle at which you approach something is. You know. I think you're right. It's incredibly influential. How can you test the validity of your assumptions? How can you know if your? Assumptions are any good. Jeff Deuble: To affirm what you're saying there, you know, just as an example, think of like two men they're marooned on a on a desert island. You know, they wake up in the morning and and one, actually, you know, has the assumption that this is a deserted island. There's no one else living. There the other has the assumption that there must be other people, so they walk down the beach and they see some stones or shells that are arranged in a geometrical shape. It might be a heart or an arrow or something, and so they both look at that simple design, I guess of rocks or. Or shells, because one assumes that there's no one else on the island, he just assumes that that. Just, you know, a freak of how the waves are washed in those rocks. The other one who who has the assumption that there are other people says no, someone has actually put those there. You know. So once again it's a bit like the the evolutions, you know, depending on their assumptions is how they will perceive. You know what they're looking at and what they tend to overlook that will affect their interpretation. So how it frames their perceptions and the the questions they ask or don't ask and also, therefore, you know, their explanation and the deductions and conclusions that they come to. So yeah, absolutely. It's very key. So yeah, sorry to get back to your question. How can we test the validity of our assumptions? As I said, there's this interplay between. Our assumptions and and evidence or facts in that interplay, I think you're looking for, first of all internal congruency. And secondly, external consistency. So first of all, our assumptions have to make sense. They should be logical, they should be reasonable, they should. Makes sense. You know, sort of within themselves. And then secondly, they should be consistent with what the evidence or the facts are. So if there's any dissonance in that, if there's any sense in which our assumptions don't really make sense, or they don't really fit the facts, then I think that would be good reason to reassess their validity. And but the only thing, of course, as I said, is it's it's a very complex situation. Feeding into our assumptions, you've got all this other stuff happening. You know, there's there's a need to belong, a need that we want to share the same world view as the as the people in our community and and and and so there's that need to belong. There's a need to be. Safe so that if if changing our assumptions and our worldview is going to destabilize and cause anxiety, then that's gonna be an issue. You know, we've got all our ego needs, you know, the, the, the need to be right, the need to be seen as as OK, there's the desire to be comfortable. I mean there's all these other things. Feeding into almost at a deeper level, so you at a intellectual level you you can test the validity of your assumptions, but you need to recognise that there's all these other underlying things that are also feeding into the assumptions as well. Sean Finnegan: I I think a lot of times we don't like to add. That all that other stuff we just like to claim that reason alone convinces us of what we believe, and it's just as simple as that. But it never is. I think you're right. It never is. There are always all kinds of reasons we don't even think. About that are behind. The scenes or beneath the surface. This, well, let's come back to debating the Trinity, because this is something that you've done and something that is continuing to go on. In fact, in Texas, there was a debate at the the Evangelical Theological Society with Dale Tuggy and William Lane Craig and a couple of others. And I'm just thinking of the young people in that room. And you know all ages. But, you know, especially the young people that are just like, getting first exposure to a non Trinitarian scholar, PhD from Brown University, which is very prestigious in the states here, Ivy League. They're sitting there and they're listening and they're like, you know, I know for sure this guy's wrong. I just have to find out why. And that's exactly. That's exactly what we're talking about, right? So. Let's let's come back. To the subject of the Trinity, what problems do you see with the validity of presupposing the Trinity when you come to Scripture? Jeff Deuble: Yeah, OK. Sure. A good place to start is to ask, what is the assumption of the New Testament writers? It's very obvious to me, anyway, that the New Testament writers shared. What was 1st century? Judaism's understanding of who God is and who the Messiah was? That was their heritage. That's what they grew up with. That's what they would have understood. And that's the the position they would have been writing from unless they very clearly indicate or tell us otherwise. So I. Think you know? The most reasonable assumption as we approach the New Testament is not to have a Trinitarian paradigm, but rather to have a 1st century judaistic assumption in terms of you know, what's underlying those writings. And then as you read through the New Testament, you you've got the Gospels, for example, the accounts of the virgin birth. There's no indication as you read those accounts, that they're understanding that Jesus has a pre existence to his physical birth in terms of a physical pre existence. And then the miracles, you know. And Jesus is performing these miracles. All the people around. They're not saying, you know, hey, this must be God. They're saying it. They're praising God that he's given this authority to a man and that this is a great prophet who's arisen so that they're not expressing. Any assumption other than that and even as Jesus rides in on the donkey, as you know, as he comes into Jerusalem, you know, the cry goes up, you know, Hosanna to the son of David, bless it is he who comes in the name of the Lord. They're welcoming as their king, as their Messiah, not as God. And then you've got the trials. And I used to read the trials thinking that, you know, Jesus was on trial for claiming to be God. But actually, as you read those accounts. He's on trial for his his claim to be the Messiah, and it was his claim to be the Messiah that was seen as blasphemous and unacceptable. And then as you go into the book of acts, you know you've got Peter saying that Jesus was a man accredited by God to you by miracles. You've got Paul saying. I'm not saying anything beyond. What has been declared to you in in our traditions and in the Scripture, so there's no indication as you read through the New Testament that there's been any departure from the assumptions that they had of 1st century Judaism. I just don't see that anywhere. So that's one thing. I don't know whether you want to make any. Comment before I kick. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Yeah. Let me if you don't mind. What I hear you talking about is. Getting at the assumptions of the people who encounter Jesus historically in the 1st century. Which is, I think, a really helpful approach. So what was their framework? What was their approach? Did they already believe in the Trinity or version of the Trinity or an early? Sort of like Proto Trinitarian view. Do we have any evidence of Jewish people in Galilee or Judea who held to any of those ideas we. Don't I think it makes sense to sort of like see through their eyes. Jeff Deuble: Yes, yes. Sean Finnegan: And that's, that's what I hear you like encouraging us to do to adjust our assumptions and presuppositions to their world. And see Jesus through that. OK, we've got somebody doing miracles. What does that mean? Well, from a Jewish 1st century perspective, it means that God had visited his people. That a prophet has arisen among us, that the Lord God is at work within him. Reconciling the world unto himself or performing these deeds through him. When we adjust. Our eyes to see the way that they see, that's the kind of Jesus that becomes clear. It's it's not this philosophical Jesus who is talking about Russia. You know, just such a funny word. He's not talking about his being. And nobody not. Anybody ever talks about this word person? You know, where's that in the Bible? So there's no person in being. Not even Paul, who's very smart, very educated. He doesn't get into this. He doesn't say. Well, that's his person, but not his. We don't. We just don't have that kind of language. It seems much more like you said, politically driven this idea of a Messiah is a political figure and a religious figure. Let me ask you. This what happens when we turn the page. From the last. Part of the New Testament and we look at. The first part of church history. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, as I you know, as you just said, it's really reading the scriptures in historical context. Yeah. So not assuming that my perspective is the same as those that that were speaking or or writing, you know, the events. But I I need to get into their world. You to understand where they're coming from, not presuppose upon that my own assumption. So in terms of church history, you know, as you know it, it's not until you get into the 4th century and even later in the 4th century. That you get. This developed Trinitarian understanding of Jesus. So to try to then take that understanding and the presuppositions around that, and bring that back into the New Testament. Is certainly disingenuous. If not, you know, sort of very, very difficult to be able to sustain. Logically a lot of those so-called controversial passages. I'm talking about John's prologue. Thomas's statement, Philippians 2 those kind of statements. If you have a theological paradigm which is Trinitarian, sure you can take those and make them fit your assumptions and paradigm. But they don't have to. There's other interpretations which. You know, to me, make as much sense equally as valid if you don't share those assumptions that. Have plus of course many other passages which I think quite clearly work against Trinitarian or some. Sean Finnegan: Yes. Yeah. When it comes to church history, I've been somewhat fortunate in regards to coming across it. Maybe I was 24 years old when I first came across church history in, in the, in the classroom, and learned about it. And I was just like. What? What is all this stuff? Who are all these people? Who? Why? You know, I've been going to church. My literally my entire life. And I've never heard the name Ignatius or Tertullian, or Novatian or origin. Never heard any. Who are these people? And I don't think I'm weird in that sense. I think most of us in the Protestant world. Don't study church history. We don't really have a reason to. And so when this subject comes up, we think to ourselves well the experts. Surely they have this worked out. Surely the experts have lots of quotations from the 2nd century and the 3rd century. It's not just in the 4th century. People are just taking others word for it, but when you really start to look at it, what you find is development. You don't find a fully blown Trinity. What? What other problems are there with bringing our presupposition of the Trinity to scripture? Jeff Deuble: You know, although I say there's this interplay between the evidence, you know, the scriptural texts, what they actually say and our assumptions or presuppositions, it's our assumptions and presuppositions that tend to win out most of the. Mine because they are much more subversive subconscious. They're working on us in ways that we may or may not appreciate and understand. And there's a whole lot of other things that are supporting our assumptions that then cause us not to be able to perceive the text. In a A truly objective or in a way that truly fits. Their historical context, I know. For me personally, it took me a long time, maybe a decade or so, to change from a Trinitarian to a fully convinced non Trinitarian position like look back on that and I think why did it take me so long, you know? I mean, because I was reading books at different times and the arguments were coming up were, you know, I I would say, yes. Well, that could be so. But then what about this? And OK, maybe. But then what about that? And and, you know, it's going backwards and forwards and and and, you know, the thing that actually. He got me over the line was when I actually thought, why don't I? Actually, I've always read the New Testament with my Trinitarian assumptions and framework operating. Why don't I just try reading it from a non Trinitarian perspective and? As I started reading it from that perspective, it was only when I was willing to put my assumptions aside, then it began to make sense. Then it began to gel far more clearly and consistently. Me than what it ever did before and I said yeah, this is a far better way to read the scriptures. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So that's what we want to have happen for others. We want to challenge others to have the Jeff Tibble experience to take their Trinitarian glasses off and put on 1st century Jewish glasses, you know, which is those are those are all the people in the New Testament with maybe one exception of of Luke, but. Even Luke, if he's a gentile, who knows. But you know, it seems like there's a lot of Jewish stuff going on in his gospel, too. So, you know, I think you put those glasses on and and you read it from that perspective. But people won't do. They won't do it because they're afraid. What are they afraid of? What? What is? What is holding people back? What do you think? Jeff Deuble: There's all sorts of things that could be operating, as I say, underneath in the background. Now look for some people and for me it was all I was ever taught. You know, I was never given any other option to see it any other way. So I was just brought up, you know, indoctrinated in a Trinitarian paradigm and you just kind of you never. Question it. Unless you're given information or presented with another side of the argue. Moment whereby you can begin to question. So I think that's for some people. That's just the case. It was for me. Sean Finnegan: Well, I would add to that something else, which is the flip side and that is that I'm, I'm becoming increasingly aware of. People from different, you know, Catholic Baptist Church of England, people from different backgrounds who attend churches that are supposed to be Trinitarian, and they just never believe in it at. So there's. So there's actually a lot of people on that side too. I mean, you're you're right, there's there's a lot of folks that just get indoctrinated with the Trinity idea and then they never even question it. They're just like, that's where they're coming from. They don't know that it's controversial or that it's a an idea that developed later. But there's also all these other people that are being taught to Trinity. But for whatever reason, they're just not getting it, and and so their their closet Unitarians. But they they would never use EU word. You know, they don't know that they're any different than anyone else. So it's really a a mix. Jeff Deuble: That is so true. I mean, I've been amazed now that I've come out of the closet, so to speak, now that I've come out and said, look, I don't believe that, you know, I'm amazed how many people I assumed were Trinitarians saying to me, you know what? It's never made any sense to me either. Or look, I've got real problems with it. I'm amazed at how many people I. Assumed were Trinitarians because they're just attending Trinitarian churches. We've got. We've really struggled with it. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. What are some other problems with bringing these presuppositions to scripture? Jeff Deuble: In terms of the the assumptions or presuppositions people have, I think a lot of, as I said, some people have never heard anything different. Other people accept it simply because of their credibility structure. There are people that they trust now. It might be their pastor in their local church. It might be theologians, it might be their church heritage, it might be. Their family, but they just take the authority. That and the trust they have in those people and they believe it based on that. Sean Finnegan: The Church of. Christ movement and the Restorationist movements have done so well on this because. That's really the pushback, isn't it? The pushback is don't believe it because I said it. Believe it, because the Bible teaches it, you know, let's get back to the Bible and see what it says. Sadly, most denominations you know, maybe they would pay lip service to that, but it's just not done in any kind of practical way. People, at least I I can't really comment on Australia or other countries. But like in New York and and the and the people I know in this country, they're not reading their Bibles. If you're lucky. They're reading some devotional where there's little bite sized chunks of. Scripture that are. Adorned with all this. Flowery language of somebody who is sort of like interpreting it for you. People are not unleashing scripture on their beliefs and letting it have its way with them. You know, they're hearing sermons that are very entertaining, very practical, very like self, healthy, but they're not ever getting exposed to say Deuteronomy 6/4. Or or John 17 three or these big techs that will really challenge us. The Clarion call of back to the Bible is really what is needed here. When it comes down to the authority of your pastor or the authority of Scripture, who wins? That's really the question. People have to ask. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. No, that's true. And look, I I think some people just put this doctrine in a bit of a basket that it's a bit like the cults, Jehovah witnesses or other religion, Islam, whatever. So they've just kind of consigned it to heresy. They think that if you don't believe that Jesus is God, then therefore you can't be. A legitimate Christian, you know, so they have that sort of assumption and and and maybe just some people think that if you don't think he's God, then somehow you're diminishing him and taking away from him in some way. Yeah, there's a whole lot of anxiety and also cost. Personally and otherwise, it's involved in actually, you know, taking on a position that's not mainstream. So look for all of those and many other reasons. People assume things and have these presuppositions that back up their Trinitarian belief that, as you say, if it if it was actually put to the test. Would be found to be wanting. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, one of the other ones that I've heard too, and you, you probably heard this is a fear that if Jesus isn't God in a trinitarian sense, then how how am I saved? How are my sins paid for? I'm sure you've probably come across that one too. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. And once again this gets OK how do you change people's presuppositions or assumptions? How do you, how do you address that? My comment would be that to try to argue them out of it often is counterproductive. It just gets met with resistance, not necessarily depending on what's feeding those assumptions. But yeah, a far better way to go is to ask questions. You know, for example, that one you know, someone might say, well, Jesus has to be God. To die for my sin. And you say, well, that's interesting. You know, where do you actually read that? In the Bible? Where does the Bible actually teach that? And then what about Romans? Five or first Corinthians 15? You know where it says that he had to be a man to, you know, so he just asked those kind of questions and hopefully get them to think if you come front. On with that's stupid, you know, blah, blah blah. You're very combative. It just because it's so anxiety producing. It just puts people, people, the barriers up and and and you know so yeah, it's just how you address those. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, very good. Well, let's talk about sociology for a minute. And the community aspect. Could you tell us a little bit about how you suffered, you know, some people, maybe this is their first time listening to an interview with you, maybe they haven't listened to a previous ones that I've done with you. Could you share a little bit about your own experience and what it costs you to to question this? Jeff Deuble: There certainly was a cost. I was pastor of a local church that was going very well. It was growing. It was one of the more successful in our network of, you know, or denomination of churches in our state. In Australia, churches don't tend to get it too big, but we're, you know, round about 300. We had bought some property for several million with several million from the sale of our previous property that we were going to just about build a whole new church in a in a brilliant location. You know it was all going really well then when it became conscious. To a few that I had a different understanding and this sort of became. Public, then, as a result of that, yeah, I I did step down from my ministry for a number of reasons. So I did lose my ministry. I lost the vision, I lost the community of people, cause I was told I wasn't allowed to come back. I was heading up the ministers fraternal, the local ministers. They kicked me out. Yeah, and and lost some some good close friends. You know. So there was there. Was all of that. I always held my ministry lightly and I remember waking up after the, you know, the day I resigned the next day and I just thought, you know what my circumstances have changed. But the fundamentals are the same. You know, I'm still a child of God. I'm still, you know, got a wonderful family. I've still, you know, so. And I I remember telling that to a Warrant Officer in my regiment because he he was a bit aware of the journey. He he was a an atheist and unbeliever and a pretty crusty guy, but he loved to. Talk to me about what was happening and when I said that to him, he said. You know what? I wish I had that. And to cut a Long story short, he's now attending a church and become a believer. So is his family. So I don't really see it as a big, big loss. I I think, yeah, yeah. Circumstances have changed. And. And I did lose things short term, but many other things have, you know, happened the book and other things since. And yeah, God's good. He's no man's. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Yeah. So in light of all the connections and sociological issues that you've suffered, would you say it's been worth it to you to suffer so much socially for your beliefs? Jeff Deuble: Yeah, I even would hesitate to use the word. Suffer. Yeah. There's been a cost. But look, there's been incredible benefits, too. I think there's been just the benefit for me spiritually. You know, just to have a, a clearer understanding and a clearer conscience. And as I read the scriptures, there's that sense there's also. A sense of God opening up new doors. So yeah, look, it's not. Sean Finnegan: Do you feel like you can relate to Jesus more now? Jeff Deuble: I can, yes. For a number of reasons, and and and certainly I see him more as a man who who was experiencing temptations and the struggles and the challenges of his life as a man. As you know, I I never really fully appreciated that as a Trinitarian was always. Oh, yeah, OK. But he was gone, you know, so. He's sort of at a different plane than we are, but even for him to have. You know, if if faith is is the evidence of things not seen? How could Jesus? Really have genuine faith because he if he had pre existed he'd already seen so he couldn't have faith as we're called to have faith. I mean just in so many ways. I can relate to Jesus. Yeah. And and and appreciate. His humanity and how that impacts my Christian walk and wonderfully. Sean Finnegan: All right, so it's worth it. Jeff Deuble: Absolutely. Another thing I didn't mention. Which I probably should have, is that because of what happened at my church? It's sent some eruptions through the other churches of Christ in in my state to the point where they sought to bring in a creed or a statement of faith. They called it that churches had to sign off on. In order to be acceptable and part, it was a very Trinitarian creed and I think. Really. And many people saw it this way, was a reaction against what happened to me. Yeah, luckily that got defeated because that was so against churches of Christ and our whole ethos and history. Now the guy that sought to bring that in, who was heading up churches of Christ in NSW is no longer there. And someone else has come in to take his role and he has focused very much on getting back to who churches of Christ were originally. Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So what are some tips you would give to help people convince those in their in their lives about this? Jeff Deuble: Well, I guess the first thing is bit basically to state the obvious, just be aware of assumptions. For example, the local Roman Catholic priests at the time we were having discussions around it and after a while I realized, you know what? He actually believes that. The church brought into existence the Bible, the cannon and that truth and doctrine is understood collectively, not individually, and so I had no right to question. What the Roman Catholic Church believed, and I just realised, you know, our assumptions and presuppositions in terms of what, what has authority, they're so far apart that this discussion is not not gonna go. Anywhere. So yeah, you just have to be aware of people's assumptions. And then I think the point I've already made, don't argue or try to argue people. I don't know that I've ever won an argument. In the sense that I don't know if you have either, Sean, but because often when you have an argument, even if you convince people against their will, what's that saying? If you convince yes, that's it. Yes, yes. Or you win the argument, but you'll lose the relationship or whatever. There's often this win lose thing. So. Sean Finnegan: They're of the same opinion still. Jeff Deuble: I think we overrate argue. As a way to convince or influence people. Be kind. Actually, our English word kind has the root in the word kin or family, so it's treating people as though they are family. And in my the 7th chapter of my book, I'm trying to argue rather than this, US versus them mentality. To see that, hey, look, we actually belong together in Christ, that we believe the essentials that he is, you know, the Messiah, the son of God. And through him we have access to the father and and salvation through faith. And to to just realise that, OK, we may differ on some of these other theologies, but just to try to come from a a not a non combative non defensive sort of situation to entreat be kind I guess and then the last point, I guess I'd make is just that thing of ask questions. And I think a couple of questions. That would be good to ask someone is. Share with me your journey. What was it in your spiritual journey or your Christian walk? You know, how did you get to this place of believing that Jesus was fully God? What was it that influenced you? And a lot of people will say ohh. Well, you know, it's just what I've always been told, you know, so understand what? What were the influences and what brought them to that place? Because you can then talk into that and start to question that. But then you also. You have this second question. Well, why is it so important that Jesus has to be fully God? Why is that so important to you? And that's where they might come up with. Well, you know, he had to be God to die for my sins or whatever. So I'd be asking questions, finding out what's behind their assumptions, and then talking that through hopefully in a. In a fairly amiable way. Sean Finnegan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Good question is better than a good answer when it comes to trying to convince somebody for sure. Something I've seen too is and this more pertains to preaching. We like to preach our core beliefs every year in our church, you know, because we always have new people coming. And just because you preach it once doesn't mean that somebody remembers it or agree with it last year. Right. So we always make an effort to preach. On several of our core beliefs, not not everything, but like most of them every year. And so we're we're kind of in the midst of that right now at my church and we're in a series called we believe and we're just going through our statement of faith and just explaining it. And you know, I know that that there are people. In the audience, when I go to preach that are going to find this. Maybe not offensive, but uncomfortable. So what I do is I preface it and I'll say something like look, I recognize that some of you might not believe the way that I'm about to explain this. Take some time. Think it through. You know, I think it's important. So that's why I'm teaching it, but I'm not asking you to agree with me now. Now I'm just asking you to consider this. And it just. Kind of releases the pressure so that people have a way out in the moment, you know? And and I think you could do that in a conversation too. You could say, look, you know, if you could just relieve the pressure to not win in this conversation, nobody needs to win. Let's just exchange some thoughts on this topic. And you know, if you're interested, we could talk. Again later. So the context of our discussion has been around theological debates. What are, what are some other areas where this same wisdom applies about? Assumptions and presuppositions. Jeff Deuble: Yeah. Well, I think it's it's just generally applicable to conversations of all kinds. One area that comes to mind is is evangelism and and I think what you've just said applies very much there as well that when you're seeking to bring someone a different understanding. To where they are. You know it it it's good to relieve the anxiety to come on strongly only tends to put them in a defensive mode. I just see it more like planting seeds and not trying to be the Holy Spirit that has to bring them over the line, but just, you know, allow the Holy Spirit to to work in them and to be emotionally intelligent, to read from their responses, their body language, whether they're open to hear more or whether they. Are not ready to receive. That's really important. We don't want to in a sense, cast our pearls before swine. We want to be, you know, talking with people who are receptive to here. So understanding all of that, understanding what might be fee. Being their position and and one of those things is, you know, is change. If we're asking people to to consider making a significant change, so that's not gonna necessarily happen in one conversation and one event. It's often a part of a process and to realize. That you know. It it's part of that. So yeah, I think evangelism is is 1 area. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, sometimes we happen to be the person who. Is in the right spot at the right time and gets to share. The gospel, but. That is usually almost always, I think, because there have been a series of events prior that God has used to get this person to be receptive. When you talk to them and you just don't really know where you're at with somebody, what their willingness is until you ask them about it. So yeah. Two suppositions, man, this is such an important topic. We'd have to be crazy to think that you and I don't also have our presuppositions that we need to evaluate. And you know, that's something that I I do regularly. You know I like. To expose myself to people that think differently to other preachers from other groups and theological books, from different perspectives. And it's easy to just silo myself in an echo Chamber of people who already agree with me, and it's very comfortable and cozy and warm. There lots of high fiving you know. But like, I don't think we can really. Allow ourselves to do that. That long term, at least, not those of us who are in leadership. You know, we we really do have to continually be Bereans Act 1711 and testing what we hear against Scripture to see if it's true. I I expect to continue to grow. You know, I don't know if you. Think you're done, but. I I want to continue to grow. Jeff Deuble: Absolutely, yeah. Sean Finnegan: And and learn whatever else I might be wrong about. Thanks so much for talking with me today, Jeff. This has been great. What's what's next for you? Do you have any projects outlined? Jeff Deuble: Look, I, as I said in this season, it's been interesting. It's been a different season for me and I've had to adjust. A little bit. But I am constantly surprised. I just kind of give myself and each day to God and it's amazing, you know what he's bringing you across my path and even like this podcast, I would have not expected. A little while ago and here we are, and that kind of keeps happening. So yeah, yeah. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, just walking by the spirit. I love it. Well, thanks so much for talking with me today. Jeff Deuble: Always a pleasure, Sean. Sean Finnegan: Well, that brings this interview to an end. What did you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find Episode 526 the role of assumptions in Bible conversations and leave your feedback there. Once again, you can get Jeff Dibbles Christ before Creed's book on Amazon. It's on sale right now and makes a perfect gift for family and friends. Additionally, the Spanish version Christos Anti Los Creados is available now. I don't know how my Spanish accent was the. There don't really speak Spanish, but for the Spanish brothers and sisters all around the world, I certainly recommend this book and hope that it can make an impact for you as. Well, well, that's. It for today. Thanks for tuning in. If you'd like to support.us.youcancontribute@restitutio.org, I'll catch you next week. And remember, the truth has nothing to fear.