This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 524 Postponed Kingdom with Troy Salinger

This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode.


Sean Finnegan: 
Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to Restitutio, a podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. Do the gospels give you the impression that the Kingdom of. God is about to arrive. My guest today is Troy Salinger, who wrote an interesting article called the postponement of the Kingdom of response to Pretorius and anti missionary rap. Us his idea is that the Kingdom of God is a political restoration of the Kingdom of Israel to one of David's descendants, and that this Kingdom could have come during the time of Christ. However, because the Jewish people, especially the leaders, rejected Jesus as their Messiah. God postponed the coming of the. Kingdom until a later time. Here now is Episode 524 Kingdom postponed with Troy Salinger. Welcome Troy Salinger to restitutio. So glad to talk with you today.

Troy Salinger: 
Good to be here. I just want to. Tell you the real honor for. Me to be on the podcast. I've been listening to it for about 7 years now. Well, when I first became a Unitarian, I came out of Trinitarianism. I was a trinitarian for 35 years. And about seven years ago came to the Unitarian, your book and Unitarian belief, your podcast and Dale Cubbies. And I found some, I think it was. Through you you had a website. Had a bunch of audio files on it from. All kind of. A lot from Buzzard. And other biblically Unitarian teachers.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, christianmonotheism.com.

Troy Salinger: 
And I. Just listened. Yeah, yeah. That. That's it. Yeah. And I. Mean I just consumed all of that. I listened to. Many of those things, more than twice and I listened. To all of your back log of. Your your podcast and Dale studies and it's really helpless.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, I did have. Another podcast for that too called Truth Matters.

Troy Salinger: 
OK. Yeah, that's.

Sean Finnegan: 
Had you heard that one?

Troy Salinger: 
That's the one at first, yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: 
Ohh OK yeah, that was a that was a podcast I had that. That linked up with a that was broadcasted on a radio station locally and I think I had uh, 20 or 30 episodes. Pretty much as. Soon as I questioned the Trinity, they they gave me the axe and yeah, that was the precursor to restitutio. So I don't know if that's something you would come across or not. No, no, that's typically.

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. But, you know, you your show was very helpful to me in that first first year. You know that the I can't, you know, having no other Bible communitarian fellowship. I didn't know anybody else who was in this. Believe it was very helpful. Yours and Dale, Toby and in helping ground me. In the in this belief, you know so. It's a. It's an honor for me. To be on the podcast.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, thank you. Thank you. If you don't mind me. Asking what what got you to start questioning. The identity of Christ after did you say 35 years of being Trinitarian?

Troy Salinger: 
Yes, 35 years, yes.

Sean Finnegan: 
So what? What in the world? Would get you to question that or doubt it.

Troy Salinger: 
The Bible, I mean, look, I I had never thought the. Question and it wasn't in. My mind, you know, like. Some people start doubting it, and then they go. Searching online or whatever and. They tried out things and you know they can't get mine or whatever, but it it wasn't like that. I had no thought. About questioning it. I was doing a study of the true Gospels, kind of like a chronological study through the Gospels. We're trying to relate everything back to the Hebrew scriptures. You know, early on in the gospels, you're confronted with the title son of God. So I went back to the Hebrew scriptures to see from a Hebraic perspective, what what does that title mean? I mean I always thought I knew what it. Meant right, that. That that's refers to the divinity of of Christ. But when I went. Yeah, but when I did a study and and went.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah. And a lot of people question.

Troy Salinger: 
Back to the. Your scriptures I was very shocked and surprised with with with. What I found. I'm sure I've read these scriptures before, but it just never clicked in my mind. But basically, you know, I discovered that son of God was the title for the. With the video king. And then carrying that over into like Luke 1 where the Angel tells Mary. You know she's going to have a son and he's going to be the son. Of the living God. And God is going to give. Him, the son of the soul that. Dave and. He who of the House of Jacob. Forever it just. Blew my mind, you know. And so at that. Point I I. Knew I couldn't believe anymore in in this eternally. Begotten son of God. That that's not what the scripture. I realized that that was just. Something that had developed. From early church fathers. But you know, I was still, I still wasn't questioning the Trinity or anything. I still didn't think of Jesus as simply a human. But I knew that. Son of God didn't mean. Didn't have to do with his divinity. It had to. Do with his kingship and I I was kind. Of confused for a couple of weeks. About who? How to think about Jesus, you know? And I remember just asking all that is God, you gotta show me. Yeah, I I don't know. I don't even know how to think about your son. Anything. You know after, you know, really praying. One day I was looking on line. I was trying to find something about Colossians, one trying to find somebody who had the same perspective as I didn't even know about people who Unitarianism.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, you didn't even know the terminology. Yeah, yeah.

Troy Salinger: 
Never even heard. Of it right. And I came across Boston's website and he and I think it was Dan. Hill were having a discussion with. Collagen one and they were talking about that Jesus was a a man, simply a man and I, you know, that had never came into my thought that he was just a man. I was trying to figure out how to. Think about him. But he never. I never thought of. That and when they. Said that, it's just like a light went. I I knew it was. Going to be different from then on. And it has. I just never looked back since then. From that moment, you know, and it was very it's a very quick conversion. You know, I know like. Dale thought you had mentioned. Now, hey, take a couple of years and and look into it and you know, search out everything and take a couple of years to come to. I mean I I literally came went from Trinitarian into the biblical Unitarianism within two weeks. Without without ever thinking looking to see if. The Trinity was true or not that that. Was never on my mind. So it was quite a shock.

Sean Finnegan: 
You know, it's interesting too because that. That story you just related sounds a lot like Bill Schlegel's story.

Troy Salinger: 
Yes, yes. In fact, when I heard his testimony. On your show, believe. And when I heard I heard him, I thought the same thing and it's on. Contact, by the way, get to touch base with him, you know and. Told him my story and we've been friends ever since. So.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, because he started looking into that phrase, son of God.

Troy Salinger: 
Son of right.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah. And he he he like. You saw that. That was a title for the Messiah. For the King of Israel. And there wasn't any kind of ontological what content in that phrase. But still I think your average. Cat, even having gotten to that point, wouldn't just. Doubt the Trinity necessarily right?

Troy Salinger: 
Oh yeah.

Sean Finnegan: 
I mean, you guys definitely were like, well, well, hold on. If we take this leg out of. The stool. Does the stool still stand? So that's interesting.

Troy Salinger: 
And it did for me.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, but today we're talking about the Kingdom of God you've written this. Circle the postponement of the Kingdom of response to predators and anti missionary rabbis, and this is on your blog. Let the truth come out blog.wordpress.com and this is something that I have thought about over the years here and there it comes up from time to time. It's definitely a topic we're talking about. Probably the first time for me thinking about it was when I read Bart Ermano's early Jesus book. What was it called? Jesus, the apocalyptic prophet or something like that. And he wrote that book in the 90s. I came across it in the early 2000s and I was reading this book. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, this guy is so good. Of the Kingdom. You know, his scholarship on the kingdoms on point, it's really fascinating. But he also believes that. Jesus predicted an immediate Kingdom, drawing on the scholarship of a lot of others who came before him following the stream of Johannes Weiss and Albert Schweitzer, and their intellectual descendants. You know, Erman is an atheist and so. He he doesn't have the. Resurrection of Jesus. So he's like, Oh yeah, yeah. Jesus thought the Kingdom was going to come and then, but it didn't come. So he's a false prophet. So there you go and. I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What about the resurrection of Jesus? We've got such strong evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. We can't just say. The whole thing is a sham. You know what I mean? So that's when I started getting into this thought of postponements like, OK, well, maybe it was at hand. It was near and then it got postponed. But I don't want to steal your Thunder. Why don't you share a little bit? About your approach, Troy. Well, actually, let's start with the. And hear your thoughts on that. Just to just to get that clear for people before we get into this postponement idea.

Troy Salinger: 
OK. Let me just say first, I wasn't aware that autumn and you know what you were saying. About his his early book, but. Maybe I should change the? Title of my. Article to a response to creditors anti missionary, Rabbi and board earn.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, part of them is just one voice of many, you know.

Troy Salinger: 
Because, yeah, right. But the but the postponement of the Kingdom concept really answers his objection. And the objections of scholars like you know. Before we get into the postponement theory, it would be good to establish what the Kingdom of God is from a biblical perspective. As you well know, there are many. Views on on what the Kingdom of God is. And when I did my article, I have a. Three-part article on the Kingdom of God. Maybe you can post that in the you know the links to that.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, I'll make a note.

Troy Salinger: 
Podcast. But you know when I wrote those articles I looked online, I wanted to see how people, different people could find it. I got to exactly what I expected of variety of definitions. You know, I think for most people, the Kingdom, the the term Kingdom of God is very abstract. It's hard to. End down exactly what the phrase means. In any concrete terms, you know, most people just see it as some kind of nebulous idea. You know, a spiritual thing, something that's spiritual, something that's unseen, something that's within you. Something like that, but other views. Of of the Kingdom is that. The Kingdom is synonymous with the church. Or the Kingdom is synonymous with Christianity or Christendom. All of these ideas about what the Kingdom is, I think they are, you know, originate. From early church fathers. Probably from the 3rd century on, but they were Gentile church fathers. You know, Steve can Greek thought not very keen on Hebraic thoughts. You know, a lot of the church Charles had in fact made a conscious rejection of the Hebraic way of thinking. Especially about. And Kingdom, you know, viewing the Kingdom as from the Hebrew perspective as being carnal material, whereas you know. They had come to see the Kingdom as something spiritual and something that had the Kingdom had supplanted. You know, Judaism or national Israel? But anyway, from a biblical perspective, the Kingdom of God. And see when I. You know, first started doing a study about. Just like I did with the Gospels and the title son of God, I wanted it. I wanted to go back to the Hebrew scriptures to find out what. It's all about. You know, the typical way Christians usually do things is if you want to know what something is, Kingdom of God is son of God or whatever you. Just go to. The New Testament, because that's going to give you the answer. But you know, and that's like kind of. Like a little among. Scholars today, you know. Is that you interpret the Old Testament? Through the New Testament. But I kind of took. A different approach I wanted to. Interpret the New Testament through the old test. Since the New Testament was a fulfillment of the Old Testament, right, right, and and then all the Hebrew scriptures came first. And that's what Jesus was referring to and everything he said. That's what the apostles were referring to was the Hebrew scriptures, you know, it seemed kind of backwards to me to.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, that makes more sense to me.

Troy Salinger: 
Develop an idea. Of what? The Kingdom was just from the new. Testament. And then read that. Back into the old test. So I I took a different approach and I. Wanted to see what the. Kingdom of God was from a Hebraic perspective. And doing that, you know? It's very clear and plain in the. In the heat of scriptures. The phrase Kingdom of God does not necessarily appear anywhere in that in that sense. In the healing scriptures, but you do get references to where God speaks of my Kingdom, or people will refer to God's Kingdom in prayer. They'll say your Kingdom. There's a couple of times you get the phrase. The Kingdom of Yahweh. Basically, from a Hebraic biblical perspective. The Kingdom of God. Is the nation of Israel. You know, ruled by God as their king. When God delivered the. People of Israel out of Egypt. He told them, he said that. I have chosen you out of all. The nations of the world to be a. Kingdom unto me. He said more specifically, he said. A Kingdom of priests. But Israel was to be God's Kingdom out of all the kingdoms on the earth. God chose one Kingdom to be specifically his Kingdom, and that he was going to be the king of that Kingdom. Israel was a theocratic Kingdom. In other words, it had God as a king. And as such, God provided them with the law. A covenant. Israel was the Kingdom of God ruled by. God as their. In time, of course, we know what happened. The people during the time of Samuel the Prophet, the people demanded of Samuel, that he. Give them a king like the other nations a a human king. So Samuel didn't think this was a good idea. And he goes to God with this and. He's kind of mad about it, and but God says, look, don't worry about it. Saying you it's not you they're rejecting. It's me that they are rejecting as a king. And he says. But. Go ahead and give them the king. So Saul was the first king that God raises up and gives to Israel. That doesn't work out, and then God chooses David. And God is so pleased with David, he makes a covenant with David an everlasting covenant. The Covenant says basically that just from David and his seed, only from David and his seed will kings be chosen. To sit on the. So this narrows it down to one specific family. One specific line from which the Kings can be chosen. Now in this arrangement, God, God is still the primary king of of Israel, even though you know they wanted a human king. God is not going to be kicked off his throne that easily. And he gives them a human king. But in real sense, the human king is just a a vice region of God. He rules at God's pleasure and he rules on behalf of God. He's ruling over God's Kingdom. Which is Israel. And then we see that even the throne of the King of Israel is referred to. As the throne of Yahweh. In first chronicles. So we get this picture that Israel is still a theocratic king, even though there's a human king that God has provided that human king is to reign in accordance with. The will of. God. So you also see in in the Hebrew scriptures as you see a close association. Of one particular or maybe 2 prophets with the king, I like to refer to him as court prophets and this was because the king, again the king was. Not to rule. Was not to be an autocrat. And just rule by his own will and do whatever he wanted. He was to follow God's law first. He was to follow God's directions and instructions through the prophets. You know, this just could be worked out on a simple level of whether he should go to war with a particular nation, you know, he had to seek the Lord through the Prophet to determine God's. Will in in these matters. And so we see that even though a a human king was established. It will remain A theocratic Kingdom. So all through the prophets you see mentioned God being referred to as the King of Israel, even though there is a human king sitting on the throne. We see again, like I mentioned before, the throne of Israel is referred to as always throne. The Kingdom of Israel is referred to as always Kingdom. So this this is the biblical understanding what the of what the. Kingdom of God is. Now this is. Going to be totally foreign to most Christians, most Christians would never even think of it because they've been taught that the. Kingdom of God is. Something specifically associated with Jesus. And something spiritual.

Sean Finnegan: 
Right, like the church? Or it's just a a sense of belief in your heart or something.

Troy Salinger: 
Right. Yeah, but definitely not something as mundane as a particular nation. And it's a political and.

Sean Finnegan: 
A political.

Troy Salinger: 
But yet this is what the Bible tells us. And so when we come into the New Testament period. And we see John the Baptist comes on the scene, right? He's the first one that we see in the Gospels that comes on the scene and he begins to proclaim that the Kingdom. Of God is at hand. Now, I'm sorry. I'm gonna have to go back just a little more because, yeah, to understand what was meant by that. OK, we have to understand what? Happened to the Kingdom. OK, so Israel was the Kingdom of God, the theocratic Kingdom being ruled by David 1st and then David C Daphne Solomon and then others in that line God would choose as king. Well, all the time. You know, the Kings became more and more wicked first Solomon under Solomon because of his idolatry. God divided the Kingdom of Israel into a northern and a southern Kingdom. As time went on, the I believe. All of the. Kings of the northern Kingdom were did evil in. The eyes of God. So eventually God sold the Northern Kingdom into captivity. Under the Assyrian empire. They were taking captive and dispersed. The northern Kingdom held out for at. Least probably another 100. Years or so. They had some good changes, but the majority of of them were just like the kings of the Northern Kingdom. They did evil in the eyes of the Lord, and eventually God sent them to to exile, to under the Babylonian Empire. So what we have here is that the Kingdom of God was taken away from the people of Asia. There were no more. A Kingdom ruled by God. There were no more. A Kingdom ruled by a Davidic king who ruled under God and and for God. They were now being ruled by foreign powers. Other empires, you know? Kingdoms. Besides God, so the the Vedic dynasty was no longer a viable thing in in in for the Israelite. The Kingdom of God and the Davidic dynasty was in a state of desolation, even after the return. Of the Jews from exile. Back to the land. Under Persian rule, the Davidic dynasty was never reinstituted. They continue to be moved by whatever world empire. Was drooling at that time. First they came back in from exile under the Persian Empire. Eventually the Grecian Empire took over, and so Israel, though they were back in their land, was still under the power of the foreign king. Not under a divided king under the rule of God. But the prophets had predicted a time when when God was going to raise up a descendant of dated. And this, to Senator David, was going to restore. Back to fully back to the land and restore the theocratic rule of God. Over this Kingdom. And so. Through this, these promises that God gave through the prophets. The Israelites began to have hope. And began to. Wait and anticipate the coming of this one. Now, by the time of 1st century. I would have to say that that anticipation and hope had kind of waned for the most part. This is why sometimes you know you see in the Gospels. They'll note a specific person. And it says and he he was waiting for the chemo gun. Because it was, you know, it was something special to have somebody still. Waiting for the Kindle. Got of it. For the most part, that Hope had waned. The anticipation had waned. But the promise was still sure OK, so. Here we come down to the New Testament and we see John the Baptist shows up on the scene and he's proclaiming the Kingdom of God is at hand. Now he's declaring us to Israelites. Living in the land. What would they have thought when they heard John say that? What ideas would have come? Into their mind, when they heard John say. The Kingdom of God is at hand. Would they have been thinking of something just on a spiritual level, something internal?

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, yeah, they wouldn't be thinking of forgiveness, of sin, or justification by faith or anything along those lines.

Troy Salinger: 
Exactly. They they they had only one thing. To go by. Right. Even the Jewish writings in the into Testamental period, there was a a strong emphasis on this coming Kingdom of Messiah. You know this coming. They divided gula. Who? Who would restore Israel? Bring peace to the to the Earth and. All of that. There's no doubt in my. Mind that the. 1st century hearers of John's proclamation that the Kingdom of Heaven was that hand or the Kingdom of God was that they were connecting it to that Kingdom, that they had been longing for and anticipating, right, which is really a restoration of the Kingdom of of Israel, the theocratic Kingdom of Israel. Under a divided rule.

Sean Finnegan: 
It seems like there's a little more to it as far as some of Isaiah's prophecies. That this coming of the Kingdom would be accompanied by also unprecedented abundance and prosperity, and really an end to all war. Yeah, right. So like, I hear what you're saying as far as. It being a reestablishment. Of the Kingdom of Israel, but it's also. It seems to be even bigger and better.

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, yeah. Because see, the final stage of God's Kingdom, we could say.

Sean Finnegan: 
Than was ever there before.

Troy Salinger: 
Or the ideal? For God's Kingdom is that it is going to expand. Over the whole globe. It's not going to be confined to Israel. We look at the Assyrian Empire. OK? Well, Assyria was a Kingdom among other kingdoms, right? But what how a Kingdom became an empire. Was that they began. To you know, branch out beyond their own borders. And began to conquer the land of other kingdoms. Right. And as they do that, they take control of those areas and they expand their Kingdom that much. And as they keep doing that, they keep expanding their Kingdom. And you know, they become what we call an an empire. So, you know, that happened with the Assyrian Kingdom, then the Babylonian. Kingdom gained the ascendancy and we talked today about the Babylonian Empire. You know the the Grecian Empire. Well, you know, we might call the Kingdom of God the. Israelite empire. OK. In its final stage it has a a vital connection to the to the nation. The Kingdom of Israel. But in its final stage it's going to become an empire that's going to take. Over the whole globe. So these ideas about war ceasing. Between the nations. Is part of what? That of what that Kingdom is going to. Detail and part of the you know the the prophetic picture that we get of when this Davidic king was going to come and restore this Kingdom to Israel. That was all part of that prophetic picture. So John comes preaching this message and then not long after him, Jesus. Himself comes on the scene and it's proclaiming the same message. The King of of God is at hand. Early on in Jesus's ministry, he sends. The 12 out. To the different cities and two by two, he sent them out and they're proclaiming the same message between them. The typical way you know Christianity has come to view this is that, well, Jesus said the Kingdom was at hand. Therefore, after Jesus died and rose again, the Kingdom came, it was established. They take the view that it's, you know, more of a spiritual or internal kind of. There's a real problem here and a problem that. A lot of. Christians just never think, never tend to even think. About because they have a wrong view of the Kingdom because they see the Kingdom as only something internal or spiritual, they never see the problem. But the problem is that God had God has given. Through the Hebrew prophets, very specific and detailed prophecies about what was going to occur when this king came. You know, it included things like bringing all of the Exiles of Israel back. To the land. Included things like we've already talked about cessation. Of war worldwide. Where all the nations metaphorically beating their swords and the plowshares. There's the picture of prosperity in Israel from Israel out. To the world. You get the picture that Israel is going to be the head of the nations. Jerusalem is going to be the center of world politics. The King will be ruling in Jerusalem people. From all the nations will come to Jerusalem. To bring their wealth to the city, they will come to learn of the law from Jerusalem, from the king. You know, you get this prophetic picture, but you know none of this has ever taken place. None of this has happened since Jesus came. You know, Jesus shows up on the scene. He's basically rejected by the people put and put to death. Yes, he is risen from the dead, but something is not right here because none of these things that the Hebrew prophets were told has come to pass. So what this has led to a number of things like people had to come up with a an explanation for this why these prophecies were not fulfilled. If we believe that yeshuah of Nazareth is the Messiah, then how come these prophecies were not fulfilled in the way? You know, the Hebrew prophets foretold this is the problem again. Like I said, a lot of Christians don't even realize it's a problem because they don't see the Kingdom as something literal or physical material political. They only see it as spiritual. This also has become one of the. The main objections that Jews have had. Ever since the beginning of why no one should take serious, the claim that Yeshua of Nazareth is the Messiah that was foretold in the prophets. Because simply he did not fulfill the prophecies. He did not restore Israel to the land. He's not sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem. People are not coming to Jerusalem, bringing their wealth and learning the law from the from the king in Jerusalem. The nations have Nazis from war, so this is one of the main objections that Jews. Have had over. The centuries. But there's a big push today with what has been called or called anti missionary rabbis. You can find them. Online, and I mean they are. They are vicious in their attacks against. Yeshua is being a Messiah. You know the main objection they have is this non fulfillment of the of the prophets. But another way that Christians came to deal with this problem. Different ways of trying to solve the problem began to, you know, arise, and one of them is what we know today is preterism, and preterism tries to answer the problem of the non fulfillment of prophecy by in effect saying. Well, actually the prophecies were fulfilled. Just not in a. Literal sense. They were fulfilled in their spiritual sense. And most treacherous will say that all of those prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD. I don't want to, you know, say anything offensive to any. Brothers out there who who holds your predators? Viewpoint. I consider them brothers. I don't consider this to be necessarily something. That's going to. Keep somebody out of the Kingdom. But I mean, I have to be honest and. Truthful you know I. I just don't understand how someone can read the the prophecies and the Hebrew scriptures and make. Such a claim. That that they've been fulfilled in a spiritual way in 70 AD when Jerusalem was. Attacked by the Romans and destroyed, and the people of Israel were sent into exile. I don't see how that prepares any of those prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures. Sounds like quite the opposite, in fact. So this was one way of trying to solve the problem of non fulfillment of of prophecy. Frank, I just don't think it works. Do you have any knowledge of the preterism?

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've seen him around. You know, there's the, the two different main forms. You've got full preterism and partial preterism and the full preterists, whom I've encountered a couple over the years. They would argue that everything has already been fulfilled. You know, there's nothing left to be done. Jesus already came back already gathered together his chosen people. And you know, we're just sort of like awkwardly plotting along on Earth like it's hard to see how a full Pretorius is different than a deist, essentially that God is totally disinterested in what's happening in the world. And then the partial. Rhetoric. You know, they're they have a much more viable theory in the sense that they still see Christ coming as a future event. But they believe everything else has already occurred apart from the coming of Christ and the establishment of the Kingdom. So I think I would say that I I don't know if I'd be quite as charitable as you. I would say full pretorious I I would not recognize them as Christians.

Troy Salinger: 
With the partial.

Sean Finnegan: 
Predators. I would recognize them as brothers and sisters. No problem. You're right. It's a response to these timing statements we see in the Gospels where Jesus seems to be saying. And you're right, John the Baptist really starts. It seems to be saying. Look, this Kingdom is about to happen. It's about to come. On Earth, and so the Predators is saying, well, it did come. But then the question is well. And what sense did it come? And that's really where I think there's a lot of disagreement.

Troy Salinger: 
Right. Exactly because they they can't say it. It happened literally.

Sean Finnegan: 
Right. They will typically say Christ came in judgement in the year 70. What in the guise of Titus, Vespasian and Titus who destroyed the temple. But if you look at the content of the Kingdom like you've already pointed out from an Old Testament perspective. It's a lot more than just judgment, you know. Yes, it is judgment, but there's also restoration.

Troy Salinger: 
Exactly right, you right.

Sean Finnegan: 
And there there's the political reality.

Troy Salinger: 
Right, you you can't have the fulfillment of the Hebrew prophets just in. A judgment on. Jerusalem it's if you just can't do it. OK, there is the promise of the restoration. Of Israel to its former status. As God's Kingdom, the theocratic Kingdom, where God is ruling over the nation of Israel through a divided king, right? So without that you don't have the fulfillment of problems. So and and I should have been a little more clear when I said what I said I I was in my mind. Thinking about the false brothers. About, you know, accepting them as as believers, right? The full predators, I believe that they deny. Physical resurrection, if I'm not mistaken, not of Jesus. Necessarily, but of of believers. Yeah. So I yeah, I would. Have a hard time accepting them as. True brother, but. OK, So what we want to look at. Is another way to solve. The problem or to answer? The problem of. The non fulfillment of. Is this idea this theory concept of the postponement of the Kingdom? This would be to say that when John the Baptist came and Jesus after him proclaiming. That the Kingdom of God was at hand, that they were talking about that same Kingdom that we see in the Hebrew scriptures. The same Kingdom. That, no doubt the hearers of John and and Yeshua would have thought of when they heard them proclaim the Kingdom of God. They would no doubt have thought that they were proclaiming that the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel under the Vedic ruler was about to happen. They that's how they would have heard it. That's how they would have understood it. They couldn't have understood. It any other way? We would expect. Then the fulfillment of all those prophecies to take place within a very. Short period of time. We we know that they did not and even down to this very day they have not. So the theory is this that that. The establishment of the Kingdom at that time was near. But that it was contingent upon the repentance and obedience of the people of Israel at that time. Whether it was going to actually be established because of their response. The Kingdom was postponed. It was withdrawn. It was, we could say, delayed until a further time in the future. Yeah, I think they're. In my article I I give 4. Facts that we see in the gospels that. In my mind anyway. Established the this postponement of the Kingdom theory as being truthful, so the first one would be that the establishment of the Kingdom was proclaimed as. Being at hand or. India and we already saw that .2 would be that the establishment of the. Kingdom was contingent. OK, now in a few minutes we'll look at some scriptures that confirmed that point. But the Third Point would be that the Jewish leaders rejected Yeshua as their king, and they led the. People to do likewise. Now this is important factor that that the Jewish leadership had to acknowledge Yeshua as their king and actually anoint him as king. In doing so, the people would have followed. And leave, but in fact the Jewish leadership rejected your ship.

Sean Finnegan: 
Most certainly did reject him, no question.

Troy Salinger: 
Yes. Yeah, alright. And that and then we go to the 4th fact that we see in the in the New Testament that after your shoe was removed from the Earth, his loyal followers, the disciples were found to be in a state of waiting and anticipation for something to to come. OK. The establishment of the Kingdom. Alright, so those four points, I think you know establish. The idea of the postponement of the Kingdom. Now the first point nobody is going to argue. With that, OK, that the Kingdom. Of was proclaimed as being at hand. Or near by John the Baptist, head by. The shoe, but nobody is going to argue that point. They're going to say, well, yes it it was and and it did come. They they might recognize what, what the Hebrew scripture says about the Kingdom, but they'll. They'll say, but this is a new kid. OK, it's a you know we have a new covenant. We have a New Testament. And so we got a. New Kingdom too, OK. That's how most people would say, you know, explain that so they don't even. They're not even aware of the problem of the non fulfillment of the prophetic scripture. It's just that it was a different Kingdom. So it's got nothing to do. With that thing that was promised that because Israel. That did the Messiah. God rejected them. And so all of those promises are done away with. But you know, there's a big problem with that. When when you see God say things like he's telling Israel that he's going to judge him and he says, but I'm not going to destroy you completely because you're. Our chosen people and you know, basically he's saying I'm never going to destroy you complete. I will. I will discipline you. You take the promises to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. These promises are everlasting promises. It doesn't matter what any generation of Israelites do that may cause God to reject them and send them out of the land and the exile or whatever. The promises to the Patriot to remain OK. Paul says God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. OK, the call of God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And the promises made to them, or irreparable. They. They can't be a no or done away with. God has ideals in his mind. OK? When he chose Israel, he had an ideal of what that nation was to be. And you know Israel's never. Attained to that I. Well, we might say it at some point they're under the reign of David. And Solomon came very close to it, but since this the Solomon went, fell into idolatry, and the Kingdom was divided. Then from that point on, you know, Israel was never going to. Attain that ideal. But you know, God's plans are not thwarted, right? He's going to have that idea. He hasn't given up on his plan for Israel. He hasn't annulled the promises made to Abraham. Isaac and Jacob. Those promises or everlasting promises and God is going to. Have his way in the end. Yeah. So the promises of God are are. Irrevocably, they they can't be a null.

Sean Finnegan: 
But how he gets it done? That's not necessarily irrevocable, right?

Troy Salinger: 
No, no, exactly, exactly there is.

Sean Finnegan: 
So it could be done this way. It could be done that. Way you know, but he's working with free moral agents who are allowed to reject his will.

Troy Salinger: 
Right. Right, exactly. And that's what we're going to look at next is the this idea of contingency, OK, that's my second point. The full point is that the establishment of the. Candidates was contingent. Now as soon as you start talking about something like this, a lot of people get very nervous and they just don't. Like this idea, you know. They think through the influence of certain theological perspectives, you know, Calvinism, reformed theology. People get this idea that everything is set in stone. It's all predetermined. There's no deviation from the plan in any sense. When you read the scripture I. Mean it just shouts out to you. That that is not the way. That you think. Let me give you an example. When God delivered Israel out of Egypt, what was his intention? His intention was to take. Him to the. Promised land, right? He told them that that's why he was bringing. Them out of. Egypt and he was going to take them to this land of plenty land flowing with milk and honey, and he was going to give them that land as their inheritance trap. And we have nothing to tell us at any point from the outset when God delivered him out of Egypt, that there was going to be any delay in this they. Were going to go straight there. Straight to the land. So you know, it took a month or two or whatever to travel there and when they get to the borders of the of the land of Canaan, Moses sends 12 spies into the land to spy out the land. And see, you know the situation. So the 12 slides go and. They you know. They see it's a great land. It's abundant prosperity. The food is abundant and. Everything is. Just like God said. Only if it's one problem. The people that live there, these are big people. These are big people. You know. So they come back and they report to the Israelites. You know that? Yes. It's just like God said at the bunce, there's abundance there. But the people that live there, they're very large people. And we just are not able to go up and take the land. Well, these 12 spies spread this around. Well, 10 of the 12, two of them maintain that yes, we can go up and take it. God is with us. God has promised us. Let's go get it. But ten of them spread this negative report among the whole community to the point that the whole community refused to. Go up and take the land. Though God had commanded him to do so. Well, if you read the story and it's in numbers 14. God is furious with the people. He's ready to just wipe. Them all out. And Moses intercedes for them. And God's, you know, relents from that. But what does God do? He delays or postpones their entrance into. The land of cane. For 40 years. 40 years. This postponement is in direct relationship to their refusal to go up and take the land as God commanded them to do. So this is a, you know, one good example of how God had a plan. He commanded the people to do something. The people refused to do it, and as a result. What God had planned was postponed. Was delayed. Now this doesn't mean that it it wasn't going to happen. It certainly was going to happen.

Sean Finnegan: 
Right. Well, he had promised to Moses that it was going to happen. And what exit is 6 or 7? So yeah, it needed to happen, but how, how and when you know, was Moses going to be 40 years old or was he going to be 80 years old?

Troy Salinger: 
God tells them directly. It is because you refuse to go up and take the land. As I commanded you that now every one of you who came. Out of Egypt. Everyone of you will die in this desert. I'm going to make you remain in this desert for 40 years, until every one of you die in this desert and only your children who come after you will go into the land. All right, so a direct connection between their refusal to obey God's command and a postponement or delay on what God promised to give. The next generation they did obey. They went up and and they went into. The land. So. God's promises, what he has planned for his people. Though it may be postponed. Because of the response of the people, ultimately it's going to be fulfilled. Man's disobedience can't stop God's plan from happening. It can delay it. And that's because there needs to be a time for judgment and and discipline when there's rebellion. And so that time it in itself is a delay. That's that's an example of contingency. In the scriptures. There are other examples we could think about during the Babylonian captivity the prophets prophesied. About their return back to the land and it sure seems in those prophecies that it looks like that their return to the land was going to be something very glorious and kind of like a restoration of back to their original state, and even a more glorious. But they come back to the land and it never panned out. You know, it just never happens. They're still under gentle domination. Even up until the time when your shoer comes on the scene, they're still under Gentile domination, right? They're Rollins are in their land. Ruling over them. You know, we can see that there was most likely contingency in in that sense too. Read the prophecy of Malachi. This is after they had come back to. The land and they were high. Hopes they rebuilt the temple and according to the prophecies. Something great should have happened. But it never did. And you read Malachi and you see you might see why God had a some problems with the people at that time who had come back to the length. Again, there was disobedience, there was rebellion, there was people just not doing things the way God wanted them to do it. And especially the leaders, you know, the priests and the elders and the the corruption and and things like that. So you know, we can see contingency there. But let's look at how we can see that there's a contingency. With the establishment of the. And that was proclaimed to be near or at hand by John and by Yeshua.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, this would be good. So you can layout your evidence because it's not just a theory. You do have some scriptures.

Troy Salinger: 
So it's about 3:00, maybe 4 main passages that that we can get this idea, contingency from. So if we look at Matthew 2337 through 39 as he's coming into Jerusalem, he says this, he says Ohh Jerusalem. Jerusalem. You who killed the prophets and stoned those sent to you. How often I? Have longed to gather your children together and they hand gathers. For chicks under. The wings. But you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the rule. You see here that Jesus is addressing the City of Jerusalem in a kind of like a prophetic role. Old Jerusalem, Jerusalem. You who killed the prophets, stone. Those sent to you kind of rehearsing. The history of Jerusalem and Jerusalem leader. How they changed over the years to to treat the profits and the and those that got sent. To them, right? And that's because the leadership for the most part was was typically corrupt, and the prophets would come proclaiming repentance. But but mostly they would come proclaiming the judgment of God. Upon them, but people just didn't want. To accept that. And so they would mistreat the prophets. Kill some. Of them, you know you can read all. About that in the in the. Kings and the chronicles and some of the proper. You know, he starts out kind of rehearsing at that history. And, you know, you get the idea that nothing's really changed much. OK, Jerusalem leadership is still the same as they've typically. Been in the past. That if they always seem to be. In opposition to God's plans. But Jesus says he says how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers the ships. Under the wing. That, to me is a a fitting depiction of a king wanting to provide for his people his nation that care and protection that a king provides. He says how often I've gone. You know, I can imagine just you were just from a very early age knowing who he is, knowing at some point that he is the chosen one from David's line to be that king. Going up to Jerusalem Year after year for the feast, as he's growing up, of course, you know we don't. The Gospels mostly starred with Jesus at age 30, right about to start his ministry. We get a little glimpse in blue. Of Yeshua at age 12, I think he where he goes up to Jerusalem with his family for one of the feasts. But you know Yeshua as a young Jewish man was required to go up to Jerusalem every year for three of the feast, right? So no doubt, he went to Jerusalem many times, even though it's not recorded. In the in the. And I can. Imagine him knowing that he's the the chosen. One from the line of David. And seeing every time he goes to Jerusalem, you know, seeing the oppression of the Roman government in the land. With their soldiers in the land and the heavy taxation that they placed upon them. And the things that the. The Jewish people were not allowed to. Do you know because of? Roman Roman rule. And I can. Imagine you're you're going to do them all of these many years and just longing to fulfill the prophetic picture. Of what he was being raised up to do to be their king and to deliver them from his ******* and to take them under his wings. But he says that now you know, having come out to the world publicly proclaiming himself. Has someone sent from God and as a Messiah they were not willing? He said. So he says. How often I've learned together and shown them together. And you were not willing. Now, when he's saying Jerusalem, Jerusalem. But you know. He's not referring to the brick and. Of the walls of Jerusalem or the building the Jerusalem right. He's referring to the the people, right? He's referring to, first of all, the leadership and the people. OK. But I I think the leadership is really in view more than we might think. If you go back, you know, I think. There was a. A pattern that was established for the bringing a king raising a king up to the throne. If you look first in the first King, Saul Samuel Anointed Saul as king privately. And then he presented him to the people. And the people who had to approve of him, OK. And so the elders of the all the tribes, you know, come together and they approve of Saul. And they say Saul is our king. Then you get the same thing with David. David is anointed privately by Samuel first. But then. Later, after a long period of time, actually the Elders of Israel, of all the tribes, come together. They acknowledge David as the king, and they anoint him. Again, as king. And then we see the same thing with Solomon. God had already chosen Solomon out of all of David's sons to be the next one to sit on the throne. But it was necessary for the. All the elders of the tribes to come together. And to acknowledge Solomon as the one whom God chose, and then to anoint him publicly. What the leadership does, they are, that's what leaders do, right? So if you're going to lead the people, you bring the one who God shows, and before the people and acknowledge him openly before the people. So the people will follow suit. This is why it's very important that the Jerusalem leadership acknowledges you is the chosen one from the line of David as the. King yeah.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, you did have the people you did have. The people proclaim him at the triumphal entry. But then the leaders rejected him. It's almost like it's the opposite order.

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: 
But the leaders rejected him clearly.

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, you know, I'm not so sure I. Have to look. Into it a little. More, but I think you know the people that were proclaiming issue as the king when he was riding into doors and they were putting their palm branches and cloaks on the load. I think these were people. His followers from Galilee that had followed him to Jerusalem. Jesus did have. A A larger group of disciples beside the 12. You know from Galilee, and that's most. Likely. Who that? Was that was they had followed Jesus to Jerusalem. And they were the ones hailing him as the king and residing into Jerusalem. That's not to say that you know some. Of the inhabitants of Jerusalem did. Not acknowledge the shoe as the king. But we we know that the leadership rejected him and we know that the majority of the people did too. They followed the lead of the of their leaders. Why should they accept? Yes, you as the king. If the leadership is rejecting when you go in the Book of Action, you see Peter and a couple of times and his sermons, you know, he's. Pinpointing the Jewish leadership for what they did rejecting Yeshua. It was very important that that the leadership acknowledges you so that the people would follow suit. Here he says you. Know how often I've longed to? In a sense, be your king. But you are not willing. And so, he says. Now look, your house is left to your desk. Most people understand this. To refer to. The destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Because they, you know, your house is left to you desolate. OK. So the house that's associated with Jerusalem? Well, that's the temple. I think that's the way most people would understand this. I don't think that's. What Jesus meant? Says your house at. The left to you, that's. Now that word left there, it has a kind of a wide semantic range to it, but it definitely has the idea of to remain in a condition or a place to be left remaining. So like it's used a couple of times, like in the same chapter or next chapter some. Where Jesus says again the target he they were talking about the temple and Jesus says not one stone will. Be left upon another. OK, it's the same word. So not one stone will be left remaining upon another stone is basically. The meaning right? So I think what Jesus is saying here is look, your house will remain desolate. Is being left to you desolate. In other words, it's already desolate. And it could have been changed. Had you been willing? But now, because you are unwilling, it is left to you. That's it remains desolate. If that's true, what if that's how we can understand the issue as words? Then it wouldn't be referring to the temple because at that time the temple was not. Desperate, that wouldn't happen for another 40 years. What I would. Propose is that. The house that he's referring to, what other house is has an A close association with the City of Jerusalem. That was in a desolate condition at the time, Jesus said these words. And that would be the House of David. The the Davidic dynasty. As we saw before the the Davidic dynasty was in, in a state of desolation at the time issue came on the scene. You know you can read about this. Desolation of the Davidic throne and dynasty in the Psalm 80. We're not going. To go there, you know, now for time sake. But I would encourage anybody. To read the whole song, but the the last section of that song speaks about the desolation of the House of David, the Davidic throne. The House of David was in that desolate condition ever since the Babylonian captivity. The Babylonians came in, took the king to Babylon, and they destroyed the city. And there's never been a divided king sitting on the throne of Israel ever since then. We can see that the House of David or the dynasty of David was in a desolate state at the time. Jesus. Was on the scene. He's telling them if you know, I have longed to gather your children together and others I've longed to fulfill my role as King. And to gather you together as under my wings. But you are not willing. Look, your house has left you desolate. In this we see I see contingency, right? That what if they had been willing? What if the Jerusalem leadership had acknowledges you? As the king. And anointed him publicly in front of the people, and the people would have rallied around him as their king. What would have? It appears from if I'm correct in interpreting this the way I am. That the House that was desolate would have been restored and and indeed this was the promise in the Hebrew scriptures that the House of David would be restored the the fall intent of David would be restored at some point. God would raise up a king from the line of David. And this would bring about the restoration of the the Vedic dynasty. And then he says, where I tell you, you will not see me again until you. Say blessed if you comes in. The name of the. This is a phrase blessed receive comes in the name of the Lord that refers to the king. It comes from believe Psalm 118, which depicts a royal procession up to the House of God. In the song, the people are shouting. Blessed if you comes. In the name. Of of Yahweh. And they're shouting this to to the. King, when Jesus rides into Jerusalem, this is. What his disciples are showing this shouting blessed is he who comes in. In, in the name of the rule. Which is recognizing him as that that descendant of David, who God has raised up. To restore the Davidic house, the Davidic dynasty to, and then to restore the Kingdom to Israel. So we see from this person is that the establishment of the Kingdom. Under the rule of this Davidic descendant was contingent upon the leadership. And then the people following their lead, acknowledging issue as their king. Any questions about them?

Sean Finnegan: 
I don't have any substantive comments on on that. You know, it's something I have to think about a little bit more, to be honest. The House left you desolate point. But let's let's take a look at. What else you have?

Troy Salinger: 
All right. And Luke, 1941 through 44, it says. As he approached Jerusalem and saw the. City. He wept over it and said. If you even you had only known on this day, what would bring you peace? But now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hems you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground and you and the. Children within your walls. They would not leave one stone on another because you did not recognize the time of your visitation. Without elaborating too much, let me just say this seems pretty clear that it's there's contingency involvement. If you had known. This day, what would bring you peace and that peace, no doubt is that Shalom that is often foretold in the in the prophetic word about that time that messianic period is peace, you know. That would come. But he says if you'd only know, but now it is hidden in your eyes and then toward the end, he says that instead of that. Piece you instead of that you are going to experience a a devastation and it's directly linked to the fact that you did not recognize the time of your visitation. You know, so we have to ask the. Question like what? Would have happened if they had recognized the. Time that if this station. What would have happened if they if they had known on that day what would bring them peace? And that is no doubt that he was their king and. And that by acknowledging him as the king that the Kingdom would have. Been established. That's the. Kind of questions that I ask when I read. Something like that. You know what, what would have been? Had the people recognized you? The only other passages I have, and this probably will get is a little more involved, so I don't know if it will have time, but let me just do it briefly. As brief as I can. But in Matthew 1710 through 13, the disciples asked him why then do the teachers of the law say that? Elijah must come first and Jesus replied to be sure Elijah is coming and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come. And they did not recognize. But have done to him everything they wish. In the same way, the son of man. Is going to suffer. At their hands. And then the disciples understood. That he was talking to them about John the Baptist. All right, so. There's this prophecy. In the Hebrew Bible that Elijah is going to come prior to the Messiah. OK, doesn't say it quite that explicitly, but that's how the Jews understood it that that comes. From the book of. Malachi believe obviously the teachers of the law at that day understood Malachi would be saying. That because that's what the site was. Asking why then do the? Chief of the law say he lied. And Jesus doesn't say, oh, well, the teachers. The law alone. Now, he says, well, to be sure, Elijah is. Coming and will. We still all. Think, but I tell you, Elijah is already. Now you have. To couple this. With a passage later earlier in Matthew and after 11/14. Where Jesus is talking to the crowds and he's talking about John the Baptist, how he is the greatest of all that are born of women he. Was the greatest one. And he was a prophet. And then he said it's about how from the time of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of God has been. Suffering violence and the violent. Or snatching it away. OK, that's one way it can be interpreted. It's a very ambiguous passage, and it's able to be interpreted in various ways depending. On whether you. Take the verbs as pass. Or middle. They could go either way. So after saying that, he says talking about the Kingdom of God suffering violence. I think that's the way it should be translated at the hands of the the leadership, he says. But if you are willing to receive it, then he is the Elijah who was to come. John is the. Elijah, who was to. Now typically people are going to take that when he says if you are willing to receive it. Most of the time, and I always took it this way, if you're willing to receive that John is the Elijah the cup. But he just finished talking about the Kingdom, and then he says if you were willing to receive it. John is the Elijah who wants to come. I think he may be referring to if you are willing to receive the Kingdom. Then John is the Elijah who was to come. So there's a sense in which if the prophecy is given in such a way that if the people would have acknowledged Yeshua as their king, then. The Kingdom of God could have been established then. And and John the Baptist would have fulfilled the prophecy about Elijah in other. Words he would have been. Elijah, who was to come. But because the Kingdom is rejected and he said that in earlier on in the in the gospel, but by this point where the passage in Matthew 17, now he's saying. That Elijah is coming and will restore all things. Although Elijah has already come in, John, but they did not recognize me. So again, we see that there's some contingency built into the prophecies. If the people had accepted Yeshua at that time, if the Kingdom had been established, then. Then John would have fulfilled the prophecy about enlarging, but because. He's being rejected. First they rejected John, and now they're rejecting him. We can now we can look to a future fulfillment of that prophecy about your life. In other words, Elijah is coming in the future to fulfill their prophecy. It could have been fulfilled by John, and it would. We wouldn't need it any further. Future fulfillment of it. But because he was rejected. We now can. Look for future fulfillment of the larger profits.

Sean Finnegan: 
OK. Yeah, that makes sense. What about the counterfactual scenario where? They did accept Jesus. Jesus would still need to die for our sins, right? How would that? How would that workout?

Troy Salinger: 
It was prophesied that the servant of. The Lord would die. You know, we can only conjecture on that. Right. I mean we. No one knows exactly. How it it would have worked out but. I mean, I can think of. The scenario where it could have worked. Had did Jerusalem leadership rallies around Yeshua brings him before the people anoint him as king? All the people rallied to him. Yeshua then begins to fulfill the prophetic. Picture conquering the enemies. Of releasing Israel from their oppressors, beginning the whole. Thing you know. That that was prophesied and the establishment of the of the Kingdom, and that Rome, in response to this, would have no doubt arrested Jesus if it had to play out that. He had to die, then Jesus would submit it and then Jesus would have died and then rose from the dead, and then everything would have probably been. Profiled at that point.

Sean Finnegan: 
And then immediately establish the Kingdom of God.

Troy Salinger: 
OK, exactly, exactly.

Sean Finnegan: 
Which is what the apostles. Were thinking right because they asked them in acts 1/6, right? They're like, oh, is this the time?

Troy Salinger: 
Right. I I think that's exactly what they would think acts 1/6. Are you at this time going to restore the Kingdom to Israel? Again, that shows number one, they think they're not thinking about a spiritual king. You know something that's within something that's unseen. They still have in their mind that it's the Kingdom prophesied by the Hebrew prophets of the restoration of the theocratic Kingdom of Israel under the Vedic king. This is presumably after Jesus had been meeting with him over 40 day period. After his resurrection. And it even says in acts one that during that time when he was meeting. With him, he was. Teaching them about the Kingdom of God. And so at the end of that. Period right before. Jesus is descended. They asked him. Are you at this time going to restore the Kingdom to his? How could they ask such a question? And he's been teaching them this whole time. If he is teaching them that if that this is a whole. Different Kingdom now guys. This is not about the Kingdom you heard about in. The Hebrew Prophets, we're doing something new now. If that's what he taught them during that that 40 day period about the Kingdom, then why would they ask such a question like that? The fact that they asked that question shows that there was no change in the meaning of what the Kingdom of God was. They still held to the same concept of the Kingdom of God, and they were expecting it now that if the Messiah had died and rose from the dead, they were expecting it to happen. Jesus doesn't deny doesn't say anything to them to dissuade them of their belief in what the Kingdom is. He simply tells them it's not for you to know the times that's in the father's hands. And it'll happen when when his timing is right. And then that leads to my fourth point, 4th fact of the gospel is that from that point on, all in the rest of the New Testament, you see the believers, the disciples waiting in anticipation for Yeshua to come to return and establish his Kingdom. And nobody knows when it's going to happen. Right? So. One of the things like predators usually bring up is. That well. It it had to happen in the 1st century because all the apostles said. It was going to happen in in their time. Right. That's because they didn't know the time. How could you shower, say to them you don't know the timing, but then we gonna say they knew it was going to happen in their generation. Well, no, that that doesn't jive.

Sean Finnegan: 
Either they know it or they. Don't know it.

Troy Salinger: 
Right, they believed it. Was going to happen in their general. That that wasn't a revelation, that they had that. It was going. To happen, the reason God withholds the knowledge of the time. Is cause he wants he. Knows it's going. To be a longer time. We don't know that. Or the the first disciples. Didn't know that, but God knew that. So God knew there was going to be another generation and another generation after he wants every generation to have the anticipation. And to be waiting. And to be longing for it. OK, so the only way you can do that is to withhold that information about the time, because if he would have told that first generation ohh it's going. To be another 2000 years. Then you'd have 2000 years of generations of believers not anticipating it, not looking for. And there's something about that that looking for it and anticipating it and longing for it to happen in your lifetime. There's something about that that just it's a vital part of our of our faith and of our relationship to your child to have that anticipation. If we knew the timing, we wouldn't.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah. Let me ask you this, Troy. If the first time around the requirement was for the Jewish leaders to accept Jesus as the Messiah, would it be fair to say that that is currently what God is waiting on to send Jesus back? That if the Jewish, I don't know who the Jewish leaders are, but, you know, I guess the religious leaders and the political leader, I don't know what, what do you think?

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, I I think that it's very likely that I don't know so much if God is waiting on them. I think now God has set a time and he's going to do it. And at that time they they. They will acknowledge. Whatever leaders are in place at that time, they will acknowledge. It's going to be overwhelming. It won't be. Able to deny. I don't know necessarily. I mean, you know, look, I could be wrong about this, but I don't know necessarily that God is waiting for that or if God just has a set time now and that when that happens, the Jerusalem leadership will acknowledge.

Sean Finnegan: 
Yeah, I bring that up because there are some Christians who are very focused on Israel and really want to see. Christianity, or at least some form of Christianity, maybe a minimalist Christianity that just acknowledges Jesus as Messiah. But, you know, maybe the Jewish people are still keeping the law. More of a messianic kind of flavor. They want to see that spread in Israel because they believe that until that happens, Jesus can't come back. But you're not really going that far.

Troy Salinger: 
No, I I I wouldn't. Repudiate that altogether. I'm just saying I'm not. Sure, I don't. You know, I haven't come to any any. Firm conviction on the. I mean it could be possible you.

Sean Finnegan: 
Know. OK, we might as well have you address the whole issue of open theism versus Arminianism, where you've got the the one view that says the future is. Open and God has not already looked to see or has doesn't have access to see what happens in the future versus the view that says, Oh no, God can see the future. He saw that the Jewish leaders were going to reject him because you do get into this a little bit. So could you give us a little bit of a rundown?

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah. You know, if anybody out there doesn't know what open theism is, basically, it's the idea that the future is open to God, depending upon what people do. OK, that God has given men free will. And that there may be contingencies involved in the working out of God's plan, not a contingency in God's plan. OK. Not like. Ohh, Well, Man's will toward a plan A now. God's gotta go to Plan B. No, it's the same plan. Just made it the way it's worked out has to be rearranged to accommodate the free will of man. I think God cares so much about the freedom of man that he does this. He builds contingencies into his plan. Personally, I leaned toward the open. Theism view I don't accept it. You know everything I've heard from that. From that perspective, there's some things I think go too far. But I I think there's a lot to commend it. It tries to take the scripture much more seriously, I think, than the other view. Which you know has to reinterpret a lot of scripture. Well, just for instance, you know when when God made Saul King and then gave him a command to do something and and he rebelled. He sent Samuel to him. And saying, he says. To him, God would have established your throne forever. But now he is taking it away from. That's a contingency. I'm sorry, but you know. You can try. To spend that any way you want to make it fit your theology, but that's a contingency God would have done something different if Saul had done something different. I don't see how you. Escape that.

Sean Finnegan: 
You do point out that it is possible that God foresaw that contingency and sort of planned with that in mind, right?

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah. OK. Yeah, that's one of the things you know where. I I don't go. So far, with the open theaters and. And I know there's a lot of different views, you know, not. Every open theist. Is going to think the same. I don't have a problem with God foreseeing things. OK, it's just maybe like, how does he foresee it? But we really don't know. I don't hold to the classical. View of God, you know. Like, just like he just automatically has all the knowledge of everything. Just by virtue of being God, because in the scripture you see. God testing men to see what is in their heart, he led, he tells Israel. I LED you through the desert 20 years to test you, to find out what is in your heart, if you will love me and obey, there's a sense in which I think God can foresee things because he knows people much better than any. You know. It's like if if you and I. Can predict like. What our wife will do or or how our wife will respond to something that we have to tell them and and I can. Do that pretty good. If I know if I have something, I gotta tell my wife and I'm thinking about it all day, I I know. Exactly how she's. Going to respond when I tell her because. I know her. I. Can do that OK. Then how much more God, whose knowledge is so of people and of everyone really is so much greater than any knowledge. We can have of each other. Certainly he can foresee in a sense. How people are. Going to react and respond to certain things. Especially Israel, you know, I mean, how many times in the Hebrew Bible we find God, you know, talking about the nation of Israel as a whole. And, you know, he says things like you are stiff neck, you know, stubborn people, rebellious people. I know that you're going to do this because you are stubborn. He his experience with them had caused him to know how they're going to react in the distant future. He even had Moses write a. Song for them. Telling Moses once they get it into, they're just to say we're about to go. Into the land, he said.

Sean Finnegan: 
Running me 32, yeah.

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, he said. Look, they're going to get into the land, they're going to settle in their houses. They're going to have all those abundant and prosperity, and then they're. Going to forget about me? And they're going to worship other gods. And he says. But write this song. And so that all their generations will remember this song, and they'll know that everything that happened to them in judgment. Happened because of their rebellion happened just as God said it was going to happen. If. If you do this, this is what. Gonna have God had 40 years of experience with him in the desert when he was ready to put it, bring him in the promised land. He knew what. Was going to. Happen right. And he was right. OK. He read the book of Judges. It's not a pretty picture. Open piece or not going to have a problem with what I'm saying. The postponed there. OK, because they allow for the. That openness in in the future, things that contingency where God will, in a sense, adjust the way he's working out his plan according to how men respond to him, yeah.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, open theism always takes God's involvement in interaction with people very seriously, but I think some of the the foreknowledge views because you have kind of a sliding scale, you've got the open theism, which everything's open and really anything could happen. And then you have the middle position. There are many in position, often so-called, that God can see everything that's ever going to happen in the future. He has full access, exhaustive foreknowledge, but somehow and this is really a quite a mystery. By knowing that. He still preserves people's free will. And then the third position, the strongest position is the traditional Calvinist view which says God knows everything that is going to happen and has determined it as well, at least with respect to salvation. And so you have a wide spectrum. And what I hear you saying as far as this postponement idea. Is that it's still compatible with anyone of these three views? Because God could have planned out that the people would reject him and that this contingency would be. Would be in actuality or it could have just happened and he didn't realize it was going to happen. It could happen or not happen, and it whatever happened, he still had a plan figured out, right?

Troy Salinger: 
Yeah, I would think it's it's probably not compatible with the extreme deterministic view because they really. Say God knows. It because he determined. OK, that's why he knows.

Sean Finnegan: 
But he could determine that they reject him, right?

Troy Salinger: 
I I can't go with that it well, you you only got 2 choices. Did God predetermined for the Jewish leadership to reject his shoe with the king or did they have the? Free will to accept. Him or reject. So that's the only two options based on like the passages I read from the Gospels, things that she was said that. They could have. They had the free will and they could have accepted him as their king, and the Kingdom could have been establish. I think God knew this in advance. That they were. Going to act the way they did. OK, based on, you know everything God knew about the Jews, he knew that he knew that that was going to happen. That doesn't mean they, they they didn't have the free will. OK, just because God can know how somebody's going to act freely doesn't mean God's determining them to act that way. Of course you know this, the postponement view, I think is going to go. More easily with the open new. And then it's going to go over, you know. The lease with the strict determinist view. I think the. Middle ground could still accept this this. View without a problem.

Sean Finnegan: 
OK. Well, let's bring our conversation to an end there. And if people want to delve more deeply into this subject, they can read the article on let the truth come out blog.wordpress.com. Is called the postponement of the Kingdom of response to Pretorius and anti missionary rabbis. Quite a title you got. There any anything else you'd like to? Say about the blog. Or your future plans as we just kind of wind things down here.

Troy Salinger: 
I would also encourage people to. Read my three-part article on the Kingdom of. It it it lays out the biblical references to the Kingdom of God, and then I answer a lot of the objections that are raised based on the passages that make it seem like the Kingdom was established at the time of Jesus, or that the Kingdom is spiritual or in you know inside of us or something. There are few passages that would appear to say that you know, so I give answers to those in part three of that series.

Sean Finnegan: 
Very good. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk with me today.

Troy Salinger: 
Thank you, Sean. I appreciate.

Sean Finnegan: 
Well, that brings this. Interview to an end. What did you think? Would love to hear your thoughts. Do you agree with Troy Salinger? Do you think the Kingdom got postponed? Or do you think something else was going on in these eminent sayings of Christ as well as John the Baptist that we find in the? Gospels you might. Even find some in Paul in the Book of Revelation too. If you really look. Come on over to Restitutio org and find episode 524. Kingdom postponed and leave your feedback there. Someone wrote in who preferred to remain anonymous, saying thanks for all your videos online about the one true God. Very helpful for people like me who arrived at this conclusion through their own study, and yet who now feel kind of alone in the General Christian Church, which wouldn't hesitate to slap the heretic label at me without much thought. She goes on. I've listened to several explanations from various Unitarians online of Thomas's response in John 2028, and they are usually something along the lines of Thomas just recognized that God was in Christ, or some will say something like Thomas recognized the Lord and the God of his Lord. And that's it, without saying much else. For some reason, these weren't satisfactory with me, and I struggled with this first for quite a while. She goes on to lay out her explanation as follows. She makes the point that the resurrection, which was the key event everyone was testifying to Thomas about, involves 2 individuals, not only the one raised but the one who raised him. So God and Christ, and she lists some verses on that. And then this is what she says, she says. So when Thomas believed that Jesus rose again. He recognized the two involved in the Resurrection, Jesus and God, My Lord and my God. But I don't know. I find this explanation pretty compelling as it fits the context and it's Scripturally founded. Just curious if you think it has credence or see any issues with it that I may have missed. Well, thanks for writing in the text reads, Thomas answered. And this is John 2028 Thomas answered him, my Lord and my God now when now when. John, the Gospel writer, says him it's a singular personal pronoun. I don't think it really works to say there are two referred to. In this statement, my Lord my God, because it says he answered him and it would say he answered them, although maybe you could get around that to some degree. You could say, well, you know, he answered him, my Lord, my God, saying my Lord to Jesus and then my God to someone else. That's a little, I don't know. I think that seems a little strained. I think it makes a little more sense that both my Lord and my God apply to. This, and I don't think calling Jesus God necessitates the full blown 4th century consubstantial Co equal Co eternal definition of what it means to be a person of God in a trinitarian sense. OK and I think. Have you listen to the show? Know that there are lots of different ways that Jesus could be understood to be God that don't infringe on the supremacy of the Father God Almighty. The sole creator of the heavens and the Earth. And so I think it is a little bit strained, a little bit difficult to apply, my Lord to Jesus. And then my God to the father in John 2028. I think it makes a little more sense to either go with a representational idea that because Jesus represents God, he can be called. God, he can be called Lord and it can be called God in the sense that he represents God in the sense that Moses is called God and in the sense that the judges of Israel are called God, and even angels who also stand in and represent and give messages are called God. Or it could refer to the discourse at the Last Supper, where Philip and Thomas and so forth were there, and Jesus was trying to explain how God dwelt in him and how both God and Christ, which dwelt in the believer via the spirit after the crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension. That after the Ascension there would be a descension if I could put it that way, where Christ would dwell in his disciples and not leave them orphans. So it could be referring to that discourse because that canonically, from the perspective of the Gospel of John, was the previous section of dialogue prior to the. Arrest, crucifixion and resurrection. So. But then there is also. As I kind of alluded to a minute ago, the idea that Jesus is a God, because that's just what you call an immortalized human being. Someone who comes back from the dead and can pass through walls and is not able to die anymore just is a God in the 1st century world, the Mediterranean world of the 1st century. That's just the word they would use to describe such a being. It does not mean that the being is not also a human being. And there is no conflict with this lower case G sense of the word God and the humanity of Christ, you know, so you don't need a dual natures doctrine to explain it or anything elaborate like that. This is just a naming convention. The title God or the category of A God, Lower case you God just applies to anyone. That has defeated death and who lives in heaven. So I'm a. Little less prone to take that view just because I read Thomas as a person with a Jewish perspective. But these divisions are not so neat and clean as we would like. There's a lot of Hellenism around in Judea, in Galilee, in some area. And so it's entirely possible that Thomas can be using some sort of Greco Roman. Terminology to describe something that's unprecedented within within Judaism. I also wanted to mention that I've been hard at work on my Kingdom journey book, which is forthcoming under contract with whiff and stock, and we're trying to finalize the the indices, the cover the endorsements. And I didn't want to just read out to you some of these endorsements. So I'm actually really excited about the endorsements that I got in from this book. Many of you will know. Oh, Joe Martin. He was a professor at the Atlanta Bible College, then became the president of ABC during part of the time when I was teaching there. And so he wrote. I greatly appreciate and recommend Sean Finnigan's book Kingdom Journey with a fantastic review of Kingdom theology and church history from the church. Fathers to the middle. Pages to Weiss and Schweitzer to Ladd and right, the author tells of his journey concerning the Kingdom, with a practical emphasis on family life, Church leadership, mission work and diligence study. Finnegan is an excellent guide through his life story, through his education, and through Scripture to lead us into a clearer picture of the practical real Kingdom of God. That Jesus and the prophets focused on. Keegan Chandler, author of the God of Jesus in Light of Christian Dogma as well as Constantine and the Divine Mind, recently guys PhD from the University of Cape Town in South Africa. Congratulations, doctor Chandler. He wrote an endorsement for the forthcoming book, saying a captivating. Quest for the unsung message of the historical. Jesus, a gospel of earthly restoration rather than heavenly escape. And a Clarion. Call for the rediscovery of its meaning for the Christian faith and life, Sean Finnigan's exploration of not only what was lost, but how it was lost and how to retrieve it marks a step forward in the earthly turn of Christian eschatology. Now I've got two more for you. James D Tabor, who was a professor of Christian origins at the University of North Carolina. You may know him if you've done any work on the Dead Sea Scrolls. He was one of the early scholars that worked. With them, he. Also, interestingly enough, was a major advisor during the Waco crisis when the. FBI was negotiating with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. And so he's kind of famous for that. So he's done a lot of historical Jesus stuff as well, anyhow, he said. I read Sean Finnigan's Kingdom journey with keen anticipation, especially given the subtitle a call to recover the central theme of scripture. His work is one of the rare attempts to recover the very Jewish core of the message of the historical Jesus. Indeed the gospel. Or good news of the Kingdom of God. The simple phrase in the Lord's prayer. Let your Kingdom come that. Is let your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. The concrete realization and manifestation of the Kingdom or rule of God on Earth is indeed the central theme of scripture. Shawn Finnegan demonstrates that most clearly covering all the issues in an exceptionally engaging but sharply analytical style. Indeed, this message has the potential to revive the gospel message in a way that can. Transform the world. Well, he makes it sound better. Than I even thought I thought. It was and then last but not least, Jay Richard Middleton, professor of biblical worldview and EXO. Jesus at Northeastern Seminary that's in Rochester, NY not too far from me, powerhouse in the field, he writes in this intensely personal yet thoroughly research book. Sean. Megan invites us to join him on a journey of exploration to discover the authentic biblical vision of the Kingdom of God and why it matters. Interweaving his own story with biblical exposition and historical investigation, fitting and challenges the reader to embrace God's marvelous plan to transform this broken world into the new heavens and the new Earth. So anyhow, you're so excited about this project coming to fruition, I think it will be available in the spring sometime, so not available for any kind of holiday presents if that's what you what you were thinking. But yeah, stay tuned for more about it. I'm really excited about it. I think these are really, really solid. Endorsements. I'm really, really thankful to Joe Martin, Keegan Chandler. James Tabor and J Richard Middleton, who really just went out of their way to read the book, offer these thoughtful comments. None of them were paid they. Were all just. So gracious to do this, and I'm just really so overwhelmed and thankful that they're helping me to get my start. As a published author, because let me tell you, it is not easy. It is a flooded market. It and publishers don't even really want to look at you unless you can prove you can sell so many thousands of books. And that's really hard when you haven't written one yet and you don't know who's going to buy it or what's even possible. So stay tuned for more about the upcoming book. Obviously, I'm very excited about it. I do have a cover. But I don't think I can really share that yet. We're still tweaking it with the graphic designer and I'll let you know more about that as I'm able. But anyhow, thanks everybody for tuning in. We'll catch you next week if you want to support this ministry, you can do that at rest of studio.org. See you next time. And remember the truth. Has nothing to fear.