This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 518: Tried to Believe in the Trinity... with Rick Naviello

This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode.

Sean Finnegan: Hey there, I'm Sean Finnegan. And you are listening to Restitutio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today.

Sean Finnegan: We've all heard plenty of stories of Trinitarians who began questioning their received teaching and eventually become Unitarian. However, today, we're bringing you a story that's a little. My guest is Rick Navier LLO, who held a biblical Unitarian view of Jesus for decades before attending evangelical churches and really trying to believe in the Trinity. He did everything he could to convince himself it was true. He met with pastors, he studied the Pro Trinity Books and he really. Tried to conform to mainstream Christian expectations. He thought he had conceded. Until. Well, I don't want to give away the punchline, but let's just say he's more convinced of his biblical Unitarian faith now than ever, and church history was involved. That's all I'm going to say. So here now is Episode 518 tried to believe in the Trinity with Rick Navian. Welcome Rick to restitutio. So glad to talk with you today. Thanks for joining me.

Rick Naviello: Thank you, Sean, for having me. I appreciate the invitation.

Sean Finnegan: So your story is a little different. You had grown up as a Unitarian and a biblical Unitarian, believing in just the deity of the father, and that Jesus is the Messiah, human Messiah. And then you decided to take an extended tour into the Trinity and to. Research it and learn about it. You really tried to believe in it. Tell me about why. You did that what was going through your head?

Rick Naviello: Just to back up a little bit, there was a time in my life in my early childhood where I was raised Roman Catholic, although for my adult life, yes, I was Unitarian from the time I turned 18. I went through the I call them the three C's of the rights of being Roman Catholic, the confession and the Communion and confirmation process. Recited the Creed every week. The Nicene creed. They called the apostles Creed. I remember it. A lot of it to this day still in my head. At the time I didn't know what it was saying, came to find out later what exactly what all that was about. I do recall a time when I was, I don't know, maybe 10 to 12 years old. I was sitting in our grandparents dining room. We're having a. Spaghetti dinner. I guess it was. And we did that occasionally, and my grandmother had a picture of Jesus. And. And I think that this is a familiar to many people. It's the one where it's assumed he's in the garden of Gethsemane, praying to God, looking up with the light shining down from heaven. And I was staring at it rather intently, and I remember my grandmother distinctly saying. You know how that is. And before I can say anything, she answered the question. That's God you're looking at. I was thinking about what she said and I don't think I expressed it, but I definitely thought it and the question I asked myself was, well then who's he praying to?

Sean Finnegan: You say you were 10 years. Old when you asked that.

Rick Naviello: It was around that time. Yeah, it's 11:50. I can't pinpoint. The time.

Sean Finnegan: So great question.

Rick Naviello: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I think at the spells, a lot of things. So that's where I was as a young child when I was 18 years old, I got involved with a Unitarian organization called the Wayne International, and I was involved with that for many years. So when the question was posed to. Me that Jesus Christ has not. Not, of course. My response, of course, is not it. That whole idea was very foreign to me. Even being in a Roman Catholic setting, there's a lot that happened in those 31 years that I was involved with that organization. I don't want to get into all that now and was involved with the way core I was a leader for many years. But for reasons that hit us very personally, profoundly personally, back in 2017, I believe it was we decided to part ways. With the. International and but we didn't go anywhere. We just kind of were drifting out in the open. But for a while. And during that time I felt fear the constraints were taken off because while you're with them, you don't look anywhere else. Basically, you're supposed to just keep yourself fed with whatever's coming out from their central location. We looked at other Unitarian organizations, and the only biggest ones I could find, of course, were Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons. And those are a little bit controlling. I found out, but. And interestingly enough, during that time I was in this prayer state where I was desiring to get back and into kind of the mix of things spiritually with the Bible, I was out on a walk in our neighborhood and I see these two young gentlemen get out of a car and they have the white button shirt with the black slacks and the tie. And I shouted out across to them or. You guys Latter Day Saints. And he said, yeah, how do. You guess you know and I said, OK, well. Look, we proceeded to walk through neighborhood and we're talking about a lot of things. I'm. I'm complementing them. What they're doing, they're young men in their early 20s, maybe who are doing something for God and I and I thank him for that. And then it came to a point where I was asking him, OK, I know you're not. We're not here to talk about what I'm talking about. I think you want to talk about what you want to talk about. So that began the. The introduction to their faith, so to speak, and they invited me to read the Book of Mormon and I. Was like OK. I'll give you a shot. So just a quick quick story on that. After several visits from them over the next couple of months, I read about 1/3 of the Book of Mormon, the strong sense that I got from it was that it? Made-up their stories that it came from golden plates from heaven and the Maroni Angel, our messenger from God gave it to Joseph Smith. But anyway, so we parted ways. I didn't find that it was compelling, but it's a great story if you know anything about it. It's a fantastic story. If it was true. Moved on from there. Took a step back. Don't know what exactly, but I began to realize that most of the Christian world, what percentage it is is based in Trinitarian doctrine. No matter what branch of Christianity, whether it's from Catholic or Protestant or Methodist or evangelical Christianity. So I began to ask other questions. So how can so many Christians be so wrong? On such a huge topic, if it is wrong. What's the catch? Why are they holding to this doctrine? This theology began to get into a little more why it's so popular, how? Does it work? I started looking at messianic cues. Jews for Jesus, surely they wouldn't be holding to the creed, they'd have Jewish background, that's blasphemy. But I would go on their websites and that's their statement of beliefs and they are on board. So there you go. There was a video I watched of a couple of gentlemen. The title of it was. Jesus, man or God, it's like ohh. Maybe this is it. Maybe they have something that's Unitarian. This sounds. That sounds kind of controversial. And I watched it. There were scholars. It's a kind of popular messenger. His name is Amir Sarfati, and he interviewed a doctor, Seth Pastel. I guess is somewhat renowned in that world of Messianic Judaism. But the interview was all about the Christophanies real testament. And the proof texts of how. How Jesus appeared throughout the Old Testament in Genesis and Exodus and onward, but it ended with a capping in Romans chapter 10. Versus 9 and 13 where as you know it says if we confess that Jesus as Lord and then the verse 13 it says those who call on the name of The Lord shall be saved and they tie that verse back to Joel 232. And then that it's Yahweh. So they used that tight end to say when you confess, Jesus says Lord. It means you're confessing him as you. And they were giddy about it. They're like, oh, look what we found. They were very happy to present this research that got my attention. I'm like, oh, boy, am I in trouble. You know, even the Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Jews are credits. And just a side note, there are short while ago this last year's 2022 UCA conference, Doctor Jerry, presented something on that exact 6 scripture on the Romans 10/9 and 13 recontextualization of Joel 232. I have to go back and. And watch and listen again, but I thought. There's a very telling looking at it from a Hebraic lens rather than through the Greek philosophical lens, which is the mistake of the ages. So the that awareness drove me even further and deeper with more urgency to get a move on this. So that's where I started to purchase books. There's. Simply Trinity, which you know, I thought I'd start there because it goes back to the basics. Apparently. Then there's Matthew Barrett. And then there's the Trinity and introduction by Scott Swain. I guess an associate of Matthew Barrett and then this is a more of a scholarly, apparently used for a graduate level students. The quest for the Trinity. This one was weirder, but if you don't mind, I like to cite some of the samples that I prepared had of these books. This is from simply Trinity. When we talk about the Trinity or simplicity of God, the one who is simple or simply Trinity, we mean something far more intrinsic to the very being of our trying God himself. When we say God acts as one, we assume he is one since his very nature or essence as one. He acts as one. Not merely cooperating, but performing a single act. That accords with the triune God single will. Yes, there are three persons, but since it is the same divine essence, subsisting in each, these three persons always perform the same act. Well, that sounds pretty neat. So this one is from the Trinity and introduction. There is nothing that the father is that the son and the spirit are not except for being the father. There is nothing that the son is that the father and the spirit or not, except for being the son. And there is nothing that the spirit is that the father and the son are not except. For being the spirit. So yeah. Wow. That's a neat concept, but is it based on Scripture? And then the quest for the Trinity? This got into a lot of the origins with with the church fathers. This is from Gregory of Nazianzus. So it says we have. We have one God because there is a single God head. Though there are three objects of belief they derive from the single hole and have reference to it, they are not sundered in will or divided in power. You cannot find there any of the properties inherent in things divisible. The Godhead exists, undivided in things divided. It it is as if there were a single intermingling of light which existed in three mutually connected Suns, SUS. So again, wow, a lot of brain power that comes with that section of of thought. So I I took this all in. I tried it on. I tried to make it work in my head and. The the point was that I I. Wanted to see if I can trace this back. So I started kind of. Burden time, you know, made 500 or whatever and worked my way backwards after this point. So I looked up certain works on church fathers on the incarnation by Athanasius, but a little bit of origin, of course he was. Yeah, kind of back and forth, I guess. Then I read Justin Martyr at the works. All the works. The the apologies, the the dialogue with triffo the there's other works where he condemns, I guess, Greek mythology as well up to the. A lot of them. And I just want to pull this little excerpt out of the dialogue with Trypho, and this is Justin speaking. And I said as he was trifle, I shall come to these proofs which you seek in the fitting place. But now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ. Is called both God and Lord of hosts. So OK, so there's there's more there and it is rich with that all throughout that very long work, that part there, the dialogue dialogue with triple it is lots of language even there's regard for Plato I find in that particular work as well I think. It was said of Justin that he said of Plato regarded him as most holy. Plato, I think I read in one one place, but so a lot of mixing going on at that time. So we also as part of this effort along with me studying these online things that I got for the church. Fathers, I convinced my family, my wife, that we should attend a church, a regular evangelical church, so we we we did that and we built in full bore, started attending weekly. I shut off all familiar sources of theology that I was familiar with, coming from Unitarian background. I didn't want to hear any of it. I wanted to give this a full, honest shot anytime I went into the church, and of course it's almost weekly. They bring up the Trinity or the deity of of Jesus. They had it. Most, if not all weeks, whether it's in the prayer or whether it's part of the teaching, or they insert it. Usually was to head past their teaching at this church. Also, we started to have a small group in our home with church members because we wanted to make connections. I wound up being the appointed leader that they were forming new groups and they did it in a way that was where all new people met together at the church every Sunday in big meetings. Then you broke down the smaller meetings and then at the very end, you get to choose who you want to have your. Group with so. We started meeting in at our house and over the course of time it was decided. They all point at me as being the one that should. Be the. Leader. So I didn't want to do that. That wasn't my intent. It was just to form relationships with people, make connections. I almost joined the worship team as a drummer. I have a little drumming ability, so I wanted to put that to use, but it didn't quite work out. So I was going all in. I I wanted to be part of The Who wrote the pastors and said, hey, I have a background. As being a minister in some regards. So there's something I can do for you help out with stuff. I was on board. I didn't hear back from them. But anyway. So I was putting myself out there.

Sean Finnegan: Well, let me let me. Pause you just for a moment. When you read these quotations earlier from these three books describing and explaining the Trinity, this was during the same period that you were going to the church or this was. Before you went to the church.

Rick Naviello: This was when we started. Have already started going to the church. These books here in particular.

Sean Finnegan: OK, so having read these books you found them convincing.

Rick Naviello: I found I wasn't making judgment yet on them. I didn't understand a lot of it. I was kind of keeping an open mind about.

Sean Finnegan: So I'm just curious, like as you're going to this church, are you thinking to yourself, I have a worked out theory or model of God that makes sense and is consistent? Internally, and I'm comfortable with exegesis in light of any texts or whatever, or if you were just sort of like hoping that with time this would all make sense.

Rick Naviello: I think I was in more of the second category where I wasn't convinced. Of the doctrine of the Trinity, I was learning it to see how it works and if it did indeed makes sense biblically exegetically then I was willing to believe it, but I wasn't there. Yet in my mind.

Sean Finnegan: All right. All right. Please continue.

Rick Naviello: Thank you. Part of being a life group leader was the life group leaders met with or the pastor who was over the life. Group leaders met with the life group leaders periodically, and I met with him. The initial meeting lasts about an hour. Just basically get to know each other. How do you feel, how it's going? Any questions? And at the end of that meeting, I intended to let him know. And I did my background that I came from a Unitarian background. I at the time I was struggling to understand the deity of Christ. And I told him what I was doing. I was reading books. I. Was studying. Church Fathers and the first thing out of his mouth, and I guess this is. A common response when one goes to a Trinitarian. Especially a pastor. He said, well, if Jesus isn't God. And only God can take away sin. Then we're still in. Yeah. And in my mind, I'm thinking, well, he was the sacrifice percent. So he was the end sacrifice and all sacrifices, the one. So in my mind, I'm thinking so. So all the animals in the Old Testament became God, I don't know. I was still kind of struggling with with things like that. That was the first answer. And he was a great meeting. He was not judgy. Maybe some years ago I would have been kicked out. I don't know, or even doubting the Trinity. But he was very respectful and kind and endeavour to help me understand things. So I met with him a little further, maybe a month or so after that. And he wanted to meet specifically. To talk about theology, as you put it, the topic of the Trinity. So I don't remember much about that meeting. I didn't write a whole lot down, but it was a lot of basic things about Jesus, like the hypostatic union and the teenagers eternal generation.

Sean Finnegan: I can't believe he did that.

Rick Naviello: That kind of things like.

Sean Finnegan: A lot of times the eternal generation is sort of. Like the uncle, nobody talks about. To his credit, I think is is great. I mean, if you're going to believe in the Trinity, might as well get into eternal generation.

Rick Naviello: Yes, it the meeting ended and he told me himself he didn't really fully understand it either. He's just going along because that's what the church believes, he said. What helps him understand the concept of the journey of God being wanted existing in three persons is that if you think of it like a a family, a family is a unit. The family consists of three persons, father and mother, and then a child that makes a family. So to him that helps conceptualize and understand the Trinity. But it's really not a one to one comparison and I kind of knew it at that time too, but it helped him understand. So that's that's how the meeting ended. So it didn't have a whole lot, I feel, to contribute to convince me of that. But I still, I carried on. I moved on.

Sean Finnegan: Well, you weren't resistant or combative, right? You were more trying to find a way to make this work because you were happy at this.

Rick Naviello: We we like going, it's a big church, about 500 attendees per service. They have to every Sunday. We like the teachings because they were very specific kind of a gut or honesty check. Very strong message to live a life of Christianity. Of being a Christ follower, they were pretty serious about it, so I I kind. Of craved that too. Anyways, to correct me and to make sure I'm aligning up with scriptures, but then every time the journey was brought up kind of like, you know, I'm still kind of nervous ticking because it was one of those things still is so embedded in my mind. And my wife patiently went along with me and and during this whole process, she never thought she was stalwart on what she knew. She was raised in the. International. And so to her, there was nothing to question so, but she kind of allowed me to to do this, to sort it out. So yeah, we were happy going there for the most part. So yeah, the prayers. They were interesting because sometimes when their pastors up on stage praying it would be, you know, the part of the Trinity they're praying to, they would switch in mid prayer and seems father. Thank you for this and that that you came down and died on the cross. And so yeah, so. Part was still a problem for me, but there was time to I would find myself even defending Trinitarianism at times with my wife, so we have a lively discussions. I was kind of an apologist, trying to understand. I was trying to understand still. Giving her the. Shot I don't have to understand it all. But if I can see that it went all the way. To the beginning. Then I'm. I'm open for that. Moving on later. We were on vacation and we're driving somewhere and my wife still fully aware that I'm on this journey, said hey, do you want to while we're driving? Listen to a podcast on church history. I'm like, OK, you found. To go play it. And it started coming out. And then the the familiar best of studio. I'm sure you. Knew that came on. I was like. Wait, no. And I knew about your podcast. My brother-in-law had introduced me to it a couple years ago, but again, I I was shutting off all low Unitarian access into my brain. So I said turn. It off. I don't want to hear it yet and this is where it gets interesting. After that it was sometime after that where? I was nearing the end of my search as far as early church history myself and and works that are still afterwards is incredible and the two left that I was planning to leave was first Clement and to dedicate. And first Clement, I'm like reading this and this is like probably late 1st century, right? Maybe early 2nd a a direct kind of trainee of the Apostles. And meeting and there's nothing there that's calling out Jesus says God or eternal, and as a matter of fact, very separate, very subordinate, 42 versus one and two that the gospel that we receive climate and talking to the Corinthians we receive from the apostles. Who received it from Jesus? Christ, who received. It from God. So you can see definitely a an order, a cascading order descending from the father, and then in chapter 50, verse two, it's the only time that I coupon where the triad in a sense is mentioned throughout the entire book of 60 or so chapters it mentions God. The Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit the same verse, but not in the sense that they're the same. It doesn't even say Father. It says God, Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, and then the decay. This was the clincher, Jesus Christ. Just the servant of God. That's it. There is nothing there. In that short work, albeit, but it still very early work, Jesus Christ has been demoted as the servant of God in the sense.

Sean Finnegan: And we actually find that in the book of acts as well.

Rick Naviello: Yes, exactly right. So if it's worth.

Sean Finnegan: That same phrase that the servant of God, yeah.

Rick Naviello: Yeah. And so I thought this is this is good enough for me. I'm done. So all that, all that noise reading all these books. Going through these early church history writings of the church fathers. It was, it was gone. Silence. I had enough. I was satisfied in my quest. Now it's time to rebuild what I had taken down, and then I was ready. I was ready to look at different sources of of, of Unitarian theology. And that's where I began listening and watching the early church history series. And it was episode 7, but I was gripped. It was gripping. This was our nightly TV watching. We were doing away with any anything else. This I was happy and and very satisfied to to watch these presentations. And what did it for me? All that was convincing. But what was the the very. Last clincher I guess, was Philo of Alexandria. The Hellenistic Jew, who lived around pre first the little 1st century 20 BC I think the 4080 so predated Christian, so he's over there. Egypt a philosopher trying to bridge Greek philosophy, usually Plato with the Bible.

Sean Finnegan: That was the name of the game. In those days. I mean, if you were doing scholarship, that's what you were doing, you. Were trying to take the leading. If I could call it scientific view of the world and how the world works and and how the world began and and how to lead the good life, which at that time is Plato, they call it middle Platonism. And and you're trying to work that into your own stories, your own perspective that you're coming from as a Jewish person, that would be, you know, the books of Moses, the Old Testament, but especially. The Torah he's trying to make those two things fit together. That's something.

Rick Naviello: It is. I was quite appalled by by that that this was like what you're saying, a thing bridging something that's definitely Pagan origins with the monotheistic Bible. It was alarming to me that it it seemed he he's the one. Maybe that not coined the phrase, but identified the. Told us as the only begotten son, and then this piece that I think this was the quote that you had posted on there. It says that in the same manner. God of being his own light is perceived by himself alone, nothing, and no other being, cooperating, or assisting him of being at all able to contribute to pure comprehension of his existence. But these men have arrived at the real truth, who formed their ideas of God from God of light from light. And being a Roman Catholic, anybody who is familiar with the creed. Those words are almost for. In the creed. And to me, that was like, did they steal that from Philo and put it in the Creed? I just was fascinated by that. Because did you have a direct influence on those early church fathers? And it it begged the question and to me that was enough evidence that. Almost like a smoking gun. That this is a one of many, I'm sure. Yeah, I also thought should follow be a a posthumous contributor to the Creed. We're fathers, teachings and other Greek philosophical ideas like narcissism, so prevalent in the late 1st century that. John felt the need to write things like I I look, look at the the prologue of, of the Gospel of John. And calling the word God the logos and the word was God. Later it says the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and that's the Trinitarian proof text. Here it is right? But I don't think that follows. Logos became flesh. So in agnostic thought that heavenly beings divine beings cannot be flesh. But Jesus. Was definitely flesh. And I'm thinking this is John's point taking the concept of the logos, which was so prevalent. And correctly applying it to the gospel message, since they're passing this around anyway, it seemed that yes, he was flesh. He became flesh. He is the word of God. He represents God. But he became flesh. He started at a certain point. As Jesus Christ, the son of God. So it's just kind of an initial thought I had. But but one of the things that one of the great things that I enjoy being getting involved with the Unitarian movement is very specific statements like John 17 three where it says you father are the only true God. And I think of that. As an epic state. And I say epic statement. I'm involved. What I do for work. I'm a a functional tester user representative for helping to build software. It's agile, is a methodology that's used in project management for building software and to help organize. The program and keep it moving. There's what's called an epic state and basically what the business needs to. Awkward to do. So everything has to fit underneath this broad, overreaching epic statement, and I think of John 17 three as that in regards to Jesus Christ and all things God that even Jesus said you father are the only true God. The father is God alone. So everything's got to fit underneath that big overarching concept. And So what I'm left with here is the question that I asked myself back in my grandmother's dining room. Who's he praying to? Who is he praying to? I guess to wrap up here, you know I I intend to to continue doing things. I know there's other resources out there I'd like to investigate and dig out this biblical archaeology, remove the layers of sediment. That have become the Orthodox Christian landscape, and that's what people see. But if you peel away the layers, you peel away all. These things that have been layered on have been baked in that have reached a critical mass. I was listening to a podcast yesterday from Dean Cain where he went over why his Trinitarian so mainstream I think was back in February, but he used that idea of critical mass to reach critical mass and it's there. It's it's. It's not going to go away because it's so prevalent. So one has to have a desire and intent to get in and and dig away. And once you see it, it's like. You know, pulling. Back curtain. It doesn't exist way back when when you look at the bottom instead of before, yet through the Greek philosophical lens, yeah, you're you're going to find stuff that would fit within that. And I think as you said, the grid, if you put the. Fight over of the creed over the Bible. You can make it fit. However, if you look at it through the break lens, the customs and the the terminology and the figures and the as it was written and as was understood by the Hebrews who wrote the Bible, then it makes sense. Then these things fall into place and you know which one is the true way. To look at the Bible. Or a post kind of Greek philosophical backwards, or look at it from how it was written. And I think there's a lot to learn there in that regard. I love what you're doing. I love what the CIA is doing. That's a cause. And get behind. I did walk away from, I believe it was my calling years ago as a leader in Christianity. And I didn't have anything to fall back on at the time. I didn't know. So I do want to help promote and grow this. Movement this alliance. And whatever I can do, I don't. Know what that? Would be but, but it's a truthful cause that I can get behind and help move forward that journey. I think I learned a lot. I think I could use a lot of things that I experienced in my mind that I can put the work in a good, good way that's that's useful. To promote Unitarian, I think we exchanged one over emails. That was, you're ready for reformation, that it's time for that. And you know, these days, maybe there's not a castle door to mail the thesis too. We we have a gagillion of them in the form of the intern. That just how can we make the most noise to get attention to grab people's attention, to see that there's there's options out. There and that survey you sent to me, there are people that don't buy it. They're just going because that's what they do. So hopefully we can get out in front and make some noise.

Sean Finnegan: Absolutely. Let me. Go back to your quest. You did a really interesting reverse quest. Reverse historical investigation. I found that account so fascinating to hear, and what struck me about it, Rick was how strange it was. Like, why were you doing church history? Why weren't you just doing exegesis? Why weren't you just looking at interpretations of verses?

Rick Naviello: Well, I guess I wanted to learn the theology in terms of how it was built and how it is understood by those today. So I felt reading these books. Would help me do that to give it a fair shot not to go from a pure exegetical and I'm not a scholar by any means, so I kind of rely maybe on scholarly works, so I wanted. To see their side. Of the argument completely.

Sean Finnegan: And where these books the three you mentioned, were they mostly arguing from just like logic, or did they? Did they mention a lot of, like, historical figures and say and quotes and that sort of thing?

Rick Naviello: They did, yes, although I would say.

Sean Finnegan: OK, so maybe maybe they kind of like steered you to the direction of, like, hey, let's look at church history some more. I don't know. It just seems like a weird thing to do. I would do it too, but like. Most people wouldn't. So what I'm trying to get at.

Rick Naviello: Is this an idea I had so I followed?

Sean Finnegan: It. Yeah. OK. I remember just so vividly when I was taking a a church history class in my master's program and. The professor was so embarrassed. Because he's like a. I think he was LCMS, although he never said he was Lutheran Church, Missouri, Senate. So like the the more conservative branch of Lutherans, he was some sort of Lutheran, but he seemed like a really conservative fellow and he he went through the lecture on the 4th century and like the the creeds and the the Councils. And it was just like he was visibly uncomfortable. And I remember looking at him and being like. That makes sense. You know, because like. He believes that what they arrived at was true and godly. And then he has, like, the actual historical narrative of the chaos, the backbiting, the politicking, the persecution. There's a real cognitive dissonance there between, you know, this is this glorious truth that sounds so nice when we say it in church and, like, just the insane, ungodly behavior that led to. Produce that.

Rick Naviello: Creed, that's very interesting because Christians were persecuted in the first few centuries by the government, but then Christians were persecuted by Christians after that, after Nisia and Constantine, that the ones who rebelled against the established doctrine were. Yeah. So you look at where the truth is and who has the truth. And it's usually those being persecuted.

Sean Finnegan: So let me ask you about your wife. How did she react when you changed back to believing Unitarianism instead of Trinitarianism?

Rick Naviello: It was not expected. She was like, basically indifferent me. She's like, OK, she was, let me do my thing. The time she was tolerating my little project. And so when I said, I'm ready to go back and let's call the the fellowship coordinators that we were previously attending, we just kind of dropped them for a year. And they're very they're very gracious. The animal for dinner. Said OK, we're ready. Ready. To get back to your home. But but yeah, she was just kind of went along. OK, here, we're doing the next thing.

Sean Finnegan: OK, what's your situation now? Are you are you? Back in the. Way international. Or are you with a different group? Or what's your current situation?

Rick Naviello: I am not back with Wayne International. This group is kind of made-up of those who had been. With the way international, so that's who we are with. It's loosely controlled. It's not this centralized organization, it's it's they let the fellowships do what they want basically. And if you want to go to the website or they have conferences throughout the year at different locations. Then you're free to attend, or not. So we kind of like that set up. But there's a lot of liberties that are not under control.

Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So you you wouldn't want to go back to the more controlling environment because you would come out of that. So you don't want to go back into it, but you do want to have community. So are you able to attend like home church meetings on a regular basis? Well, anything else you want to share about your journey, I I think it's utterly fascinating to hear somebody like try so hard to believe in. The Trinity and not be able to do it.

Rick Naviello: I did. I really tried but in the end got the thumbs down. So yeah, there's nothing really else I enjoy the time to share these things. Hopefully I can. Come up with more. Findings or I'm looking forward to. Getting into more of the podcasts. Not only yours, I listen to others too. The trinities from Dale Tuggy, the biblical Unitarian, Dustin Smith. So all those are enjoyable. Look forward to getting to more into more subjects and and building up a knowledge that I feel is necessary to having this day and time.

Sean Finnegan: Very good. Well, thanks for talking with me.

Rick Naviello: All right. I appreciate it, Sean. Thanks for.

Sean Finnegan: Having me, well, that brings us interview to an end. What do you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find episode 518. Try to believe in the Trinity with Rick Noviello and leave your questions and thoughts there. Well, we got a new review on Apple Podcasts. For KC3273. Wrote under the title long time listener. Love this podcast Sean covers a variety of topics that will get you thinking more deeply about Scripture, theology, and how to live well as a Christian today, I recommend it to all my friends. Well, thanks so much. For that 5. Star rating and very kind review is so encouraging to hear and it really does help. Others to find the podcast when people search. For Christian theology or other keywords that relate to this podcast, the search results will show up. A little higher if. We have more ratings and especially reviews, so thanks so much. Well, I just wanted to let you know that I'll be presenting at the UCA conference on the title, the deity of Christ from a Greco-roman perspective. And I look forward to sharing. More with you about that. Research projects and what I found reading the story of Jesus in light of Greco-roman theology, to answer the question how would converts to Christianity talk about Jesus? And if they said Jesus was God or a God, what would they mean by that? So? I'll be posting that paper shortly, probably very soon, and then I will be putting out that episode. Very soon on restitutio, by the way. Don't know if you know this, but on the restitutio website there is a tab called articles in which I have my more scholarly articles as well as some shorter pieces that are just more bloggy. If you are interested. If you're a reader and if you're looking for properly footnoted resources, that's the place. To go. So take a look at that. Got lots of papers there. I write. I write a minimum of 1 scholarly paper a year and have been doing that for quite a number of years now. Also, I've got two interviews recorded with Andrew Perryman, the British scholar that I'm itching to release, although he doesn't identify as a Unitarian, he lays out a case against the pre existence of Christ in the Epistles of Paul. It's phenomenal and we do 2 episodes. One episode just going through all these different verses that sometimes people use to make a case that Jesus pre existed in Paul's. Missiles and in the second episode we cover Philippians 2, six through 11 and really dig into the meat of what does it mean to be in the form of God or the. Form of a. God, in the context of the 1st century, so stay tuned for that. I can tell you they were amazing interviews. You're going to love this and I can't recommend his book. Now, if it's called in the form of a God, he's doing great work. If you're a theologically minded person who's interested in the whole debate on pre existence and these particular tax, then I I highly recommend getting. This book, well, that's about it for today. Thanks everyone for tuning in. If you'd like to support this ministry, you can do that at restitutio.org. We'll catch you next week. And remember, the truth has nothing to fear.