This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 518: Is There Pre-Existence in Paul with Andrew Perriman This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. 00:09 Sean Finnegan: Hey there. 00:09 Sean Finnegan: I'm Sean Finnegan and. 00:10 Sean Finnegan: You are listening to the Restitutio podcast that seeks to recover authentic Christianity and live it out today. 00:24 Sean Finnegan: My guest today is Doctor Andrew Perriman of London. 00:28 Sean Finnegan: We'll discuss his recent book in the form of a God, which is part of the studies in early Christology series, by width instock. 00:37 Sean Finnegan: The focus of our conversation is looking at this subject of pre existence in Paul's epistles. The question before us is whether Paul taught or assumed that Christ had a literal pre human career prior to his birth. In this interview we'll cover five of the six major texts, including. 00:58 Sean Finnegan: Relations 4 Four first Corinthians 86. First Corinthians 10, four second Corinthians 8-9, and Colossians 150. 01:05 Sean Finnegan: And 16. And then next week we'll tackle Philippians 2. 01:11 Sean Finnegan: Here now is episode 519 no pre existence and Paul with Andrew Perryman. 01:25 Sean Finnegan: Today on Restitutio, I'm speaking with Doctor Andrew Perriman, an associate research fellow at the London School of Theology. 01:33 Sean Finnegan: He's the author of several books, including in. 01:36 Sean Finnegan: The form of a. 01:37 Sean Finnegan: God, which will be our primary focus for today. Welcome to restitutio, Dr. Perryman. 01:45 Andrew Perriman: No, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 01:47 Sean Finnegan: So I thought. 01:48 Sean Finnegan: We'd begin by asking the why question. 01:50 Sean Finnegan: Why this book? 01:51 Sean Finnegan: What were you? 01:52 Sean Finnegan: Hoping to accomplish. 01:55 Andrew Perriman: And the what question is always so much easier. It was, you know, you just pick up a thread somewhere, something sort of dawns on you. You you think you've seen something interesting. 02:06 Andrew Perriman: You pursue it and you sort of pull on that thread. 02:08 Andrew Perriman: And see what comes. 02:09 Andrew Perriman: You know how how far it goes? I mean, you may just break off and doesn't go anywhere. 02:13 Andrew Perriman: Or you actually you may. 02:14 Andrew Perriman: Find you're close to sort of pulling the whole piece of fabric apart the tapestry if. 02:18 Andrew Perriman: You're not careful and then you can. You can get into quite serious trouble, and it would have started with this reading Roy Hoover's article on that expression in Philippians 2. 02:30 Andrew Perriman: Six about, not counting equality with God or something like that. A thing to be grasped. So there we'll, I'm sure we'll get on to that at some. 02:36 Andrew Perriman: Went it didn't look like a loose thread at the time. In fact it, you know, reading the scholarship, it looked like a sort of well integrated well woven into the tapestry. But having read that article, it left a a great big question at the end. And I I think he's got it wrong or at least he got most of it right. But the wrong conclusion was drawn from it. So you start putting on that, you think? 02:57 Andrew Perriman: What? Where? What else comes out with it? What are the threads related to this and loose and worth exploring? 03:03 Andrew Perriman: Rather than being some sort of faith thing, this this whole question of how we we understand Jesus in relation to God is is always there in the background we. So I mean yes, pulling on that thread there was there was probably a broader interest in doing so. The particular line of inquiry. 03:24 Andrew Perriman: Began in a rather sort of accidental way, just out of curiosity. 03:28 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. We'll get on to that, Hoover. 03:30 Sean Finnegan: Article I think it's from 1971. 03:33 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, yeah, it goes back a bit, yeah. 03:34 Sean Finnegan: And into Wright popularized it in the 80s, made it sort of the definitive take. And you had the the gall. 03:41 Sean Finnegan: To question it, good for you. 03:43 Sean Finnegan: We'll come back to that. So let's let's dive into Paul and Pre existence. Your book is focusing on Paul and the subject of pre existence and you talk about Galatians 4/4 early on. It's the verse that says, but when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his son born of a woman born under the law. 04:02 Sean Finnegan: And some people, I guess, allege that this word sent forth ex Apostolo. It implies that the sun lived in heaven and God sent. 04:10 Sean Finnegan: Him to earth. 04:11 Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Why don't you read Galatians 4/4 this way? 04:14 Andrew Perriman: Well, I mean, part of it is that translation, I wonder how much people have simply been misled by the the translation sent forth, which is a sort of rather archaic. We don't we don't normally talk about people being sent forth in our in daily life. I sent my son forth to go to buy something from the shop. We don't say that. We just you get sent off to go. 04:34 Andrew Perriman: Ohh sent off, we sent him off. 04:36 Andrew Perriman: Send forth has this sort of theological ring to it. At some point the X part of the exapostello, which is sort of a sending out, so it would translate sent out rather than sent forth just if we need to sort of retain that. That emphasis somehow that that sort of connected this passage in particular. 04:57 Andrew Perriman: With this idea of God sending forth in in this sort of strong theological sense ascending from. 05:05 Andrew Perriman: To Earth, somewhat to the you know, the disregard of the actual context in Galatians. 05:13 Sean Finnegan: Mm-hmm. So how do you see it then? The. 05:15 Andrew Perriman: Verb is is used widely in in the Greek Old Testament it it's used for all sorts of people who were sent out from it just sort of carries this idea. You're going out from the center to somewhere else. You're you're going out with. 05:29 Andrew Perriman: A mission, Moses is sent out. Prophets are set. 05:32 Andrew Perriman: Doubt. Once you start looking at those and reading those and recognising the the sort of the contextual relevance of this idea that people are sent to, as many people are sent to Israel for a purpose and there's perhaps some idea of being sent out from a place to a distant part or something where the there's a, there's a a journey part to it. 05:53 Andrew Perriman: Perhaps, but that that's relatively unimportant. 05:56 Andrew Perriman: Listen, as soon as you sort of put it in that context, well, that there's no reason at all why we shouldn't read this passage in the same way. But we've already plenty has said about Moses already that Jesus is here some sort of counterpart or is fulfilling something that Moses began or or arguably sort of ending something that Moses. 06:16 Andrew Perriman: Again, so there there's a natural sort of parallel there. And more interestingly perhaps, and though you can't, I don't think you can really pin this down as as you know something that was in Paul's mind, but the the parable of the parable that Jesus tells. 06:32 Andrew Perriman: Of the prophets, the servants being sent to the the vineyard of Israel and then the sum being sent, that language is there. It's in Jeremiah from the day that their fathers came out of the land of Egypt. Even until this day I have also sent out all my slaves the prophets. So that's the same verb sent out. 06:52 Andrew Perriman: To you day by day and early in the morning, I also sent and you know, it's a readily available idea for Paul talking about Jesus mission to the Jews. It's very clear this is not ascending into the world. This is ascending. 07:06 Andrew Perriman: To those who are under the law to redeem those who are under the law, we've heard already that he is an offspring of Abraham. This this is not someone who's come from heaven. This is someone who's come from Abraham and he has been sent to Israel to carry out a task to redeem God's people. Those who are under the law. 07:27 Andrew Perriman: And so on. That's all we need. The the passage doesn't demand this as far as I can see. The only other argument that was sometimes made or the other main argument that sometimes made. 07:37 Andrew Perriman: Is that we we read later that the spirit is also sent out. So you've got the sending out of the sun and then ascending out of the spirit. So you you argue people would argue that well, if obviously the spirit has been sent from heaven, therefore the sun was sent from heaven. Yeah. Clearly the spirit comes from heaven. My argument in the book is actually. 07:58 Andrew Perriman: Because the sending of the Sun comes first and we've got this very strong idea that that others are sent afterwards the the the Apostles and and others. 08:09 Sean Finnegan: Well, that's even what the word, apostle. 08:11 Sean Finnegan: Things right? 08:12 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, it's someone who's sent. So they're carrying on the mission of the sun with the spirit of the sun. Paul talks about the spirit being sent out, because that replicates the mission and the the journey that the sun makes and is now being made by the. 08:29 Andrew Perriman: Apostles. So I think that to me is enough. I don't see any reason to look beyond the immediate historical frame. 08:37 Andrew Perriman: Of Jesus mission to Israel and the continuation of that mission in the activity of the Apostles. 08:44 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, the prophets. 08:45 Sean Finnegan: Are sent. John the Baptist. Was there was a man sent from God whose name was John, right. So none of those cases do we see this as somebody sent from heaven to Earth, just sent by God to the people. That makes sense is like a standard reading. 09:02 Sean Finnegan: Well, let's move on to. 09:04 Sean Finnegan: First Corinthians 86 would that. 09:05 Sean Finnegan: Be all right. 09:06 You have some. 09:07 Sean Finnegan: So first Corinthians 86 says. Yet for us there is one God, the father, from whom are all things, and for whom we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist. I'm just reading from the ESV. 09:21 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, which is the version I use, yeah. 09:24 Sean Finnegan: Which is, you know, it's it's a good literal translation. There is some, I I would have some quibbles here and there, but it's good. 09:30 Sean Finnegan: Enough so the early high. 09:32 Sean Finnegan: Christology people with whom I'm sure you're familiar have argued that Paul is what splitting the schema or somehow adapting the schema here. 09:41 Sean Finnegan: Of Deuteronomy 64 to identify Christ as the Lord, as Yahweh in some sense. 09:49 Sean Finnegan: So do you see? 09:50 Sean Finnegan: That here or what do you see here in first Corinthians 86? 09:54 Andrew Perriman: There's some arithmetic going on. We have one God who is 1 father and one Lord. Now how? What is the relationship between the one father, the one Lord and the one? 10:04 Andrew Perriman: The the the argument, the early high Christology argument is, is that what Paul has done? That he's included the law? Jesus's Lord in the Godhead by in bringing him into the Shamar. Either we're adding one and one together and making one or we are dividing one and making 1 + 1. 10:24 Andrew Perriman: Obviously the the arithmetic is skewed, but you can do that sort of calculation that run that equation if you like either in either direction and my argument is we've already had back in verse 4 effectively a statement of the. 10:38 Andrew Perriman: Are concerning the eating of food sacrifice, so I idols we know that there is no idle in the world and that there is no God but one for although there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many Lords. So now now we get to this Lord's part. So the way his argument going he begins with the Shamar then. 10:58 Andrew Perriman: Recognises that Elise in paganism. 11:01 Andrew Perriman: There are many gods and there are many Lords. So now we we we have to deal with the situation where we we are talking about gods and Lords and then as you you've read the bit he he he affirms that for us as believers in Jesus we have one God the father and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things. 11:22 Andrew Perriman: And we through him. So it's part of this is the question well. 11:26 Andrew Perriman: How is this? 11:26 Andrew Perriman: Argument going and it looks there. It looks to me like once you sort of work that through, you are going from an affirmation of 1 God who is. 11:34 Andrew Perriman: The father to somehow having to deal with the fact that that there is also now one Lord who is a a counterpart. 2 corresponds to the many Lords who are out there in the world and and people have different views as to the relationship between the the gods and the Lords. 11:50 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah, that's really the big question, right, because verse five kind of controls verse 6. 11:56 Andrew Perriman: Yes, I mean the distinction is there. What Paul understood by it is is is hard to say. 12:01 Andrew Perriman: Are these some would say the gods in heaven and the Lords of the gods on Earth, or you have the Pagan gods and you have people like Caesar who self appointed God so that the the idea of a the a divine man type figure. So there are various ways of dealing with that. One of the things you see. 12:22 Andrew Perriman: In the later biblical text, a distinction emerges between God as creator, the God who created all things, and the God who deals with the nations. So you've got a A creation part, and you've got a Kingdom part. If you call it that, or a political part. 12:38 Andrew Perriman: Not that goes on now. In the Old Testament that those they're not really separated out and and and accepted. With this the, you know, in the idea that Israel has a king who potentially is the ruler of the nation, that's actually quite significant. One of the passages that I drew attention to is a is a passage of Philo where he talks about the the two cherubim. 12:59 Andrew Perriman: On the end of the arc of the Covenant, and one of those represents God as creator. 13:04 Andrew Perriman: The other one represents God as the as ruler of the nations, the one governing over the nation. So in that political sphere, so you got this large creation sphere, and this smaller political sphere. And I think you begin to see it in the sort of the more prophetic, apocalyptic literature. 13:24 Andrew Perriman: Where Israel is coming into conflict with the nations in in that scenario where there is a tension where there's a conflict. 13:32 Andrew Perriman: Where there's a. 13:33 Andrew Perriman: Crisis at the political level, these two functions become somewhat separated and I think what what happens with Paul and and really with the whole of the New Testament and it's somewhat anticipated in in the Old Testament is that the simple idea that the judgment with respect to the nations judgment and rule. 13:52 Andrew Perriman: With respect to the nations is delegated. 13:55 Andrew Perriman: To Israel's king or to a Messiah figure, or a son of man figure, or, you know, with whatever you're reading at the time, there are different approaches to this. 14:05 Sean Finnegan: So the the. 14:06 Andrew Perriman: Uniqueness of God as creator of heaven and Earth, which which is all the way through scripture all the way through the New Testament all the way through the. 14:15 Andrew Perriman: The Jewish literature. 14:16 Andrew Perriman: Of the the late 2nd Temple period that's safeguarded, that that's sort of the fundamental of Jewish monotheism that God created all things. 14:25 Andrew Perriman: But in dealing with the crisis that Israel faces, so I go back to the Galatians passage. He's the sun is sent out in the fullness of time. Now, traditionally, we would understand that as sort of some point in the middle of history where where, you know, somewhat arbitrary. 14:46 Andrew Perriman: It happened 2000 years ago. Quite why that was the fullness of time, we're not told. 14:51 Andrew Perriman: I would argue that this reference, this idea of the fullness of time, has to do with the particular crisis that the. 14:56 Andrew Perriman: Jews were facing. 14:57 Andrew Perriman: In in Palestine, under Roman law, so you find similar expressions in the the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's how is God responding to this immediate political crisis of of Israel under Roman occupation? 15:11 Andrew Perriman: Threatened with destruction, which I think Jesus foresee. 15:15 Andrew Perriman: Please quite clearly it well. How does he deal with that? Paul's argument is he deals with it by raising his son from the dead, seating with his right hand in in accordance with some 110, which, which is a very political statement of God giving authority of his to his son as Israel's. 15:35 Andrew Perriman: Being to rule in the midst of the nation. 15:37 Andrew Perriman: And yes, and in principle you all the way back to the Shamar. You could say that that God is both Father and Lord in in a sense to that point. Now that it's not put. 15:48 Andrew Perriman: In those terms. 15:49 Andrew Perriman: But by the time we get to an apocalyptic crisis in the in the New Testament period, an existential crisis for Israel. 15:57 Andrew Perriman: The extraordinary message that the apostles bring first to the Jews and then to the nations is that God is resolving has begun to resolve this crisis through the agency of a crucified. 16:13 Andrew Perriman: And that then becomes the the point at which we grapple with the through whom all things we through him, yeah. 16:21 Sean Finnegan: Right. That's the next question, right, because you you just mentioned that they are safeguarding the Jewish literature safeguards creation for the father alone. So a lot of people will say, well, this through, whom are all things refers to Christ's role in creation. So yeah, please. 16:41 Sean Finnegan: Please comment on that. 16:43 Andrew Perriman: It is creation language, so yes, there's a wisdom story told in in the script. 16:49 Andrew Perriman: There's so well, I mean from proverbs. It's perhaps it you may you know whether it's there right in in the in Genesis. Chapter one I'm I'm not sure but certainly by the time you get to Proverbs 8 you've got some sense of wisdom. They're in sort of very metaphorical terms or sort of the personification of wisdom. 17:08 Andrew Perriman: Being involved in the creation of all things, we don't necessarily have to assume that here. And when we've got a similar language in Romans 1136 where it's very clearly not talking about creation, it's talking about a much more limited set of all. 17:25 Andrew Perriman: So what seems to be going on here? Certainly this is the argument and and the details are in the book, but the the way I understand this is what Paul is saying and and Jimmy Dunn made very similar arguments. I mean, he would be the, the other the, you know, the obvious person to go to him is that the Paul has has picked up on the idea that God creates through wise. 17:45 Andrew Perriman: Them in wisdom, but he's doing a new creative thing here. So this this is an expression of the creative activity of God at this critical moment in Israel's history. So God is bringing about something new and. 18:00 Andrew Perriman: And it is. 18:01 Andrew Perriman: It it is as though this is wisdom doing the same thing again. 18:05 Andrew Perriman: Doing something new again here, certainly in the Colossians passage and and elsewhere in one Corinthians, that's the underlying idea. What I think encourages us to think that way. 18:18 Andrew Perriman: Is the motif of wisdom coming to find somewhere to dwell in the world? We we have John one. So the the word became flesh and dwelt among us in in the Jewish writings we have preceding that the idea that wisdom comes looking for some place as well. 18:38 Andrew Perriman: In I. 18:39 Andrew Perriman: I think it's Ben Sierra and also in in first Enoch possibly somewhere else I can't remember. 18:45 Andrew Perriman: With a couple of sort of very different outcomes and I'll probably get this the wrong way around. But you know in bensia I think wisdom comes looking for a place to dwell in Israel and finds a place in in the form of Torah. So Torah is the embodiment of God's creative wisdom and becomes the basis for a whole society and a whole world in the land in. 19:04 Andrew Perriman: A more pessimistic take on this story in in the apocalyptic text, one Enoch really hope I've got this the right way round. Wisdom comes looking for somewhere to live and can't find anywhere because of the the sinfulness and not even in Israel. 19:21 Andrew Perriman: There's wisdom. Find a place to live, so wisdom goes back to heaven. But at a later stage, wisdom sort of comes back again through the son of man figure, both in John and in Paul is is some in in different ways. You see that idea that the original creative wisdom of God has at last found. 19:42 Andrew Perriman: Somewhere to get traction in the. 19:44 Andrew Perriman: World someone through whom the wisdom of God. 19:47 Andrew Perriman: Confined traction to bring about the sort of judgment and salvation, the sort of transformation that is necessary in order to save something from the crisis and not just save something from God's people, but to bring about something new in the wider world. So it's it's that idea that. 20:07 Andrew Perriman: This one Lord, this one Lord Jesus Christ, he brings in this limited way this creative power of God to bear on circumstances, on on history. 20:18 Andrew Perriman: And we so we have it elsewhere earlier in one Corinthians in the the idea that that he is our wisdom and the one through whom the church has its existence very similar language. And so I think if you put it within the context. 20:33 Andrew Perriman: Of the letter as a whole. 20:35 Andrew Perriman: You can sort of make us very strong case for finding in the crucifixion of Jesus is crucified, Messiah is the paradoxical wisdom. 20:48 Andrew Perriman: Through which God is making something new that seems to me the heart of it. The the wisdom of God has found very oddly this place. To get a grip on history and bring about change through the faithfulness of Jesus that that finds expression ultimately in the cross, and God responds to that. 21:08 Andrew Perriman: By raising him from the dead and giving him all authority and power etc. 21:13 Sean Finnegan: And we'll we'll come back to. 21:14 Sean Finnegan: That as well, once we get to. 21:16 Sean Finnegan: Russians in first Corinthians, there's also a text where it talks about the rock that followed them was Christ. That's first Corinthians 10, verse four, it says, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them. And the rock was Christ. What do you make of this one? He's Paul saying that. Christ. 21:36 Sean Finnegan: Accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness. 21:40 Andrew Perriman: Well, not not in any literal sense. No. So the the argument would be that this is not the sort of normal allegorical interpretation, because it's in the past tense. The rock was the Christ. 21:54 Andrew Perriman: So if if this was nearly an allegory used Paul using the wilderness story as as an allegory for salvation in the his present, we would have the rock is Christ and so on. So, for example, you got in Galatians 4, these women are two covenants. So Hagar. 22:16 Andrew Perriman: Are two covenants in that. So that's how you interpret or you add an interpretation to a story to make it an allegory. You know the early high Christology thing. What they would argue is that it we don't have it in the present tense. This is not an allegorical interpretation. Therefore it must be he must have understood it in a more literal sense the rock was. 22:36 Andrew Perriman: The Christ that the problem with that argument is that the whole that everything is in the past in that passage. So I mean, I don't have the passage in front of me, but the rock was the Christ. 22:46 Andrew Perriman: In the same way that passing through the sea was baptism, these these I think are Aris tenses eating and drinking in the wilderness. These were participation in the Lord's Supper. I mean the the point is Paul is not using this as an allegory. It's it's maybe you could call it a typology, and that whole story. 23:06 Andrew Perriman: Was the equivalent for what you are going through now in Christ the the believers, because there's there's a a sort of a moral point attached to this. You can go through all. 23:15 Andrew Perriman: This gift of God in all sorts of ways, and yet still sin and still fall away and still and still be destroyed as they were destroyed in the wilderness. So he's doing something different there to simply making Jesus some sort of literal presence. In the past. He's not allegorizing. 23:35 Andrew Perriman: That I agree with that what he's doing is is making the Old Testament story work as. 23:42 Andrew Perriman: A foreshadowing with is that one. It's an example of exactly what they were going through in their present. It's a realistic example of spiritual complacency in the wilderness that is a counterpart to the spiritual complacency of the Corinthians. As, as Paul said, so the rock for them was what Christ was a source of of water, a source of life. 24:04 Andrew Perriman: Going through the seed was for them what baptism is for you, and eating and drinking in the wilderness was for them what participation in the Lord's Supper is for you. That's why you've got the past tenses there. Yeah. I mean, it's not a major argument for the pre existence anyway, but it's certainly. 24:20 Andrew Perriman: One. Yeah, it certainly comes up, yeah. 24:21 Sean Finnegan: Comes up. 24:24 Sean Finnegan: So in second grade, the instance we're in Corinthians mode, we have this text in Second Corinthians 8-9 where it says for you know, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24:34 Sean Finnegan: Though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poorer so that you by his poverty might become rich. Paul must mean that Christ existed in heaven, since in his earthly life he was never rich. That's sort of the the argument being made. What do you make of that? 24:50 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 24:53 Andrew Perriman: Part of this is translation. The better translation would be rather than he was rich and became poor, which suggests a sort of a an, an abrupt change. You go from one condition to a completely different condition. You can't be. 25:08 Andrew Perriman: Both the assumptions are you can't be both rich and poor. If you're a rich man and you're not a poor man if you're a poor man, you're. 25:14 Andrew Perriman: Not a rich. 25:15 Andrew Perriman: Man, but the the translator, I think. I mean, I don't have the Greek in front of me, but in in, in English it would read something like he became poor, being rich. So the participle there for being rich allows for the being rich to continue. 25:29 Andrew Perriman: While you become poor, you have something similar, certainly in Revelation 2 in the the letter to the church in Smyrna. I know your affliction and poverty, but you are rich. So you've got the possibility there of a richness of wealth. 25:46 Andrew Perriman: That exists at the same time as affliction and poverty. The language is is pretty much the same. So I think what Paul's talking about in the the two Corinthians 8 passage as an example for believers. So he the the Christ models the suffering part and poverty being primarily A metaphor for. 26:07 Andrew Perriman: The suffering. 26:08 Andrew Perriman: Rather than some sort of existential or ontological poverty in just becoming human, it's it's not. It's it's a it's a figure for suffering. And yet you have all this wealth in the spirit, you sort of rich in the spirit. And this is a theme Paul deals with this a lot in in the. 26:28 Andrew Perriman: The Corinthian correspondence and you, you've got all the. 26:31 Andrew Perriman: This new experience of life in the spirit and the in manifestations of the power of God through. 26:37 Andrew Perriman: The spirit and and yet. 26:38 Andrew Perriman: You, I mean you. 26:39 Andrew Perriman: Can do two different things. With that you can be arrogant and assume that this is, you know, we have arrived spiritually. We've reached the pinnacle of spiritual achievement. 26:49 Andrew Perriman: Or you can. 26:50 Andrew Perriman: Recognize that actually that it belongs to a calling. 26:53 Andrew Perriman: To suffer. 26:55 Andrew Perriman: And and so you make yourself poor. 26:58 Andrew Perriman: While at the same time being rich in the spirit and and that's exactly what it is written to in Revelation 2 to the believers in Smyrna that they can be. 27:09 Andrew Perriman: Rich, but they. 27:10 Andrew Perriman: Are being afflicted. They're having to suffer. They are having to endure. Maybe, perhaps literal poverty because of persecution or. 27:18 Andrew Perriman: Because they are being they become pariahs in their circumstances, in their culture, something that so you know, in simple terms that that's the line I took there. 27:30 Andrew Perriman: It fits his purposes in the context much better as well as in. In modeling, I mean you come to this with the Philippians passage in, in what sense is leaving heaven and coming to Earth? In what sense does that model anything useful for a believer? 27:44 Sean Finnegan: Right, right. That's not an experience I've had. 27:48 Andrew Perriman: No, and you, you still can't go out looking for it either. So I mean, obviously you can, you can do something with it. But I I think it makes much more sense in the context of his, you know what he's writing to the Corinthians as a whole to see this as wealth in the spirit. But at the same time. 28:05 Andrew Perriman: Being willing to make yourself poor or become poor for the sake of God's purposes. 28:10 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I appreciate that. There is so much in the the Greek phrase that's not coming through in the English translation. You know, this participle with an adjective, A substantive adjective paired with this heurist, and we, you know, we don't have a we don't. 28:25 Sean Finnegan: Have a verb that means to make poor. 28:28 Sean Finnegan: Either so like the verb means to become bore, it's not a verb in English to poverties or something, right? So there's a lot going on there and that enables A simultaneity. And I think this is going to come up in our later conversation with Philippians too, right? Let's get to the really interesting text. This will be our last one. 28:49 Sean Finnegan: For this episode, which is Colossians. 28:51 Sean Finnegan: Uh, you do a lot with. 28:52 Sean Finnegan: OK. 28:53 Sean Finnegan: Colossians so if you don't mind. 28:55 Sean Finnegan: Pulling that up, Colossians. 28:56 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, this this is hard. I mean, I regardless of this, this whole quest. 29:00 Andrew Perriman: You know a pre existence. It it's. I didn't find it easy to to look at, but OK, let's have. 29:05 Andrew Perriman: A look at it lightning. 29:05 Sean Finnegan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's have a look. 29:06 Sean Finnegan: At it and I'll just for the sake of the audience, I'll just read it out. Just the first three verses there, 15 through 17 of clashes. One he is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation. For by him all things were created in heaven and on Earth, visible and invisible. 29:26 Sean Finnegan: Whether Thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him, and he is before all things. 29:33 Sean Finnegan: And in him, all things hold together. Correct me if I'm wrong. But you call this text and then come. 29:38 Andrew Perriman: Him. Right. Yes. Well, I mean. 29:40 Andrew Perriman: The same for the Philippians passage. 29:41 Sean Finnegan: Right. Can you explain that terminology a little? 29:43 Andrew Perriman: Bit in simple terms and encomium is a song or a poem of praise about a person, whereas A hymn is some sort of work that he presupposes to some sort of worship context that address to a divine. 29:57 Andrew Perriman: Hey, guys. 29:58 Andrew Perriman: You know, obviously which one you choose depends on how you read the passage. I did come across people who would argue certainly for the Philippians, one that formally in terms of you know the look of the passage, it looks like an encomium. But because we believe that this is talking about the pre existence of Jesus as a divine figure, it must be a him. 30:18 Andrew Perriman: So there's you're seeing already, there's some admission that there's a bit of a contradiction there between form and content. 30:24 Andrew Perriman: That seems to me the simplest way of differentiating there are. I mean people call it other things, a prose poem that doesn't get us very far. That's that's simply descriptive. The question really, I mean, I suppose, is whether it it in some sense has been composed as something in its own right rather than simply in the flow of Paul's. 30:46 Andrew Perriman: Argument in the, you know Philippians or in Colossians. 30:50 Andrew Perriman: What sort of label we might want to put on it, from the sort of rhetorical analysis point of view, isn't that significant, but it might give us some insight into early 1st century Christian practice in literary practice or the surgical practice, or or whatever you might. 31:09 Andrew Perriman: Allow for. If you regard this as a pre written him or in coming from that point of view you you that would explain some of the any disjunction that if it looks like that passage doesn't fit quite as well as we we think it ought to. 31:23 Andrew Perriman: Well, that's because he's taken it from some other context and inserted it here, so we may perhaps we should only expect a fairly limited continuity in the argument. So I I don't, I don't think it's that important. And if you can go back and ask was was this written as an encomium as such or used as an incoming him in. 31:43 Andrew Perriman: Christian liturgical practice at the time. We can't do that, but I don't know what they would. 31:49 Sean Finnegan: Say so. In verse 15 it says that he. 31:52 Sean Finnegan: Is the first born of all creation. What do you make of that? 31:56 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, I I haven't got the the Psalm passage in front of me. The Israel's king is the first one I would probably translate the first born of every creature and and the the. The idea is it's. What is this? I've only I I made some notes and didn't write everything down that I need. And and it's not at the. 32:12 Andrew Perriman: Top of my. 32:13 Andrew Perriman: Head, but I that can be. 32:16 Andrew Perriman: Found fairly easily. The idea that Israel's king was the. 32:21 Sean Finnegan: Oh, the Psalm 8927 says I will make him the first born, the highest of. 32:25 Sean Finnegan: The kings of the Earth. 32:26 Andrew Perriman: Thank you. Well done. Yes, that's the passenger. 32:30 Andrew Perriman: I was looking for. 32:31 Andrew Perriman: Part of the issue here, and this is one of those questions about continuity and context, is what has just gone before. Is an argument about Kingdom. So to make giving thanks to the father who qualified you for a share in the inheritance of the Saints of light, so they they have, they're entitled to a share in some future situation. 32:51 Andrew Perriman: Who delivered us out of the Dominion of Darkness? That's a political term, obviously, and removed to the Kingdom of his beloved son, in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins. So this son, who is being described in these terms as one who has the Kingdom or will have the Kingdom which believers will inherit at some point in the future. 33:11 Andrew Perriman: That arguably sort of sets the tone already for how we read this, and there's a tendency to sort of take it out of context as a little crystallography. 33:20 Andrew Perriman: Piece then you've lost that frame of reference, so then you get first born of every creature, or even for that matter, in the image of the invisible God. Well, that seems to point us back to the Invisible God who created all things, and so and so we supply a a much bigger frame for it than his act than Paul does. And I mean, if this is a pre written. 33:41 Andrew Perriman: And comedy and, well, perhaps that's just. 33:43 Andrew Perriman: Be fine. 33:44 Sean Finnegan: But it would be moot anyhow because the question is more what is Paul doing with it than what was it doing originally, right? 33:44 It's this concept. 33:50 Andrew Perriman: Exactly. At least that that you need to ask that question. 33:54 Sean Finnegan: Yeah. So you're saying the context is about Christ's current situation in heaven at God's right hand, and this exalted what political and religious role. Of course, the ancients didn't really care to separate those two very much, and that when it says the first born. 34:14 Sean Finnegan: It's not talking about first born in time necessary. 34:17 He's talking about first. 34:18 Andrew Perriman: No, not that's that's the payment. 34:18 Sean Finnegan: Born in rank. Yeah, yeah. 34:22 Andrew Perriman: I think you can. You can show that that's clear enough from the use of that language in the Old Testament. The, the It's, it's the point of. I mean, Israel is is God's first of all. It doesn't mean Israel was the First Nation on Earth. It means Israel was the one who the the people that has been elevated to a status in God's eyes. Because this is a chosen people. 34:42 Andrew Perriman: And that perhaps carries with it the same way that the King or David is God's first born among all kings. It's he's elevated to that status, potentially with the idea in view that at some point in the future, vaguely conceived, Israel will be the leading nation, at least in, you know, within the world. 35:03 Andrew Perriman: As they saw it. 35:04 Andrew Perriman: So if if at the time the Babylonians are the dominant empire and the the power to which all the peoples turn or. 35:11 Andrew Perriman: Bring tribute or. 35:12 Andrew Perriman: And and so on. At some point in the future that will be turned around and and Jerusalem will be the centre of the world and the nations will bring tribute to Jerusalem and they will enrich. 35:24 Andrew Perriman: The temple. They will bring their tribute to the temple and they will come looking for wisdom from the law. That wisdom that found its expression in the law will become available to the nation. That idea is important here. I think going off in a little bit of a. 35:40 Andrew Perriman: The question that that stands out here is if this is talking about the original creation, why is there there no reference to beasts of the field or the birds of the air, or the mountains, or the trees, or the rivers? The things that that get created when creation happens. What we have created in him? 36:00 Andrew Perriman: All things in the heavens and on Earth are visible and invisible. So yes, there's some sense in which this encompasses the whole of the the cosmos, the created order. But it's Thrones and Dominions and sovereignties and authorities, and we don't have to define each of those terms. 36:16 Andrew Perriman: Honestly. But clearly they belong to a political discourse rather than to the very familiar idea from Genesis and the Psalms that God creates the stuff of the world and the things living in it. And we we have none. 36:30 Andrew Perriman: Of that here so. 36:32 Andrew Perriman: At least we have to ask, well, what does it mean that this, the one who has become? 36:37 Andrew Perriman: King is elevated to a position of of first born of every creature. 36:42 Andrew Perriman: And in him were created all things, all these political realities, Thrones, dominions, sovereignties, authorities. My argument is that, well, all things through him and for him have been created and his before all things, that all things in him have consisted held together again. We got that wisdom language. I think so there there is a creative event. 37:02 Andrew Perriman: Going on here, but I don't. I don't think this is an old creation, the original creation. This is a new creation. More to the point though, it's a new political reality. 37:13 Andrew Perriman: That, I think is in view and if you think about it, we've got a situation when Paul is writing this or maybe someone else wrote it, we have God in through Jesus in throne in heaven. So you've got a rule in heaven. But on Earth Caesar is in charge or you know. 37:33 Andrew Perriman: These are in his representatives across the Roman Empire. 37:36 Andrew Perriman: So you you have not got. 37:38 Andrew Perriman: You've got a divided rule. God is in one of the Thrones in heaven. Jesus is is seeded. 37:42 Andrew Perriman: With him, however. 37:44 Andrew Perriman: But on Earth we have these Pagan rulers, so there's a a disjunction there. They're not united. They they're not of 1, mind. They're not serving the same end and so on. So I think what's anticipated in this encomium. 37:57 Andrew Perriman: Or whatever we want. 37:58 Andrew Perriman: To call it Psalm type thing is the reunification of rule on Earth and rule in heaven. 38:05 Andrew Perriman: So the authority of Jesus seated the right hand of the Father will be acknowledged on Earth. So I mean here, this is eschatology rather than than Christology in a sense. But this is one of my my basic arguments that we've tried to do our Christology apart from the. 38:25 Andrew Perriman: A story that is unfolding here and has a quite clearly conceived out. 38:31 Andrew Perriman: Which is that the rule in heaven and rule on Earth will be reconciled with each other, and that that's part of what's going on in the second part of this passage and Ephesians as well. I mean, you you sort of bring the two together. I think you get quite a strong expectation that this, the one who is first born of every creature. 38:51 Andrew Perriman: Will finally be confessed as Lord by the nations of. 38:55 Andrew Perriman: The world, as Paul saw it. 38:57 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, I some great thoughts there. I wonder what you think of what you make of the preposition in here at the at. 39:03 Sean Finnegan: The head in verse 15. 39:04 Sean Finnegan: I mean, a lot of translations prefer by taking an instrumental position. Was it Beal who said and is within the sphere of or something like that? Is that? 39:14 Sean Finnegan: How you would take it? 39:16 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, and that that's an interesting thought. I mean, I'm not sure there's any very clear way of resolving those sort of questions. I would translate because in him we're created whether that really captures the thought, one of the, the the issues here, I would argue I think Paul's he's not reflecting on Jesus as as a theologian. 39:36 Andrew Perriman: In another world. 39:38 Andrew Perriman: Whether or not he ever met Jesus that you know as a person we don't know. He was there pretty much in Jerusalem soon afterwards, when the death of Stephen, he's experienced Jesus in either directly or indirectly as as someone who was crucified, but under Rome he encounters the Risen Christ. 39:58 Andrew Perriman: As a I I think as a person. 40:00 Andrew Perriman: But the the whole thing about praying in the name of Jesus, I mean that that that's another Christological, you know? Do we pray to Jesus in the name of Jesus and all those other questions Paul quite always in a very literal sense called out to Jesus as a person in heaven who would act or, you know, intercede on his behalf. There was a very personal part to Paul's relationship with Jesus. 40:23 Andrew Perriman: As someone who had experienced what Paul himself was going through, so a major theme in Paul, I'm sort of groping my way towards what I want to say. Here am major theme in Paul is that Paul is conscious of going through what Jesus went through before. 40:38 Andrew Perriman: For him, the suffering and the potentially dying in the hope of being raised again, and that's, you know, Philippians 3, that I may know him and the the power of his sufferings and and you know he potentially being conformed to his death and experiencing the same resurrection. I I've mangled the passage, but I mean I I think you know the the point is clear. 41:00 Andrew Perriman: And and he. 41:01 Andrew Perriman: Holds out the same thing to others as well. It would be imitators of me, as I am of. 41:04 Andrew Perriman: Yes, you're rich in the spirit, but you have to let go of. Well, not quite. Let go of it. But you use that in the midst of suffering. You experience that in the midst of suffering and and really the gifts of the spirit, the spirit of Jesus giving into your giving to input in your heart is the spirit of the one who Gethsemani cries out ABBA father. Or you have that both in in Romans. 41:26 Andrew Perriman: Ending in Galatians, this is not the spirit of personal fulfillment. This is the spirit of one who suffered and was obedient to unto death on the cross, and so on. So the. 41:36 Andrew Perriman: By him, who created all things, I think it's much more likely that that Paul is still thinking of Jesus as an individual person who's been raised from the dead, taken up to be with the father, waiting for some event in the future, a perusia event when he will. I don't know if Paul literally expected him to descend from heaven. 41:56 Andrew Perriman: In the clouds, but certainly he was looking to for an event when the person who was executed under Rome would be confessed as Lord by the nation. 42:05 Andrew Perriman: And so on. It's not an argument you you can make absolutely, but it as a way of thinking about Paul and his relationship with the Risen Lord. I would assume that throughout his life he that he thought of Jesus in in, in ways that he, some, something he could relate to very personally and I it just seems a bit unlikely then that. 42:25 Andrew Perriman: He would rethink of this Jesus as a. 42:27 Andrew Perriman: Fear in which things were created. That's too abstract. It's too remote from the sort of experiences that you know, the memories of Paul have had, and the experiences of his suffering for Jesus, for me to to sort of be credible. 42:43 Sean Finnegan: OK, so there are some other interesting parallels, for example, 2nd Corinthians 517. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. 42:54 Sean Finnegan: The old has passed away. The new has come or fusions 210 for. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus created in Christ Jesus for good works right. Or you know you have this new creation language. Other places too, right Ephesians. 43:03 Yeah, yeah. 43:11 Sean Finnegan: Created after the likeness of God and true righteousness, Colossians 3 put off the old self, put on the new self which is renewed in the image of its creator. You know we we have this way of talking about the Christian. What experience? 43:27 Sean Finnegan: Or salvation or redemption in a way that uses creation terminology, and it doesn't seem like very many scholars are picking up on this new creation language with respect to cautions 1. 43:40 Andrew Perriman: Yes, it's interesting. Isn't that, I mean, that's an interesting point because yes, what are the reasons for not connecting the two? 43:46 And I mean. 43:47 Sean Finnegan: Your other point about Ephesians one is is very. 43:50 Sean Finnegan: Strong too cause the. 43:51 Sean Finnegan: The verbal parallel. 43:53 Sean Finnegan: Between the end of the fusions one and what we see in Colossians chapter one, verse 15 or so, like where it talks about the the rulers and the authorities and all this, it's almost exactly the same language. And in Ephesians one it's clearly talking about Ascension. 44:09 Sean Finnegan: It's clearly talking about Ascension theology, so if Colossians one is now talking about Genesis creation, it's just like what? 44:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 44:16 Andrew Perriman: No, I I I think that's right. We like the idea that these days of being new creation rather than being souls who have been saved to go to heaven. So we like that much more holistic in body. 44:27 Andrew Perriman: The idea of creation we haven't quite connected that with. I mean that that's become a a sort of an evangelical, you know, fairly sort of safe evangelical position. We haven't sort of connected that with this other sort of strong evangelical position of Jesus as the the pre existent one who was there in creation. So you know maybe that will come about. 44:48 Andrew Perriman: It's an interesting observation. 44:49 Sean Finnegan: Yeah, we'll we'll see well. 44:52 Sean Finnegan: We better draw this episode to an end here. Where can people learn more about you? 44:57 Andrew Perriman: I have a. 44:58 Andrew Perriman: Blog that's probably the the place to go, which is www.postopostost.net. 45:07 Sean Finnegan: What is that post host? 45:09 Andrew Perriman: Yeah, right. It's a very good question and I wish I hadn't come up with it. Frankly, I started blogging, you know, 2002, I think it was very early on. 45:18 Andrew Perriman: I had a thing called open source theology, which was good. I mean, that went on for a while and quite a lot of people engaged with it, but I it got to the point where I thought I was dominating and it was all it it was, it was meant it wasn't open source any anymore. It was. I just wanted somewhere to to do my own. 45:34 Andrew Perriman: Thing so the it's post the open source, the other thing. 45:38 Ohh. OK OK, makes sense now. 45:39 Andrew Perriman: Get it? It's it's it's. 45:42 Andrew Perriman: Well, yeah, it. But it's ridiculous. I I could have come up with something a little, a little less opaque anyway. 45:49 Sean Finnegan: No, that's fine. That's fine. Well, thanks for. 45:51 Sean Finnegan: Talking with me today. 45:53 Andrew Perriman: No, it's fun. Thank you. 45:55 Sean Finnegan: Well, that brings this episode to an end. What do you think? Come on over to restitutio.org and find episode 519. No pre existence and Paul with Andrew Perriman and leave your comments there. 46:07 Sean Finnegan: Would love to read your thoughts. 46:08 Sean Finnegan: Also, if you haven't yet, go ahead and pick up his book. I. 46:11 Sean Finnegan: Highly recommend it in. 46:12 Sean Finnegan: Fact we use it as a giveaway. 46:14 Sean Finnegan: At last week's Unitarian Christian Alliance Conference, giving away a copy of Andrew Perriman's book, it's a little pricey, but it's well worth the cost. Perriman doesn't just give you a basic biblical theology. He's working very much with the Greco-roman sources of the time. 46:34 Sean Finnegan: Looking at both Second Temple Judaism and the surrounding Pagan culture of the churches to which Paul wrote his letters. 46:43 Sean Finnegan: Well, we got some feedback in from last week's episode with Rick Noviello called, tried to believe in the Trinity, Suzanne wrote in great interview with Rick. I've done similarly after being a Jehovah's Witness decades ago, tried hard to prove to myself that the Bible teaches the Trinity. 47:01 Sean Finnegan: I went into seminary grad school two years. 47:03 Sean Finnegan: Ago to give it my all. 47:05 Sean Finnegan: Now, as I'm graduating and wondering if the seminary will refuse to grant me my degree, God has answered my decades long prayers by leading me to this podcast and many other resources to help me see from the Bible what Unitarianism is and the truth of the heritage of the old and new. 47:25 Sean Finnegan: Testaments. I'm so grateful to all involved in the Reformation movement to restore authentic Christianity. Suzanne went on to ask about a presentation that Doctor Jerry Weir will put out on. 47:40 Sean Finnegan: Especially like Romans 10. 47:42 Sean Finnegan: Text where Yahweh is applied to Jesus. 47:46 Sean Finnegan: In the New Testament, and so if you're curious about that, I posted this on the website, but I'll just mention it here at the Unitarian Christian Alliance YouTube channel. You can find their playlist for the 2022 presentations, and jerrys is entitled applying Old Testament Yahweh passages to Jesus, and he goes through and explains. 48:06 Sean Finnegan: How he sees that practice not as identifying Jesus as Yahweh, but as Jesus. 48:13 Sean Finnegan: Bearing the name of Yahweh. 48:16 Sean Finnegan: In his eschatological role as a Messiah. 48:18 Sean Finnegan: Fairly common understanding in scholarship, but sadly not well understood by many today. Also on the rest of studio YouTube channel we got a number of comments in on last week's episode when I can. I'm releasing the interviews that I do here on this audio podcast on YouTube as well, but they're unedited, so they're they're. 48:40 Sean Finnegan: I I encourage you. 48:41 Sean Finnegan: To to check the YouTube version against the audio version, I think you'll be very happy with how spoiled you are listening to the audio version. I tighten everything up and get rid of all the sort of false starts and rabbit trails and whatnot. 48:54 Sean Finnegan: But anyhow a. 48:55 Sean Finnegan: Lot of people do still prefer YouTube, the sort of unwashed masses, I suppose, since you're one of my dear comrades and audio I can I can be a snob with you about this. Anyhow, on the YouTube comments somebody commented in the Trinity is a Pagan belief and not Christian. I often hear people use John. 49:14 Sean Finnegan: One one through 18 to try to prove it, but then you remind them that there is 2 mention of John one and not three. So I just wanted to mention a couple of things on this. I don't think the Trinity is strictly speaking is a Pagan belief. People say that from time to time. 49:29 Sean Finnegan: But I'd like to see evidence. I mean, I know there are, like 3 headed gods among the Hindus. And you know, maybe you can find Cerberus, the three headed dog or something like that. But is that really the Trinity? Did that really play a role in the develop in the Trinity? I don't think so. Philosophy is much more relevant. But even when it comes to philosophy, the Trinity. 49:49 Sean Finnegan: Is still a mishmash because the incarnation of Jesus. That concept is very non philosophical to go from spirit to flesh is not a moved any of the philosophers. The Greek philosophers would have. 50:02 Sean Finnegan: 1st so I think it's something that grew and naturally evolved in the matrix of both Second Temple Jewish and more importantly, especially as we get into the second and third centuries, the Greco-roman context of especially middle Platonism as carried into the church through. 50:22 Sean Finnegan: Philo and his reworking of Torah in light of middle Platonism, but also even more importantly, through the work of Clement of Alexandria and then culminating in the master theologian. 50:36 Sean Finnegan: Origin of Alexandria, who studied under the founder of Neoplatonism Ammonia, Sakis and Alexandria and who really does develop some of the some of the hardware necessary to believe in the Trinity, straight up from his Neoplatonic background. 50:52 But they combined it. 50:53 Sean Finnegan: With Christian themes that were unpalatable to Greek. 50:57 Sean Finnegan: Philosophy. But Pagan I. You know, I don't think it's really Pagan in the sense that you could find Greek gods that were worshipped as three and one or something like that. 51:05 Sean Finnegan: That so I just wanted to give that little pushback, another commenter wrote in saying really enjoyed hearing Rick's journey. I love how he came full circle, answering his 10 year old self's question decades later with so simple an answer to such a profound question reminds me of Jesus embracing little children and asking us to just believe. 51:26 Sean Finnegan: Like they do. Yeah. Sometimes children can get at the truth of the matter before we adults do. That's kind of funny when that happens. And for those of you who haven't heard the episode yet, go back and listen to the last episode, 518, try to believe. 51:40 Sean Finnegan: Trinity and you'll hear Rick's journey going through the pretty much standard American Mega Church process of discipleship and small groups, and meeting with pastors and reading the typical kinds of books by Trinitarians trying to teach the Trinity and simple. 52:01 Sean Finnegan: Terms and so forth, and you can hear about his whole story there. But what's so interesting about Rick is that he is non resistant to this idea. In fact, if anything, he's in favor of it and so am I, by the way, just for the record, I would love for the Trinity to be a good explanation for who God is. 52:19 Sean Finnegan: But it fails. Where does it fail? It fails logically, where else does it fail? It fails biblically. Where else does it fail? It fails. Historically, it's an anachronistic idea that developed over time doesn't mean it's wrong because it developed. But when we have logical problems when we have biblical problems and we don't have historical evidence of it. 52:40 Sean Finnegan: Existing prior to centuries after Christ. 52:43 Sean Finnegan: We really do well to question it and but anyhow I would love for it to be true. I would love to believe in it personally, because even though it's confusing, I would have so many more career opportunities. As a pastor, I have so many more friends I could publish in so many more journals and evangelical publishers. 53:03 Sean Finnegan: I think my life would just overall be easier if I could believe in the Trinity, but uh, try as I might I I I can't seem to find a way to make it work. 53:14 Sean Finnegan: Either and I'm quite convinced that it's just something that if you had told it to Jesus like the whole theory, the model of the Trinity, he would look at you and just be like, what are you talking about or to any of the apostles? They'd be like, look, person, as distinct from being. What is that? 53:32 Sean Finnegan: How can you be eternal and generated? How can you be begotten and never have a beginning? You know, these are just some basic basic problems with the Trinity that is not that they do not have ready solutions. 53:46 Sean Finnegan: If you're curious to delve deeper into the topic of the Trinity, I would strongly recommend Dale Tuggy's work. His Stanford Encyclopedia philosophy entry on the Trinity is very helpful and. 53:58 Sean Finnegan: Also his book. 53:59 Sean Finnegan: Called what is the Trinity which you get on Amazon and he goes through very systematically an analytic philosophical approach to. 54:07 Sean Finnegan: Evaluating the Trinity and ultimately saying, look, I think we're better off with. 54:12 Sean Finnegan: Got it. Another commenter on the YouTube video says God is not the author of confusion. The Trinity is a combination of Greek philosophy and church doctrine. The church had already started to turn from false doctrine by Second Timothy. The turning continued and became more and more political. 54:33 Sean Finnegan: Unfortunately, the God of this world runs most of that scene. Yeah, so good points here, Peter, you kind of reiterating what I just mentioned about Greek philosophy and church doctrine combining together. I would also echo your point about politics. There were incredible forces at work. 54:51 Sean Finnegan: Both sides, or all three sides, perhaps politicking the emperor to get the emperor on your side so that you could win the day and establish your sect of Christianity as the authorized legitimate sect, and then to be able to persecute or exclude your. 55:11 Sean Finnegan: Theological enemies. Tragic behavior, by the way, I don't think this was a helpful approach to discovering truth. 55:18 Sean Finnegan: So interesting thoughts there friends. Thanks for you who are contributing there. A number of other comments too, which you can go check out at the rest studio YouTube channel if you're interested. That will be it for this week. Next week we have Part 2 with Professor Andrew Perriman once again on Preexistence and Paul and looking at specifically. 55:39 Sean Finnegan: Philippians chapter 2 verses 6 through 11. So stay tuned for that if you'd like to contribute to this ministry, you can do that at restitutio.org. I'll catch you next week and remember the truth. 55:52 Sean Finnegan: Has nothing to fear.