This is the transcript of Restitutio episode 517 Walking with God with Josh and Daisy Jones This transcript was auto-generated and only approximates the contents of this episode. Sean Finnegan: So Josh and Daisy Jones, so great to have you on the show today. Thanks for joining me. Josh Jones: It's our pleasure. Wonderful to be here. Daisy Jones: Yeah. Thanks for asking us. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. To begin with, I thought you could just introduce yourselves a little bit and tell a little bit about who you are and then we could get into your story a little bit and your background. So who who are you? Who are the Joneses? Josh Jones: An unconventional couple presently living in in north London. I'm a serving officer in the Parish regiment being served for 20 years in one capacity or. And we have got two wonderful children, joy and Isaac, five and three respectively. Days. Do you wanna talk about yourself? Daisy Jones: OK. Well, I guess my my first role is is mummy at the moment cause I've got a 5. And a three-year old and they are an absolute joy. In fact, they're both called joy because one is called joy. And the other one is called. Isaac, which means join laughter. So we're in the stage of still sleepless nights a little bit. I'm still nursing my youngest. So if you hear a cry in the background, I might have to disappear. But such is life. But we didn't want to miss this opportunity to speak with you because we listen to you a lot and you know we wanted to share our story. Sean Finnegan: Let's hear about how you came to faith. I don't know who would like to go first, but I've heard that in the UK in general and London in particular, there are a lot of secular minded people. So how is it that you two are Christians? Really, I guess. Would be my first question. Who would? Josh Jones: So yeah, so I was actually born in Australia. I grew up there in New Zealand, the Solomon Islands, Portugal, before moving to England at the age of 12. And as a young kid, I was, you know, forced to go to church. My, my parents did have a faith. It is like live and vibrant today, very much so. But thinking in the younger days was very much just trying to instill in me some good behaviour and some. Good Bible stories. At the age of 12, moved to a place called Orpington in Kent. Again, just outside London up to the South East this time as opposed to the NW where we are presently and went to a really good Baptist Church, I very quickly fell in love with the word of God. There were some really godly men there who used to run the Bible study week by week, would go and just really enjoy studying the Bible as I got into my. Kind of later teens 1 by 1. My friends would leave as the lure of of teenage life just became too strong for. And but I just kind of fell more and. More in love. With the word. So I remember coming home from school and just like going. Into my other. Garage that we had converted and just like reading, reading the Bible and kind of got to age like 1617 or it's like, you know, this is real. Then if I pray something should happen because you know, this book is a story of men and women. And having supernatural encounters with a divine God, you know, every character is almost like a Marvel superhero in the sense that something extraordinary is happening in their lives. It's not just a blind faith, it's it's a living faith. And so I just started kind of praying where I was asking questions to understand what this particular passage. And or personal events in my life answers just started to arrive through all interesting and peculiar. News. There's a big move of God. Some Americans were probably aware of it in 1994. It was kind of aptly named the Toronto blessing. You know, I I. Did sense a change in the atmosphere in the churches? I saw people kind of leading what I'd more say, more spirit filled lives, passionate prayer activity, sharing their faith. And I knew that's what I wanted to do. And and in that period of time, you know, I saw miracles personally in my own life. I was healed, miraculously, of asthma that I had been suffering from from about 7:00. And right to the extent where I got prayed for in church and then completely forgot about it because there was a word that, you know, God wanted to hear someone ask for. And I had that since I was 7 and like my dad, he was like a fantastic rugby player. You know, I once made the B team at the age of seven. And on my glorious attendance on the pitch. I promptly had a a desperate attack within 10 minutes and got rushed to hospital, so my dad's hopes for a rugby player. You know, wearing the Kiwi jersey, we were cool, he. Crushed. Ohh man and. Sean Finnegan: Those those guys are epic. Those Kiwi rugby guys? Incredible. Josh Jones: And my dad was he was a fantastic rugby player and so there I was with my little inhalers, you know, and I was 19 at the time, 18 or 19. 18 I would. Have been a few. Weeks later, I went for my check up and my local doctor's surgery and I completely forgotten about the prayer and there was a new Doctor and I went through the test, et cetera. Then I went into her kind of office and sat down. And and she just started telling me off. I was like, what are you doing in here like. When the really aggressive. Voice, why are you wasting my time? And I'm just. Like what are you talking? About I'm here for my annual asthma check. Up and she said to. Me, there is nothing on these records to indicate. You've ever had asthma? In terms of the tests that I did in terms of all the scans and whatever they what they did for that for that check. Up so that. Was an astonishing thing for me. And you know, never, ever looked back. So I went the, the inhalers and all that stuff. Sean Finnegan: And how? How old are you now? You don't look 19 to me. Josh Jones: No, no, I'm 47 now. Sean Finnegan: 47 OK, so that's that's a long track record of not having asthma. Wow. That's incredible. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I got baptized. I led my best friend to to faith, baptized him in the local swimming pool, cause his family were Buddhists. And if they if they knew that. He had come. To faith they would have kicked him out of the house. And and you know, I was kind of that term on fire. Now the interesting thing is is. That I was clearly part of the Trinitarian Church and through all my study of Scripture, I never believed Jesus was God and I always knew that my understanding of who God was and. Who Jesus was was. Different from my Bible teachers from the. Pastors and this type of thing. But I never knew there was a name for it. I was completely oblivious to what is. Unitarianism and the history of the church, that council creeds. And stuff like this I. Was just like for me, Scripture is clear, but the outworking of my faith was sharing the gospel and I felt I could do that without having to confront this issue. Because it was just. I was young, I was energetic, and this type of. Thing. So I took a year out in. In that time I felt that the reason why God was was going to do this and my father, in good kind of Kiwi fashion because at the age of 15 he was given 500 bucks and told to go make his way in. The world you know. I I was 18 is like right. If if you don't. Get a job within within one week. You're out of the house. And that was me. You know, on my knees, praying and like, literally that day get a random phone call from a friend of mine who. Just thought he would call me to offer me a job in the local Silver Spoon Cafe and I was like, thank you Lord. So I was living in this kind of vibrant spirit filled love of being in relation with God went to university. I then set up running something called the alpha course. Do you know what the. Alpha course is. Uh, nothing. Do you know its? Sean Finnegan: No, I'm not familiar. Josh Jones: Yeah, it's basically an Anglican introductory course to God. The meaning of life. It's meant to be for beginner Christians and also people inquiring. So it's a very popular course here. Run by the kind of. I say conservative, evangelical Anglican wing, but it's hugely popular. Josh Jones: Yeah. So the catch phrase is who is Jesus essentially and it's. Basically questions. Daisy Jones: That was the original catch phrase slogan. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah. And it's a 12 week course and the unique thing about it is introduced this bit. Who is the? Holy Spirit so. It kind of jumped on the back of. Kind of. The outpouring or whatever term people would like to use in 1994, and it gave people to kind of transition from a a reading about stuff to kind of stepping forward in terms of an in filling. Of the spirit. Now the the intriguing thing is that clearly it's a Trinitarian course and. And the and one of the key catchphrases of it was based on. CS Lewis's most famous phrases. Which was either Jesus. Was either Mad Bad or God. Now, clearly, I never believed that and, but I couldn't tell anyone that because here I was running this and. I always said you. Know Jesus is mad, bad God or. Who? He said he was. And because he was running, because I was able to just slightly amend certain parts. Sean Finnegan: You got away with that, huh? Daisy Jones: I got away with it. Josh Jones: I mean, I knew the book. I knew the book back. I literally memorized the entire book. But what I was able to do was present Jesus as he declared he was. Now, I didn't have the same knowledge as I do now in terms of Messianic prophecy is. But what I just didn't do was just present Jesus as God Almighty. And the the amazing thing is, as I recall, genuinely everyone who completed that course came to an independent, genuine faith. And from this little church grew this really vibrant community, you know, from there, I was involved in setting up a youth group, taking a whole bunch of young kids to church. I mean things. You could never do today. You know, with another kind of friend. We took a. 3 year old A5 year old A7 year old a nine year old and 12 year. Old to church. Really met their parents once you know. You could never do. Things like that in this morning. Yeah. Yeah, end up. Joining a a pretty vibrant rock band. Sean Finnegan: And what? What did you play? Josh Jones: So I played bass. Yeah. So I I recall one day it was my coming to the end because I studied law at university. Yeah, I'd always in the careers office had always been Paris marines or submarines. But with this explosion of faith, I always kind of joked that. I'm in God's army now, so. You know, this is this is where. I'm going to serve. And so I decided to do law. I remember praying in my room that I really wanted to have the opportunity to share my faith with kids in school and. Stuff like this. The next day, my Rd. from Hertfordshire. I was up to Saint Albans and on route. Halfway through I met this bloke called Mark James, who is now quite a famous worship leader in the Vineyard Worship movement and wasn't well. He wasn't then I had seen his band play. A month or so before, we'd only kind of shook hands. I said hi. But anyway, we got chatting on the zebra crossing and he goes. What you doing on Friday? It's like nothing. And he goes well, we're going into. The local school. With the band. We would like you to to play bass. To come and. Share your faith. And I wasn't really a musician by any stretch of imagination I can. I can. I'm maturing. I can play a rhythm and I can move. These guys were proper musicians. You know I'm the fool who can who can move around the stage. But that was me, you know, on the Friday there. I am in a school sharing. My faith, not four days after, you know, getting my knees and prayers saying, Lord, I'd really love to, to share my faith in schools with. Young people and then from. There joined something called our nation and spent the rest of the year basically touring around different schools doing that exact same thing, whilst somehow managing to do my law degree at the same time. I never let on. That my understanding of. Who God was was was different. To Michael, there are there are a few things that I used to kind of. Day, but again, it was before the age of the Internet. From what I recall, I hadn't met anyone with any of the knowledge that you or who's the who's the chat that we met? The yeah. Fancy Buzzard. You know, I just wasn't exposed to to any of this stuff. And and to me it's not wasn't important. Because I was seeing God move, you know, people's lives were being. Daisy Jones: Changed. Can I add an interesting detail? A little factoid. OK. Josh was in two bands that were unrelated. The secular one was called dusk and the. The Christian one was called dust. So yeah, that's a fact. So yeah, the one with Mark James's dust, isn't it? Yeah. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah, does. Now I'll kind of just bring. This particular part to a close and then we can go over to Daisy and then and then. Maybe back to me. In this period of time where I was, I felt very close to God. You know, I spent lots of time just out on the streets. Share my faith and many, many dark hours and that an incident occurred in the spirit that shook my faith in a way that I just. Was not expecting. It created like a kind of a a darkness, and it wasn't that my faith in God was shook, but it was my. Love for God? In, in the sense that I couldn't understand what had happened and you know, I struggled with this thing for almost five years. And I went to kind of senior leaders, people who I trusted. But because I was always kind of on the fringe of the church as I. Was a part of. Not so much because of my understanding who God was, but because I. Was out there living, sharing, preaching. I never really had that deep mentorship, and when I finally got to speak to the past, who I really respected, the advice he gave me was terrible, he said. Basically, if you can't understand why this happened, you will never trust God. It culminated with me at the age of 2526, walking away from everything that I was doing. I remained faithful in season and out of season as best as I. Good. And reconciling what had happened, what had got to a stage where I just was broken inside. And so I decided to step back and. Walk my own. Path, which I regret doing, and in that time I did get married. Not please Daisy and during up the Army, the parish regiment. There's a amazing verse that you. Know if we are faithless. God is still faithful and you know, slowly and surely he called me. Back and I've got many miraculous testimonies of extraordinary protection and provision and guidance, particularly whilst on operations and stuff like this, and and my son. Has really made a tremendous difference, but the kind of summary statement so I can break clean and that my beautiful wife speak is looking back. Whilst I was aware of what success looked like potentially in the spirit using kind of military terminology, what I wasn't aware of was my enemy and I didn't have the maturity and understanding of of. That's quite what it meant. When you know when Jesus said, you know, Satan is the father of lies, and that when he speaks deception, it comes out. As truth you. Know we live and fight this battle daily. We see how effective Satan's lives have been in terms of the corruption. Some of the. Most simple statements in the history of mankind, you. Know you're over God is. One and how they can turn 1 into a a purity you know. It's just but. How Satan can make but not just truth in the in terms of words and. Corrupt stuff, but actually in the spirit. As well, and I lacked the maturity of understanding just how deceptive. He can be and the absolute requirement to go back to the scriptures and test everything against the scriptures. Fast forward a number of years till about seven years ago, six years. Yeah, you always. Daisy Jones: Yeah, yeah, 6 1/2 years. Josh Jones: Well, that's marriages. And we met before then. Daisy Jones: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yes. Josh Jones: In the February, yeah. Yeah. So do you. So do you spend some time on on young Daisy? Daisy Jones: Completely different background, so I'm a born and bred Londoner. My father is British, fiercely Welsh, and my mother's Argentinian, and so she's very Catholic. And my mother's side of the family are. Very Catholic. And so I grew up Catholic. I was baptized Catholic. I then flew over to Argentina for my Holy Communion. And. Yeah. Yeah. And it was actually quite embarrassing because they they handed me the cup of wine and basically I drank all of it because. Daisy Jones: I thought. That's what I was meant to do. You're supposed to. Sean Finnegan: Take a sip and. You can't. Daisy Jones: I was supposed to take a sip and I took the whole thing and I could hear all my family. The background. Goats up her like this, but anyway so but. It was still a good experience. And but sadly, that's where my official faith journey ended. Formally so my mom, I kind of see her as a Catholic marvel superhero. So she's she's worked for the Catholic Church for many years now. Well, now she works for a Christian charity that work with persecuted Christians in. The Middle East. But she's worked for the Catholic Church for many years, and so. Catholic highlights include going to Rome for the Catholic Great Jubilee in 2000 and sharing bread broken by John Paul the 2nd and sharing that with my. Mum, that was pretty cool. Even though I didn't identify as a Catholic at the time, but I still believed very strongly in God. Sean Finnegan: And and were you in Saint Peters Square, Vatican for that? What? What an amazing. Daisy Jones: Yes, yes. Sean Finnegan: Spot that is. Daisy Jones: It's just amazing it it it really is amazing. It's really amazing. Thing. And then my mom also organized Pope Benedict the 16th, who to my Protestant friends is Pope Ratzinger. I guess to come over. And that was around 2010. So she organised a big event in Hyde Park. And so I went to see him there, which was an amazing experience. Again, and because she'd organised it, obviously we were kind of in the front and I had all these bishops and Cardinals behind me. And I remember turning round and apologising to them, saying, oh, I'm you're far more pious than me and. I shouldn't really. Be here and I'm not. I'm not even Catholic. And I remember a nun who was next to this quite important cardinal. She said to me. Oh, you're right where God wants you to be. And I thought, OK. I'll roll with that. Another notable moment in my Catholic history with a bit of a Latin American flavour. Is a few years ago I went to the hills in northern Argentina in a place called Salba La Linda, which means Salta the beautiful. And there's a lady there who claims she says she sees apparitions of. The Virgin Mary. Thousands of people come from all over the world. Every Saturday they come to see her. So even though I was very non Catholic at the time and but still a very strong believer at that time and wanting to honour my mum who'd invited me, I went there and that was a pretty mad experience if you've experienced. The South American Catholicism, I don't remember seeing a branch on the way up to the hill Slash Mountain that didn't have hundreds of plastic rosaries on, you know, and and then when you got there, she prayed over you with a rosary in one hand and then she put her hand on your your head. And there were loads of people falling over and stuff, but very silently in a very Catholic way, not a Pentecost. The way. Sean Finnegan: I do want to hear, I guess I'm curious about the Unitarianism a little bit more because what, Daisy, what you said is that you, you never believed in the. Trinity at all. Daisy Jones: No, I know, I know. I mean don't. Sean Finnegan: You have like the Catholic. Daisy Jones: No. Yeah, I mean, I definitely did the sign, but I didn't know. What I was doing but. My heads, God and Jesus, were always distinguishable, distinct. Sean Finnegan: So then you're an example of a Catholic Unitarian. Right. Daisy Jones: No, no, I I don't. I I I cause I didn't even know the word Unitarian. It was just my it was just my understanding of it. I I never shared it. There was no real forum to share it. Sean Finnegan: Right, but here. Here's. Here's what I'm thinking. About is my own mother. She was a Baptist, I think a Southern Baptist. And she said she never believed in the Trinity and she was always, you know, she would never use EU word Unitarian. But she would she, but that that did describe what she believed. She believed that there was a father. Daisy Jones: 100%. Sean Finnegan: And then there's Jesus, OK. So I wonder how many people are in that category even now in Orthodox Christianity and Catholic Christianity and Anglican Christianity among evangelicals of all different stripes, you know? I I bet. There are lots of Unitarians that you know that it's not. Organized in their mind behind a word or a theology, it's just sort of like it's just sort of fuzzy. Daisy Jones: Yeah. So yeah, so those are my kind of highlights of my Catherine Catherine. Oh, gosh, sorry. Catholic, Unitarian. And then on my dad's side. So I'll go into a bit of my dad's family history, cause it's quite interesting from a non conformist Unitarian. Angle I come from about 5 generations of very non conformist Christian thinkers who wanted the disestablishment. Of the church. So they were a mixture of Welsh and from the Isle of Man. I don't know if you've heard of the Isle of Man. It's a kind of small island. Just off the coast of Britain, obviously, and so my ancestors were big on. Trying to well, they wanted freedom from worship. They didn't want to send taxes to the Church of England. They wanted the freedom to worship and for everything to be decentralised from Westminster, which is still why the Welsh and the Scottish hate the English because they think that it's still very centralised around Westminster. So my ancestors are kind of. Famous for rejecting the Affination Creed for not noticing Lent and not observing Ash Wednesday and things like this. So I like to think well, we I've just had an update from ancestry.com. I've still got 60% of Welsh blood flowing through my veins. So I like to think I've got a drop of that non conformist blood in my veins, definitely. Sean Finnegan: Well, at least you don't have the accent. To us, we need a translator. Daisy Jones: Ohh yeah, no. Well, she's well, she's very strong. Sean Finnegan: We Americans have no idea what they're saying. I yeah, I really. Daisy Jones: That's my dad's side, but unfortunately my dad is agnostic. I I checked in with him last week. He's 85 and I said daddy. You know, you still don't believe in God, and he said no, but I respect your, you know, beliefs and I love you and blah blah as you've mentioned before the UK. Is quite a. Secular landscape Brits tend to be just quite cynical about everything and just miserable sometimes. Maybe it's the weather. I don't. I went to university, I went to Durham University where Harry Potter was filmed. There I met my best friend, who is a evangelical Protestant, and I think she was the first person I'd ever met who was like an evangelical who actually believed in God and was Protestant, I guess. Thinking back through my faith journey, one of the things that really impacted me was. Meeting her parents and her parents, inviting me to pray with them all out loud around the table. It really had an effect on me about how powerful prayer was because prayer for me was always at night and to myself, and obviously always praying for other people, but very silent and very solemn. In the Catholic way, whereas this was very dynamic and I felt really moved by it, it moved me to tears actually. And I thought this is what I really like. This kind of charismatic expression of faith after university. I also took a year out in Spain and then I moved to Argentina. I went to Argentina for a bit. And then when I came back, I did a series of jobs, completely wild, different jobs. I've always talked for the last 20 years, but I also did a bit of modelling very badly. And then I also did just other things. Other work. I had a shop I was designing things. It was quite a hectic life. But because I didn't have that kind of firm biblical church foundation thing, I think I kind of drifted off and got very attracted by the esoteric things new agey kind of things. I kind of got lured into reading esoteric books. Reading about the new age and stuff like this. And also made friends with people who were kind of in that environment. I guess I was craving the spiritual. But again, I didn't really have that firm Biblical Foundation to realize that it's not what God wanted and it's not what I should have been doing. God really convicted me. That I should leave the new Agey world slowly, slowly, I started to kind of remove certain items like the Buddha on my on my wall and stuff like this, and to get rid of my esoteric books and stuff. I started listening to Derek Prince, who's a very famous Pentecostal preacher. He's died now. He's he was at Cambridge and he was a philosopher, originally had no interest in religion, and God hit him one night and suddenly he had this. Big healing and deliverance ministry. And so I started listening to. It's really powerful sermons, and they really. Really impacted me and I remember him saying about his healing and deliverance ministry that he felt. Really ill equipped to do it but he just did it anyway because he thought that. God would equip him. At the time, so that really stuck in my mind. Sure enough, in a very cliched way, I kind of everything was going wrong in my life and I guess I hit rock bottom. Them and it's a very cliched story and sometimes I think, God, you know, despairing at some of us going ohh, you know, another one who had, who was so stubborn and had to like, you know, get to a certain place in order to accept. So, yeah. So. So that's basically what happened is that I text a friend of mine who I I could see. Salt and lighten him and I asked him, could you take me to your church? And so, yeah, so I drove for four hours on Sunday and arrived at his church. And I arrived just in time for the pastor to. You say that there was someone there and then he went on to describe everything I'd done in my life and everything. I wanted to kind of clear out of my life. And so my legs just took me to the altar. It's never happened since it had never happened before. And there then I gave my life to Jesus in a full and whole way there and then. And. Yeah. And then my life changed quite dramatically after that in a very good way. After that, I decided to do an alpha course. And the alpha course. Is a very Anglican introductory course to God or to Jesus, as they'd say, and the meaning of life, basically. But it's a very, very popular course here. Millions of people do it. It's for those. It's inquiring, people who want to do it basically. And there's a focus on the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit Weekend at the end of it. So I decided I wanted. To do that. And at the same time, I continued going to this very charismatic Pentecostal church where I had been born again, and I had. A love for. Jews, Muslims and the gay community, and I felt like. Like I was going to do something, helping them, serving them, loving them in some way. That's what God had impacted on me at this conservative, very white middle class church. I met a friend who is the interfaith minister, was the interfaith minister at Lambda. Alice's Lambeth Palace is kind of our this is a really weak comparison, but it's like our Rome. It's the head of the Anglican. Church in the world? Yeah, but it's like a pauper's palace compared to Saint Peters Square. But anyway, so he worked there, but he was working with Muslims, and he invited me to this party with. Lots of. I guess the Christian Anglican movers and shakers I went there, I was just kind of chatting at this party and he pulled me aside and he said Ohh, would you pray with me and my friend for my friend and I said, yeah, OK. So I went with him and it was him. Who I obviously he's an established Christian. It was his friend who was a leader at Holy Trinity, Brompton. HB is the biggest church in the UK and the biggest Anglican and the biggest church. I think in of any denomination. It's it's a very big. Like big branch of. And they asked me to pray for their friend. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I'm a baby Christian. What am I doing here? I'm totally not qualified to be praying for these people. But anyway, I prayed for their friend and normally in that situation, I would definitely let the men lead the prayer. And especially because they were more. Qualified than I was in many ways. But I started just leading the prayer and the Holy Spirit just gave me words of knowledge about their friend, about his upbringing. It obviously chimed A chord with their friend. Anyway, the prayer went well and afterwards I pulled my friend to one side and I said, why did you ask like little old me? To pray and he said. Well, he said. I could tell you were good in dark places, he said, and he left it at that. And I thought. OK. So that was a kind. Of signpost for me, one of the first signposts. That I maybe was going to go into some kind of healing and deliverance ministry. Then when I got baptized. I actually ended up doing healing and deliverance on a lady who was there. So when I got baptised, I decided I didn't want to go the church route because all the baptisms I'd seen in church were very fast and furious, and it was like dunk towel, dunk towel, dunk towel. And I thought, look, if I'm gonna be completely born again. I need serious prayer and I. Want it to be intimate? That and so I reached out to a pastor and I said, look, would you baptize me not in a church? And he said, yeah, sure. I can baptize you anywhere. He's like, I can baptize you in the 10s, which is like, I don't know, the Hudson River, which is pretty gross or the sea, which I thought was cold. And and it. Or or your. Bath and I felt great. It can be nice and warm and I'm really happy with that. So we planned a date when obviously Josh could attend and his sister, who's a big worship leader in in a in a big church in South London. Unbeknownst to everyone he brought along last minute, two people and one of those people was an enquiring Muslim, but she didn't announce herself to be a Muslim. She didn't say anything and she was totally dressed as a Westerner. There was no indication she wasn't hijabi, she she was completely westernized. So when I got dunked in the privacy of my bathroom, she broke out into tongues and she didn't know what was happening. She didn't understand it at all. But when that happened. And as soon as I got out. And got dressed. There was a lot of commotion going on and then she asked. Me to baptise her. So at my baptism I ended up baptising a Muslim into the Christian faith, and that was pretty wild too, because, well, I've never baptized. Anyone. And secondly, just before I was about to put her in the water, I had a word of knowledge basically. That she was. Here for something really bad that had happened to her, and God was showing me what had happened and the people involved, and that she was gonna completely. Be set free from that, so I whispered to her what I could see. She was very shocked and she said that's exactly why I came today. Because I want to be. Free from this and then Josh's sister who's amazing. She said to her. I see you in white robes before the throne of God, and you are so precious to him and she her eyes just totally. She just just totally popped out of her head and she. Said I've had that recurring dream for a very long time. And you've just confirmed again why I'm here. So that was pretty crazy. And again, it was confirmation I had like. Confirmation that one I maybe had. A ministry with Muslims and two, that healing and deliverance is obviously for today. So then then out of the blue, I got asked to teach English to Arab Orthodox coptics and apostates out of the blue, my friends asked me, she said, would you teach English to all these people? And I said yes, I would, and turns out. The location was the church that I had become born again in. Yeah, that was actually a real privilege. That was about a year and a half and I heard some amazing stories about when Jesus visits Muslims. He really visits them in a really powerful way. So, like, at the end of their beds, speaking to them on the motorway, in dreams, in visions, I I heard the most amazing things. And they really left everything. They left their families, their countries and. Thing. Now I'm gonna say something super controversial. Obviously I'm already heretic in the Trinitarian world, but I'm likely to be a heretic in every world now, but I don't actually like the word apostate and the only reason I'm using. It is because. In the Koran, Jesus is the Messiah. He is. Marcia he is Al Masir, which is the Messiah. He is Marcia. He said. Jesus Christ, the Messiah. He's the word, you know. He's the healer. He's the mender of bones. And so for me. Dems love Jesus Christ. They just don't understand him in his fullness, and obviously they've got the one God part right. I'm gonna get a lot of haters. What I'm saying here, but I've just gotta. Say it, but obviously. We think Trinitarianism is the stumbling block for Jews and Muslims. That's just a fact they can't understand that God. Die. And so for me, I was just talking to them about the Jesus I love and also teaching them. English, which was which was really. Then I did a term in in prison. Not because I was arrested and went to prison, but I did prison Alpha, which is the alpha course in prison. So it's introducing the prisoners to faith. And that was pretty amazing because obviously I broke all the rules. We weren't meant to hog the prisoners. I hug the prisoners. What was weird was I I ended up getting Facebook requests from them in prison I was like. Hang on, he's. That has he got a mobile phone, but that was really amazing and that definitely impacted me massively on my face journey. I was always naturally Unitarian, but I'd never really thought that clearly. Obviously, I never thought that Jesus and God were one person. I always saw them separately. Ironically, yeah, all the Catholic iconography does portray them as completely different anyway, so for me there was always a distinction between. God the father and Jesus. And so when Josh and I started dating, I just came out with it and just said you don't believe Jesus is God, do you? And and yeah, he paused. And I thought, ohh, that's the end of our relationship. Short lived relationship and and no. And then he confirmed that he never. Taught Jesus as. God, when he was running out. The courses at university. And then I was like and then and and then after that I was driving with Josh and we were off to see his atheist, Pagan druid friends who live with loads of lizards. It's, and that's another story. But anyway. And we were off to see them. And I feel the Holy Spirit prompted me. To speak to a friend of mine who is the most knowledgeable person with the biggest encyclopedic brain I know on the scriptures and everything else he was learning Latin and Greek from too. He speaks multiple multiple languages, and he's very, very. Right. And I met him doing some. I was hosting some politics events. I thought, OK, I'll text him to see what he thinks about the Trinity. So I I sent him a message and I said, hey, I know you're on the board of a very ancient Trinitarian society, but you don't really believe in the Trinity. He and he responded almost instantly and said thank you so much for contacting me, Daisy, he said. Actually, no, I don't. And my parents run a Unitarian Bible study group, so. We went to this Bible study group and we met loads of cool people which introduced us to the very exclusive Unitarian community. Then we got invited to David Seaborn Jones, who's lovely and absolutely lovely. And we got invited to his house. Umm. And for a fellowship with Santoni Bozard because he was in the. And when we prayed, I I confess that our dream is to maybe open a. Hmm. Yeah, well, no. Open the church here. And it was Anthony Buzzard who said I see you may be opening a church, a Unitarian church in Israel. Josh Jones: I'm sorry. That's that's the point in. Sean Finnegan: Israel. Yeah, yeah. Josh Jones: That's before we realize that we celebrate Sabbath and stuff like that. So. I'm often like. Arguing with little Carlos on the thing going. Carlos like... Josh Jones: Although I've a I love the respect. For a lot of the stuff that Carlos. So yeah, so Daisy introduced us. Sean Finnegan: So when when did? You meet Anthony. Josh Jones: Maybe 3-4 years ago. 4 favored and. Daisy Jones: Before it was 20, joy Joy was one, so it must. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, yeah. Four years ago, OK. Daisy Jones: Have been four years. Josh Jones: Ago, yeah. So from so I took up this really unique job here in Northwood bays and I, you know, we got married, we moved in together, we started to develop this kind of little community of Unitarian Christians. I started to understand more about the history and this type of thing. And my my vision still was to look. It was almost like to infiltrate. Into the Church of England, a bit like a Nicodemus type of character in a way to try and bring about positive change because you know, I'd been part of Trinitarian churches or no Unitarian churches at all. Wear off and so I kind of again still discretely I was because still developing my understanding and started going for the the Bishop's advisory process, whatever that, that that was it because our, our, our real aim actually my real aim in the first instance was trying to build unity through community and not doctrine and 1st instance. So it was trying to bring about the love and. Daisy Jones: Now versus. Josh Jones: What about working of our faith? To then demonstrate and bring influence in communities, really to show the love and and the positive effects that people who follow you sure can bring to a community. And because that's what I've always seen in my younger days and it's like my sister, you know, you can break into the hard landscape here in the UK if you go out and preach the. Word and spirit and faith. Because God will be there and people's hearts will be changed, people's lives will be moved. Well, we had this vision to try and unite churches, to get churches to look outside their purview. Of their four walls, to get people to pull resources. To pull ideas. You know, a church full of old people helping. Maybe the church with like the young kids, you know, get a few churches together so that young people can form a good youth group thing. But basically all my ideas and work were just poo pooed, you know, the passing it back to me and don't look, having grown up in churches, I've got thick skinned Germaine. I'm not. I'm not taking it super personally, but when the guy in charge of the bat, I transpired, was the guy who was promoting the transgender liturgy in the Church of England. I was just like. There is no way in our good Lord sweet Earth I'm letting latch app determine whether I suitable. So we withdrew ourselves from that one of the offshoots of the church we were attending was gonna be shut down. And The thing is, it was full of very beautiful old faithful Christians. A lot of them quite set in their ways, but. They did outreach in the school, so sharing the gospel, you know, they did work with old people and stuff. Like this so we. Just thought it's wrong just to shut this down so days and another couple stepped up to and we ended up Co leading this church about a year and. 1/2 and you know. I was able to do that. You know, we were preaching. Regularly so just preaching. Daisy Jones: You're preaching Unitarianism in a Trinitarian church. Josh Jones: Yeah, basically. Daisy Jones: Totally undetected because we were just preaching the word. Josh Jones: And most people don't. They're blinking bibles. Do you know what I mean? So. Daisy Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does help when you're preaching from the. Old Testament and the. Arms you you can go under the radar, but it wasn't in an underhand way or anything. It's just we we just preached what was spilled and. What was written? And and that was it. And it wasn't anything under housing. Josh Jones: Yeah, we, you. Know with the hope of changing hearts and minds and developing people and introducing people to God's name. You know what it meant to be the Messiah. You know what? Were the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible that were then actually fulfilled in Yeshua? Well, I didn't, you know, these are terms probably still using the word Christ and stuff like this. But then it just got to a point where you know every now and again there'll be a. Like a a focus on the. Trinity and it. Will just infuriate me massively and we just got the points like where we actually wanna step outside of this. Now we want to have the freedom to really share what's on our hearts. So in the early stages about community, it was about just showing the word the. Passport that we we used to do lots of stuff on the on the military base where we are here. So running kind of messy church for kids and this time. The thing but the the kind of division changed to like I really now want to counter the Trinitarian narrative and. Take that head on. Daisy Jones: And also our love for juice and Muslims. You know, when we were in Israel, we're gonna have to do another show on on the miracles that happen in Israel, not least an Orthodox rabbi running after me and grabbing my arm and asking me what my secret was because I had joy. So I got to tell him about Yeshua and say, you know, I love Yeshua and I love Israel and had a good joke with him because then he prophecy. Died and I said wait, you're not meant to do that. You just think that old prophets did that. Anyway, he has been wishing me a happy Shabbat every Friday for the last five years. And we had other amazing encounters where we just had Jews on their way to synagogue and just come up to us out of the blue. Stop us in. The street and say. And in Galilee and and the sky just stopped us. And he was all in black with his little briefcase on his way to synagogue. And he stopped, and he wouldn't stop staring. And he was about to walk into a lamp post. So I was like, hey. Josh Jones: In in. Daisy Jones: Hey, so anyway he he. Just can't he? He didn't even say hello. He said I want you to know, I believe that Jesus walked on water here. And and then he. Josh Jones: Asked us to share. Jesus with him. Tell him about Jesus. This is a random bloke. Who literally just walked up to us as. We were walking from our. Hotel down to this. To the wherever the town centre is in in the the base. Of Galilee. Literally. Daisy Jones: I would really say it was hotel. It was a. Shed, but anyway. Josh Jones: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean. It was astonishing, I mean, absolutely astonishing. Daisy Jones: Yeah, it was amazing. Josh Jones: Yeah. So we, we we met this a Muslim kind of evangelist who'd met a a French guy, was it who was gonna basically convert to Islam. He was all happy. And he showed this little photo of him. Anyway, the next day we'd arranged to go and meet this guy, but we were running late. Not that this was the imam guy, just to again speak about. Stuff and we're in the proper. You know what The streets are like in Jerusalem, completely crowded and. And then David just says. Stop that, man. I look around and I and she's pointing towards like a backpack and. Like a bloke with. A massive brown. Hair like uh. And so I just went out. To this guy and I just. Stopped him and I said I do. Do you mind? Stopping my wife would just. Want to speak to you? I have no idea. Why? Anyway, Daisy comes up. Daisy says you're the guy who's gonna convert to us, aren't you? And he goes, yeah. Why? And it's like I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is like one random bloke in thousands. How did Daisy know? Anyway, I said, look, I think we can give him a word and we'd like to just share our faith with you and speak to you. Give your story this type of thing. And so we end up going to the where's the beautiful, the beautiful cafe at Christchurch in near Saint? There David's gate and. Daisy Jones: Yeah, the concern. They're the only Protestant church within the walls. Josh Jones: Yes, that's the one. Have you been there? Sean Finnegan: Are you talking about the old city? Yeah. Nails. Yeah. Which gate is it? Josh Jones: So David's gate it's. The oldest Methodist Church in. Sean Finnegan: Yes, I I had. Yes, I do remember. Seeing that, yeah. Josh Jones: Best place to stay, I'd say. And best food anyway. So it was getting late and we sat down. We got coffee. I remember going into the toilet and just praying that God would give me the words to say, you know, help me witness. But. But I just pray for God to. To help us. You know, witness to this guy. Here we go outside. There's no one. Around except this old woman kind of sitting maybe 10 meters away from us. You know when you know that, someone can hear what you're talking about and they're. But they're trying not to be too obvious that they know that they. Kind of almost want to get. Involved in the conversation. And so she's rattling a little chair. And so I just went over this and just kind of introduce. Myself, but I can't remember quite how it happened. Daisy Jones: I told you invite. Josh Jones: Her over? Yeah. And basically walks as kind of 80 year old Palestinian Catholic woman who takes over the conversation with this young French guy. And gives him the most amazing testimonies of God's healing of God's speaking to her. Of this vibrant. Faith of this. Old Palestinian Catholic woman and we were just blown away. It was just like, wow. Sean Finnegan: And she spoke English. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah. She spoke English. Yeah, yeah. Daisy Jones: And the reason why she was there was. Because she was. Waiting for a friend. She never turned up. I saw her on her own. I felt. Sorry for her. I was like come. On come over and then she did. She did all the evangelizing for us. And then that was it that. With him back to being a Christian again. Sean Finnegan: Yeah, well, that's great. It's great to hear that God is at work today and that that's really the message that's shining through from the two of you. Your testimony, your, your experiences, that's so great. So tell us about this conference that's coming up. You guys have a a plan and you have Co conspirators. And your hope. Daisy Jones: We've hooked up with. The Christadelphians it's a miracle I'm checking. No, we love. Sean Finnegan: Charismatics and Christadelphians working. Together it is a miracle, absolutely. Josh Jones: The UCA. I think it's a wonderful resource. I I use a lot of it and I do hope to become a more active participant in. In videos and and debates as we go. Forward, but I. There is this real. Sense of, you know, opportunity to try and build a community of Unitarian believe it's here in the UK. And actually I think and aim for a conference is a fantastic idea. The vision very much aligns with what the UA wants to do. You know, Daisy and I represent a I think was our background. We we are quite comfortable speaking with Unitarians and Christians from all different flavours. And so therefore perhaps. On call us. Honest brokers in every respect because we do have our own particular kind of where we learn issues. But. The unifying call really was saying it's Romans 15 five to seven, you know. May the God of patient endurance and encouragement grant you all to be in agreement with one another. So that was one mouth and one mind. You might glorify the father of our Lord Jesus, the anointed one, therefore accept one another just as the anointed one has accepted you. Daisy Jones: Although that's not the official strap line of. Josh Jones: The IT is. Not but. That that's the vision, really, one mind, one mouth, you know, come together to and unify in, in to kind of learn about and share our faith in God. The father, the ones we. God and but also to reach out across Europe because you know Europe, there are a number of, you know, little strongholds of Unitarian Christians across Europe. And so it's an opportunity to, to pull people together. The great challenge, how we're is finding a location and the Trinitarian churches basically were turning around saying, no, no, no. So my plan was and hopefully no one from it was to find a a church that has perhaps become more liberal in their meanings. And there's a particular denomination where, sadly they've sold off more than 5060% of their churches in the last four or five years they've made amalgamate. They're very much fall under the liberal banner, but actually the nice thing is that presents a freedom and an opportunity. So we found a a wonderful location now where they've agreed that we can host it. I'm not gonna say where it is at the moment, so I need. To go down and. Do the the wrecking, but everything seems seems fine. Sean Finnegan: Is it near? Josh Jones: London. Yep. Yep, it's near London. OK. Yeah, it's. Yeah. Sean Finnegan: Well, that, that. Gives people a a rough idea of where, where. Josh Jones: Ohh yeah, and it's a beautiful. Daisy Jones: Historic location. Josh Jones: Sorry, historic location. So everyone would love. To go there. Daisy Jones: And I think that's the angle we want. We want to entice the Americans here with the historic. Your perspective, I know you know well we we want the whole board to come. I think that that I think the whole board have said they'd like to come, but no, we we want to focus it on the kind of restorative aspect, restoring the faith back to what we believe is the original 1st century Christianity. And this is our little. Sean Finnegan: You are Americans. Daisy Jones: Historical bit, but it you know, I mean it is pretty historical to have a UCA conference in Great Britain and the United Kingdom, you know, and and and that's why we want to incorporate. Great. The other activities like a day at Speakers Corner where we've met lots of Unitarians and you know and we we'd love to also organise a debate with Dell as we're discussing and planning. So it has been tricky, as Josh said, because we always get initial. Yes. Yes, of course. And then I'll and then I've always had. To ask them. Can you just check with your board that this is OK? They check with the board. It's like, sorry your theology. Sucks. You're not welcome. And and so this has happened like I don't know 20 plus Times Now we've just been asking, asking. Anyway I think we do have a location and to be disclosed soon, very picturesque, very beautiful and I think. Sean Finnegan: Do you? Have a time when it will happen. Josh Jones: Yes, Sir. Was it the last? Daisy Jones: We're thinking July next year, aren't we? Josh Jones: Weekend in July. Daisy Jones: It's July next year. Let's not pinpoint it. Josh Jones: What? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just so we would like to maximise it, cause July, August, September. Is holidays for Europe as well. Is if we can link it in also with maximize your opportunity for the. Americans to come and. Daisy Jones: And good weather because we've. Sean Finnegan: Well, yeah. I was gonna ask about that. Is it the case that in July there might be like a day or two without? Daisy Jones: Had three. Sean Finnegan: Without rain? Yeah. Daisy Jones: No, I I think. I think London gets a bad. I think in the 80s and 90s it rained more than it did now. But I mean we, we've had I say I'd say three weeks of of a. Josh Jones: Yeah, definitely. Daisy Jones: Summer of of. Great. And now it's back to like blankets. Sadly, but no, we would like we would like to do it. Josh Jones: In the summer and yeah, we've reached out to different, you know, through this process, you know, developing relationships with Unitarians in more European countries that I was unaware of. So, you know, one individual in Copenhagen knows some people in Norway, people in Norway. For people in Denmark so that that that is developing and and also here in the UK, we're really developing our our understanding of you know there are different large Unitarian communities. Daisy Jones: Big messianic one. Yeah. And we're kind of quasi messianic. Josh Jones: Aspiring messianic. Yeah. And so, you know, winning. It'll be an opportunity for for people to come and meet and also new, you know, those newly out of the Trinitarian. Faith because. And by next year, there's gonna be a lot more of them, you know? And so it's that chance, that sense of belonging and some. Some good teaching. Sean Finnegan: When you are persecuted or an isolated minority, you know you can put aside a lot of these other issues to to meet together and you know, I think if if the conference can be a place where people. Don't feel pressured to conform to 1 doctrinal package other than Unitarianism can really spur on a camaraderie rather than a competition between groups. Yeah, that's what it's done in the US, and so many of the groups in the US, especially people from my background. Daisy Jones: Yeah, definitely. Sean Finnegan: Not I was never really. In the way but my. Parents were but. They all built these kingdoms. And they built these. Walls as high as high as they. Could and they and it. Was all loyalty based on Ohh are you with this person or? Are you with that? Person and that was my parents generation in my generation. What I've seen overwhelmingly is the tearing down of these walls and overwhelmingly people saying well. Maybe we have some disagreements, but that's OK. I'm not intimidated by you. You're not. Intimidated by me so. Let's work together as much as we can. This is really a period of of building in the unitary movement because we're not persecuted, we're excluded. I can't attend certain conferences. I can't attend certain universities. I can't get published by certain publishers, right, so I'm excluded. But I'm not actively persecuted. OK. And so we have. An opportunity to build, to build coalitions and you know, the UCA is an alliance. Doesn't mean you're free. Churchill and Stalin were an alliance, right? They weren't friends. They didn't even like each other, but they they they were. They were allies in World War 2. So that's really a starting point. Hopefully it goes beyond just sort of like putting up with the other person. So I'd love to see that soft thing happen. Where there's banding together and pooling of resources and and and you know marketing and getting the. Message out because. I think there are, I think you're. Right. There are all these sleep. Others in the churches that are just like, yeah, that never really made sense to me. They just didn't have a word for it. And I think we can agitate for a truth revolution within Christianity. Josh Jones: That's it. Daisy Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think another interesting thing is that the Christadelphian church here have incorporated 1000 Iranians. So not for this conference, because they're English. They've just come and their English isn't. Josh Jones: That you 100. Daisy Jones: Great. We we're not going to spend the whole conference, you know, finding translators, falsely translators. But maybe in the subsequent conferences, you know, we could have a whole bunch of Iranians and Iraqis and people who who found us. Josh Jones: It is wonderful that we have this opportunity to branch out and and and share ideas and stuff like this. Sean Finnegan: Well, let me come back on the the Iranian comment. It's interesting because I did an interview with Sam Tiedeman on africat the Persian. And Afriat is a little known Christian from the 4th century who was a Unitarian. Living in the land of Persia, which is the land of the Iranians who speak Farsi, sounds like the word Persia, right? So you can say to the Iranians when they're at this conference that they can have ethnic pride in Unitarian Christianity going all the way back to the three. Three 20s and three 30s and three 40s, right about the time that Constantine died and Athanasius was agitating in the West. In the East offer how? It was writing his demonstration, so you have to check out that interview there. But there there might be some coming full circle with these Iranians, you. Know they took. A little detour to Islam for, you know, 13 centuries, 15th century. But now they're back, you know. And so I'm so excited about this. Conference. How can people hear more about it? I suppose we'll post it on Unitarian Christian alliance.org. Or or do you have other ways people can find out? Daisy Jones: Yeah, we need to square away the venue officially. So we're in the final stages of that, and then we need a bit more back and forth with the board. Just confirming everything's cool and then we're going to push, push, push. Josh Jones: Yeah, as I. Said so, we're lining up some, some hopefully. Some really some high profile debate. Some practical activities and some activities left and right at the conference that people want to attend that are not bespoke as part of the conference. So you know visits to the British Museum where they've got. This great book Biblical history for. Sean Finnegan: Ohh yeah, I've always. Wanted to go to the British. Daisy Jones: Museum amazing. It's amazing. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah, you know, and you need. Sean Finnegan: You need about a week, right is. Isn't it just so big? Josh Jones: So yeah, and then we'll do, we'll do you know, we'll get stuff out on Facebook on YouTube, we'll pass you around. All the Unitarian commentators so they can put it on their different podcasts and stuff like this. Sean Finnegan: Facebook groups and. Twitter or ex whatever we call this. Josh Jones: Yeah, yeah. Sean Finnegan: This social media now. That sounds really great and is it? Is it? Mainly targeted at. Academics. Or is it more practical or inspirational? Or how would you characterize? Josh Jones: It's gonna be all. Yeah. Yeah. So we would like it to. We're gonna, we're going to model it on the US model. So combination of academic, theological, practical, personal, the whole smorgasbord of of Unitarian. Daisy Jones: And we're and. We're trying to make it as affordable as possible. So initially I think we did want the big grand venue until we got the invoice. And then we were like, oh, actually you. Know what we do? Want students coming and also we want everyone to be able to afford to get both a plane ticket from Europe and to be able to afford to to come. So I think we're we're also looking at catering and house cater all that kind of stuff. So I think we're moving for the first conference, it won't be residential. Which is what we were hoping for at the beginning, but it will be more affordable overall. We hope. Yeah, exactly. Sean Finnegan: It is near London, so we can't. You can't think it's going. Oh yeah. To be too inexpensive, right? It's a big city. Josh Jones: Yeah. Well, you'll be surprised. I said I've I've hopefully applied a bit of my my military planning to this to this little conundrum and a bit of spiritual cunning and wisdom in terms of. And because, you know, we're not blessed with America, we're all your joint. Super churches everywhere. We just we just. Which is which is. Sean Finnegan: Well, anything else you guys wanna share real briefly or say before we close. Josh Jones: Now I just say thank you once again, Sean, you're an inspiration. You know you've made a real difference in people's lives, you know, fulfilling your mission in, in, in, you know, in love and kindness and and with a good dash of humour. So yeah. Which is brilliant. Daisy Jones: Yeah, nothing apart from gifts for today. And we love Christadelphians and we're really excited to be all working together. That's. Josh Jones: It, yeah. Sean Finnegan: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much.